Pianist "Levels"?

[cuberdrift]

Ok, so I'm in the mood for a bit of fun now.

Haven't you ever just entertained the idea of pianist "levels" - like, who is better, this Chinese four year-old playing the 24 Chopin etudes or a more mature Claudio Arrau playing those same pieces? Things like that.

So here's my idea of pianist "levels":

Beginner (Lvl 1) - All he can really do is play with one hand at a time. Does not really have a concept of fingering. An example would be someone who has hardly or never really played the piano before.

Newbie (Lvl 2) - Someone who's taken a few piano lessons or plays by ear very seldom. Can play really simple tunes mostly in C Major. Can perhaps play with both hands - a simple melody with the right, and a very simple accompaniment with the left.

Amateur (Lvl 3) - This guy plays the piano rather often, for fun, but doesn't really challenge himself. Can play most of the well-known tunes and has a decent knowledge of fingering. Example tunes would be Fur Elise, River Flows in You, Canon in D, Clair de Lune, etc.

Enthusiast (Lvl 4) - A person who can play the piano quite well, at least better than most. This guy also probably studies consistently with a piano teacher, but does not really intend to be a professional piano performer. Common examples would be composers or music teachers who have a good knowledge of the keyboard, but aren't really concert pianists. Pieces include Clementi/Kuhnau sonatinas, Bach Sinfonias, Chopin FI/Liszt Liebestraum, Czerny etudes, Chopin Nocturnes, or maybe even the easier Mozart/Beethoven sonatas.

Conservatory Student (Lvl 5) - A piano student in a Conservatory who studies to become a solo piano performer in concert. Piano is a serious discipline for this guy. Not yet quite a professional concert pianist, he knows how it's like to practice multiple hours a day to please a demanding teacher. Sample pieces include Mozart/Beethoven sonatas, Chopin etudes, Liszt Gnomenreigen/Waldesrauchen, Mozart/Beethoven concerti, etc.

Competitor Student (Lvl 6) - A more advanced Conservatory student who joins piano competitions, or otherwise a conservatory student who has already graduated and is further advancing his skill. Not quite advanced enough to teach other conservatory students but has performing experience with multiple orchestras and can handle Rach 3, Prok 2, or the Tchaikovsky B minor. Sample pieces include those three hard ones, plus maybe Liszt TE's, Bach Toccatas, heavy-duty Chopin/Liszt/Brahms sonatas, and the like.

Professional (Lvl 7) - A full-time, dedicated concert pianist who is good enough to teach conservatory students. This guy is highly experienced in playing with orchestras, can sightread actual sonatas or maybe even concerti with considerable ease, and in general can handle really difficult repertoire. This is the skill level required for a pianist to start becoming an actual artist (lol). However, he isn't still quite matured enough to give Master Classes. Examples would include, of course, conservatory teachers, Wladizlu Liberace in his youth, and the like. Pieces are basically the same as Competitor level, but with more mastery - you can also tell him apart from the Level 6 pianists by the fact that he doesn't seem to have much "difficulty" with the hard Rachmaninoff/Tchaikovsky concertos or Liszt/Chopin etudes.

Veteran (Lvl - A highly seasoned concert pianist who has, more often than not, toured extensively in many countries, piano playing is something second-nature already to this level of pianist. Usually, a Veteran pianist would be the head of the piano department in a Conservatory, perhaps teaching other conservatory teachers himself. Already having played most of the standard piano repertoire, a Veteran pianist usually starts exploring other kinds of piano works, including those that aren't that popular. Example pieces would be Scarbo (Ravel), Albeniz Suite Iberia, Beethoven Hammerklavier, etc. Veteran pianists are also experienced enough to give Master Classes to various conservatories or music schools. These guys are also good enough to be considered actual artists, with enough depth to communicate to audiences on a particularly profound level.

Master (Lvl 9) - A pianist of a very high degree, Level 9 pianists are often internationally-renowned and known more or less by many musicians all over the world. They might give Master Classes, but their often busy performing schedule usually makes them rarer Master Class-givers. These are the kinds of pianists you see a lot on YouTube. Technically, a Master pianist is the highest level of pianist, exceeded only by the title of Grandmaster (which is something of an isolated case). Examples would include Kissin, Volodos, Schiff, Lugansky, Berman, Ashkenazy, Berezovsky, Lang, etc. As seasoned artists, their interpretations are often studied and admired by many pianists throughout the world. Repertoire includes anything possible, really.

Grandmaster (Lvl 10) - A pianist and musician of a level so high that they are actually revered by the classical music world, this title is reserved often only to a handful in an entire Century. Their interpretations are transcendent in quality, having a profound impact on the entire pianist world and shaping the way classical piano is performed in the decades to come. These are the guys you think of when you hear the word "pianist". Examples include Arrau, Cziffra, Michaelangeli, Hoffman, Rubinstein, Gould, Horowitz, etc. Repertoire, like the Level 9 pianists, can range from Mozart to Bach to Prokofiev to Boulez to Granados to Alkan to Beethoven to Cage - anyone, really.

What are your thoughts on this?

Lol.

Regards, cuberdrift

[dogperson]

You have omitted one significant level:   The amateur pianist who performs at a concert-pianist level. All you need to do is watch the Adult Amateur Competitions on YouTube to recognize there are many of those lurking:   skills but have not pursued a professional career. 

[adodd81802]

Well i'm Level 4 and occasionally float into level 5 for periods of months where I do nothing but practice the piano.

Problem is the way my life panned out, my full time job takes both most of my time and enthusiasm and so where I could have become a solid 5+, it's now something most likely set aside for retirement or a nice lottery win!

[preludetr]

You have omitted one significant level:   The amateur pianist who performs at a concert-pianist level. All you need to do is watch the Adult Amateur Competitions on YouTube to recognize there are many of those lurking:   skills but have not pursued a professional career. 

Also, the amateur who plays at an advanced but not yet concert level and is striving toward the aforementioned category. There needs to be a distinction between people on a "pro track" with demanding teachers and such, and people who play only for personal enjoyment,

[adodd81802]

Also, the amateur who plays at an advanced but not yet concert level and is striving toward the aforementioned category. There needs to be a distinction between people on a "pro track" with demanding teachers and such, and people who play only for personal enjoyment,

I would agree with this.. but actually, I think that an amateur that plays at a very advanced level (as far as amateur is concerned) the thought process is often the same regardless of where their career potential is. I don't intend to become a concert pianist, or professional, but not necessarily because I wouldn't love to be that.. but because my circumstances don't really allow for it.

I don't think we would honestly find that many people that would wish to invest the time to take their ability to that level on personal drive alone... Maybe i'm wrong, but I think that link is mostly situational rather than personal.

[sumpianodude]

pretty good, lots of fun to read
i do think that you don't give enough credit to the people who play for fun at an incredibly high level. this includes those guys who play at (most likely) 5-8 for fun or as a hobby.
as previously stated, not all pianists become professionals, so give us some credit

[natanica]

I'm with the others here, I miss the category which include the highly-skilled-amateur-who-plays-for-fun but never had the intention of pursuing a professional career due to all kinds of reasons...

[vaniii]

Lol this topic is amusing.

I love these ideas that one reaches levels of play.

[stevensk]

-OMG, whats the point here? 
Pianostreet going stupidstreet?

[j_tour]

-OMG, whats the point here? 
Pianostreet going stupidstreet?

It's so some little kid can pretend he or she has "figured out the big system."

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP came back with a nice theory about how the movie *The Shining* was made by native-american spirits, or whatever.

Sorry, but I like myself being planted right on the same ground everyone else is. 

[danielo]

Come on....it's just a bit of fun.
I confess I don't like this levelling system but that's only because I'm 'down' at Level 4.....think that playing Liszt's Liebestraum is a pretty decent challenge to carry off well.The gaps between the levels get smaller and smaller as you go up the scale....or perhaps greater and greater, depending on your perspective.
Also think that Ashkenazy, if he were to read this, would be pretty pissed to see himself only at Level 9. That guy is one of the greatest in my eyes. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It's a bit of fun; it's also quite simplistic too. My experience is that you often encounter 'unknown' professionals and even on occasion very good amateurs whose playing is very convincing. I've certainly heard pianists in masterclasses play with better and more affecting command of colour and dynamics than 'big name pianist x'. Usually they are more technically fallible, but wrong notes aren't everything. I'd suggest there is more fluidity regarding the levels than one might imagine. The very greatest pianists, on the other hand, often have a special quality which is quite intangible.

[lostinidlewonder]

A master pianist may not necessarily be a master teacher and vice versa. It is often a time factor, a professional concert pianist who relies completely on concerts to earn a living often will have little time or interest to teach. Someone with many teaching commitments may also have little time to perform.

If I could pick on one point, I don't think that fame or being recognized by your peers heightens your ability as a pianist or teacher, it certainly can be an attribute of the worlds top musicians but not necessarily encompasses all the amazing musicians there are out in this world. I knew one pianist who was the wife of a violinist at the West Australian Symphony Orchestra (and I remember he joked he married her because she could play piano and violinists need a good accompanists ), she was seriously an incredible pianist with mean sight reading skills and amazing technique, yet she spent her time raising a family and never performed seriously or taught seriously. She taught from home a handful of students that her time would allow and from what I heard she was also an amazing teacher. She easily could have been on the world stage and famous, but because she wasn't didn't diminish her brilliance, it didn't even cross my mind as her genius was just obvious to me.

[reiyza]

Stuck at level 2(adult beginner). Even so. I love the instrument more than I love my family. Even if piano doesn't return back the love. Very interesting topic tho.

[debussychopin]

Stuck at level 2(adult beginner). Even so. I love the instrument more than I love my family. Even if piano doesn't return back the love. Very interesting topic tho.

Reiyza you are much higher than level 2.

[reiyza]

Nope. Did you base that on my sig? I can play notes only. And could not get pieces to performance level. So yeah. I really believe I'm at level 2.

At any rate, shouldn't murray perahia be considered at level 10. Have any of you heard his godlike etude 25 no. 11. There's a part that he played without pedal and It's the most transcendent thing I ever heard in my entire life!

[beethovenfan01]

Considering 9/10 pianists ... I would mark Perhia as a nine, Ashkenazy as a ten.

On a personal level ... I am at level four/five-ish. I'm still working early advanced repertoire (like the Nocturnes) as well as a few more advanced pieces (Moonlight 3rd Movement, Prokofiev's Temptations, Ocean Etude), but I practice as much as I can, which amounts to about two hours a day (when school and other things allow). So, am I a four or a five? Ambitious pianist who still has a lot to learn.

[dogperson]

Considering 9/10 pianists ... I would mark Perhia as a nine, Ashkenazy as a ten.

On a personal level ... I am at level four/five-ish. I'm still working early advanced repertoire (like the Nocturnes) as well as a few more advanced pieces (Moonlight 3rd Movement, Prokofiev's Temptations, Ocean Etude), but I practice as much as I can, which amounts to about two hours a day (when school and other things allow). So, am I a four or a five? Ambitious pianist who still has a lot to learn.

That is the problem, among others, with a scoring categorization such as this:  since you are not in a conservatory, or concert pianist,  the highest score any of us in that category can have is a 4.   This should be used for amusement only, not for ranking

[cuberdrift]

Okay, I didn't put "advanced amateurs" because I don't personally know that many people who I can say are on the level of Evgeny Kissin who do NOT have a professional pianist career.

So it is entirely possible to have some really good amateur pianists out there, but for convenience's sake, I put the professionals on a higher level.

I see that some users here are starting to feel a bit insecure, lol. My list isn't a be-all-and-end-all, ha-ha. 

Oh, and about Ashkenazy being a 10...maybe.

But for some reason just because I don't hear him mentioned as often as Horowitz or Rubinstein I didn't put him in 10.

Remember, that my listing was based on convenience and "fun", so I sort of listed the most popular pianists as the greatest.

Also, I'd put maybe Franz Liszt at Level 10. I remember reading somewhere that someone who had heard Liszt play said Horowitz played just as good.

[visitor]

In addition to not categorizing high level amateur (just listen to playing and interviews of the cliburn amateur competitors on their yt chann.), op left pit the all important level i am in.

I am a level zero, sub level derp. Im working on getting to level 9,000.

[cuberdrift]

I am a level zero, sub level derp. Im working on getting to level 9,000.

Even before you said that, I kept remembering the Hayden Christensen Star Wars quote he said to Christopher Lee.

"My powers have doubled since the last time we've met, Count!"

[stevensk]

Next topic:

1) The five ways to sit on the piano bench

2) The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill

3)  The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill and haircolor. This could be very complex, important and time consuming 

4) What about haircolor and shape of the nose? THAT must be a very neglected topic here on the pianostreet!
 

[sumpianodude]

Next topic:

1) The five ways to sit on the piano bench

2) The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill

3)  The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill and haircolor. This could be very complex, important and time consuming 

4) What about haircolor and shape of the nose? THAT must be a very neglected topic here on the pianostreet!
 

you forgot eye size and color, as well as ear shape and general body mass, center of mass, arm/leg length/placement, head shape, brain mass, and organ placement...

[avanchnzel]

Next topic:

1) The five ways to sit on the piano bench

2) The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill

3)  The five ways to sit on the piano bench relative to pianist skill and haircolor. This could be very complex, important and time consuming 

4) What about haircolor and shape of the nose? THAT must be a very neglected topic here on the pianostreet!
 

With regards to the bench...

[richard black]

Fun idea, but there are so many complications. For instance, I'm a professional pianist, and a successful one too (the amount of work I do is limited by the number of hours in the day I'm not asleep, basically), and I can sight-read entire sonatas etc. - but my actual playing level is hardly better than conservatoire student. I'm typical, in those ways, as an opera repetiteur.

And what about famous soloists who can hardly sight-read?

And so on...

[lisztfan]

so uh i guess i'm a barely level 8 (scarbo is my hardest) but gonna major in cs instead of piano? by this standard

[lelle]

so uh i guess i'm a barely level 8 (scarbo is my hardest) but gonna major in cs instead of piano? by this standard

Good idea. I honestly think only people who absolutely adore playing and practicing and cannot imagine themselves doing anything else with their life should go for a major in piano!

[dizzyfingers]

so uh i guess i'm a barely level 8 (scarbo is my hardest) but gonna major in cs instead of piano? by this standard

Ravel's Scarbo?  That's way over level 8 (in ABRSM).

[lostinidlewonder]

Ravel's Scarbo?  That's way over level 8 (in ABRSM).

He's going off dizzyfingers level definitions in the op.