How to be conscious of multiple voices simultaneously?

[wanghankun]

When I play Bach, I tend to be focused on the treble staff and the highest voice. The bass staff is not completely neglected, I can play all the right notes with the right rhythm. However, listening back to my own recordings I find the bassline lacking in "structure" as if it does not flow. I think what I want to achieve is Glenn Gould's clarity of the different voices and to feel the structure of the whole piece.
How can I achieve that?
Thank you!

[themeandvariation]

First try playing Just the bass line While Singing along the pitches while you play.
Do this several times.  Then play your piece - (not bass solo - but All parts played) and try to sing along the bass line while playing.. Or try a segment of the piece while doing this - - even couple of lines. )
Keep trying this procedure until you are successful.. It may take a couple of days or more.

Then, when it works, try it with 3 and 4 and even 5 part writing as well.  It is important to always engage the voice through all the parts given.. It trains the ear to Hear them.. and thus, be able to control them..
Good luck, and start singing.

[wanghankun]

Thank you for your answer! I often find it hard to play the bass line alone, because there are many held notes so it is hard to keep track of the time. How can I overcome this?

[outin]

I often find it hard to play the bass line alone, because there are many held notes so it is hard to keep track of the time. How can I overcome this?

Well it just is...Some voices are easier to keep track than others. Are you looking for some miracle quick fix? Don't think there is one...it's practice and more practice. You can use  a metronome or count in you head to keep track.

[wanghankun]

Thank you.

[brogers70]

For Bach fugues I do this. First I write out the fugue by hand with each voice on a separate staff. That in itself is helpful, because all the sudden you can easily see all the fugal entrances and fugal devices like augmentation or inversion. Then I listen to a recording of the fugue many times, each time using my written out version to help me follow just one voice. Then I do the same, singing along with each voice. Then I play each voice separately on the piano. By that point I can really hear each voice clearly and I know them well. Then I learn the fingerings, hands separate, and practice hands separate trying to keep the distinction between voices when there is more than one in a hand. Then I put hands together. The copying out does take some time, but since it takes me a long time to learn a fugue anyway, the time required for copying it out and listening voice by voice is pretty short compared with the weeks I'll be working on learning the fugue anyway; and I think it makes the whole process quicker in the long run.

[dcstudio]

First try playing Just the bass line While Singing along the pitches while you play.
Do this several times.  Then play your piece - (not bass solo - but All parts played) and try to sing along the bass line while playing.. Or try a segment of the piece while doing this - - even couple of lines. )
Keep trying this procedure until you are successful.. It may take a couple of days or more.

Then, when it works, try it with 3 and 4 and even 5 part writing as well.  It is important to always engage the voice through all the parts given.. It trains the ear to Hear them.. and thus, be able to control them..
Good luck, and start singing.

YES... SING SING SING!

[j_tour]

For Bach fugues I do this. First I write out the fugue by hand with each voice on a separate staff. That in itself is helpful, because all the sudden you can easily see all the fugal entrances and fugal devices like augmentation or inversion. Then I listen to a recording of the fugue many times, each time using my written out version to help me follow just one voice. Then I do the same, singing along with each voice. Then I play each voice separately on the piano. By that point I can really hear each voice clearly and I know them well. Then I learn the fingerings, hands separate, and practice hands separate trying to keep the distinction between voices when there is more than one in a hand. Then I put hands together. The copying out does take some time, but since it takes me a long time to learn a fugue anyway, the time required for copying it out and listening voice by voice is pretty short compared with the weeks I'll be working on learning the fugue anyway; and I think it makes the whole process quicker in the long run.

Apologies for quoting the whole post -- it's good, though, and I agree.  I've only played one fugue, back when I was a kid, without either making or finding an open score. 

As a practice technique, I also find it's effective to, once you have the open score, just play a few of the voices all the way through, ideally with the fingerings you'd use, but maybe not if you just are interested in studying the fugue or are truly memorizing each voice for singing in a mental-practice stage.  It kind of gives your ego a little boost if you can play a supposedly difficult fugue at a desirable tempo, even if it's missing a few voices.

That said, I wonder just what the limit is to truly hearing many voices polyphonically.  I know some people are better than others, whether through practice or some neurological patterns originating elsewhere, but surely there must be some kind of hard limit.  I doubt there is an answer, so until then, I'll go on like everybody else and keep trying to improve.

[mrcreosote]

I'm 64, playing since 6, still can't do it.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Sing all the voices while playing the other voices

[invictious]

Deconstructionist trends are en vogue now, with hipsters as the impetus for this movement. Why labour the technique of the performers and the minds of the audience? Why not impress your audience with some "Deconstructed Counterpoint" by playing each voice separately and sequentially. The listener would have to utilise their own imagination to meld the voices together. That way you can also add your own artistic touch. Imagine all that interpretative space in the mind of the audience! Now that is true art!

 


(just kidding don't listen to me)

[mike_lang]

When I play Bach, I tend to be focused on the treble staff and the highest voice. The bass staff is not completely neglected, I can play all the right notes with the right rhythm. However, listening back to my own recordings I find the bassline lacking in "structure" as if it does not flow. I think what I want to achieve is Glenn Gould's clarity of the different voices and to feel the structure of the whole piece.
How can I achieve that?
Thank you!

Try playing one voice at time (taking care to use the fingering you're using when it's in context), or for more of a challenge, playing one voice and miming the others . . . If your bass voice isn't shaped, you haven't spent enough time thinking about what you want . . . so do that, then practice the full texture listening to your bass voice . . . for that matter, play the piece through once listening to/tracking each voice one at a time (no matter its role at a given time).

[ted]

The title of the thread seems to imply that the existence of clearly defined simultaneous events in a piece of music is dependent on their conscious perception as such at their time of generation. I doubt this is the case, any more than an improviser supposedly having to consciously perceive every single event before it occurs. If the listening mind hears simultaneous events, then whether or not the generating mind heard them at the conscious level doesn't matter.

[themeandvariation]

Ted offers breaking news:
  "then whether or not the generating mind heard them at the conscious level doesn't matter."

The performer doesn't need to hear it.  What a relief!  (it's just too hard!) 

Don't know about you, but i always seek out performers who are unconnected to what they are doing