How to play without looking at the keys?

[richardparkokay]

My teacher has recently introduced me to Chopin music, starting me off with the Waltz in A minor(Opus Posthumous) Quite disappointed because I really wanted to go on the Bach Inventions. Oh well 

Anyways, I've got the song down for the most part at a slow, preliminary pace.

To play it at tempo, I memorized the left hand patterns and notes. The problem here is, I have to STARE at my left hand position itself on the A to the A to the D to the A and so on. I'm starting to get irritated because you don't see professionals stare down at their keys when they play. No! They close their eyes! It is strikingly odd to me - how? I mean I did start working on this song just a few days ago.. but, still hits me as a very good question.

Considering my personal problem, how can I train my hands to maneuver around the keys without having to make myself look at the keys? I really do enjoy closing my eyes when I play, but after I hit a wrong key from faulty knowledge of the location of the keys, I have to open up my eyes in disappointment.
Do people just "play enough" to get the knowledge of where the keys are? I'm having a hard time believing that's really the only way.. Just play enough music and your hands will know. I was told I should just play the piece till my hand muscles memorize the notes on their own.. is that sound info?
Blah. Basically, how do I practice playing without looking at the keys and not needing eyesight to find the appropriate notes?

[outin]

My teacher has recently introduced me to Chopin music, starting me off with the Waltz in A minor(Opus Posthumous) Quite disappointed because I really wanted to go on the Bach Inventions. Oh well 

Anyways, I've got the song down for the most part at a slow, preliminary pace.

To play it at tempo, I memorized the left hand patterns and notes. The problem here is, I have to STARE at my left hand position itself on the A to the A to the D to the A and so on. I'm starting to get irritated because you don't see professionals stare down at their keys when they play. No! They close their eyes! It is strikingly odd to me - how? I mean I did start working on this song just a few days ago.. but, still hits me as a very good question.

Considering my personal problem, how can I train my hands to maneuver around the keys without having to make myself look at the keys? I really do enjoy closing my eyes when I play, but after I hit a wrong key from faulty knowledge of the location of the keys, I have to open up my eyes in disappointment.
Do people just "play enough" to get the knowledge of where the keys are? I'm having a hard time believing that's really the only way.. Just play enough music and your hands will know. I was told I should just play the piece till my hand muscles memorize the notes on their own.. is that sound info?
Blah. Basically, how do I practice playing without looking at the keys and not needing eyesight to find the appropriate notes?

As far as I have seen pianists do look at the keyboard a lot when playing from memory, even if they may occasionally close their eyes. Depends on the material.

In waltzes you need to learn to do the left hand leaps without watching the hand all the time. So practice, after a while it does become automatic.
But I do think some peripheral vision is still used also to keep track, at least I do. But it's kind of unconscious.

If I read you correctly you have practiced the piece a few days? It just takes a little longer that that to get things ingrained. There are some special methods on how to train left hand leaps, maybe google.

[louispodesta]

The subject of my reply is mythology versus reality.

Accordingly, my former coach (with a degree from Nelita True at Eastman) told me that he has turned pages for endless accompanists who "pawed" their left hand when then performed in public.   And then my late teacher Dr. Jack Roberts (DMA from Gyorgy Sandor at Michigan), taught me to just play it a hundred times with the left hand, and that would do it.

When I pressed him by telephone in later years to teach me classical improvisation/keyboard harmonic analysis, he blurted out that he was just a "seat of your pants" pianist.  That means he was basically playing by ear, and getting everyone else to think he was some kind of photographic memory genius.

The point is that:  Claudio Arrau, Artur Rubinstein, and (if you watch the videos closely), Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli all stared at their hands (eyes squinted or not)!

[brogers70]

Blah. Basically, how do I practice playing without looking at the keys and not needing eyesight to find the appropriate notes?

Others here are quite right that most pianists do indeed look at their hands sometimes. Still, it's helpful not to have to watch them like a hawk. I had the same problem. One thing that helped was doing all my scales and arpeggios with my eyes closed for a few months. It doesn't fix everything, but it definitely helps. Another thing I've done is to sight read new, very easy pieces with my eyes fixed on the music. I find the starting notes by feeling the groups of lack keys, and go very, very slowly, without ever letting myself look at my hands. That also won't fix everything, and it may not be the most efficient way to learn to sight read, but it did, gradually give me the confidence that I could find notes without looking most of the time.

After doing those two things I eventually noticed that I was no longer automatically memorizing everything I was learning and that I was spending much more time with my eyes on the music than before and that as I was learning new pieces I was finding it much easier to manage,say, left hand jumps in a waltz accompaniment without always looking at my left hand. It was a slow process, but it did get better over time.

[outin]

From eye camera experiments it seems that pianist do not really look at their hands but the piano keys. And I have noticed that it is often enough to quickly glance at the target keys from the corner of my eyes and the hand goes there automatically. The eyes are already on the next position when the notes are played.

[louispodesta]

The subject of my reply is mythology versus reality.

Accordingly, my former coach (with a degree from Nelita True at Eastman) told me that he has turned pages for endless accompanists who "pawed" their left hand when then performed in public.   And then my late teacher Dr. Jack Roberts (DMA from Gyorgy Sandor at Michigan), taught me to just play it a hundred times with the left hand, and that would do it.

When I pressed him by telephone in later years to teach me classical improvisation/keyboard harmonic analysis, he blurted out that he was just a "seat of your pants" pianist.  That means he was basically playing by ear, and getting everyone else to think he was some kind of photographic memory genius.

The point is that:  Claudio Arrau, Artur Rubinstein, and (if you watch the videos closely), Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli all stared at their hands (eyes squinted or not)!

Based on the last two posts, why would anyone who has ever played the piano (and this is the true definition of a Troll) believe that when I referred to multiple Concert Pianists "staring at their hands" that this would mean they are staring at their hands and fingers.

If so, your credibility, as a technique student, is zero.  As a Troll, you are 100% correct.

Of course you are looking at the particular keys to come, hopefully (as with Rubenstein) in anticipation of the next section to come.

And, per the OP, this is a very big deal.  As one of my coaches Dr. Thomas Mark quotes Edna Golandsky as saying: You can't miss (a note) what you are right over.

Further, as Dr. Mark suggests, the overall (paraphrasing) hand/body choreography of placing your hands, lower arm, upper arm, shoulder, and upper chest structure in line with a particular piece is crucially important.

What I am saying is that your eyes are a significant part of that OVERALL process.  And, yes it is a comprehensive, in my opinion, process.

[dogperson]

@Louis
I agree that concert pianists do watch their hands as part of the process ---  but isn't this comment missing the orignal question?   This is a teenager who  has to memorize the left hand of a nocturne because he cannot play it by reading the music..... 

if you use the example of the concert pianist,  he/she could read a new score,  glance at the hands when needed, BUT would not need to memorize the score to play the music.   

[iansinclair]

Sometimes you look at your hands -- or, rather, at where you want your fingers to go.  You shouldn't need to watch them get there, but you surely may need a little help to get them there.  I can think of any number of places where that is true.

Other times, you don't look at your hands at all -- you look at the music.  Or the conductor.  Or the choir.  Or the pretty girl/handsome guy in the third row.  Or whatever.

There is no rule.  Do I look at my hands sometimes?  You'd better believe it.  But since I don't truly memorise most of my music, do I look elsewhere from time to time?  Better believe that, too.  And if it's organ I'm playing, not piano, I look at my feet from time to time, too!

[outin]

Based on the last two posts, why would anyone who has ever played the piano (and this is the true definition of a Troll) believe that when I referred to multiple Concert Pianists "staring at their hands" that this would mean they are staring at their hands and fingers.

If so, your credibility, as a technique student, is zero.  As a Troll, you are 100% correct.

What made you think the last post was directed to you? It is a common misunderstanding that pianists look at their hands and from experiments it seems that less experienced pianists actually do that.

And talk about trolls

[louispodesta]

What made you think the last post was directed to you? It is a common misunderstanding that pianists look at their hands and from experiments it seems that less experienced pianists actually do that.

And talk about trolls

"and from experiments it seems that less experienced pianists actually do that."

No they do not!  And, as a pianist/philosopher (GROAN!), just what part of the hand/finger/wrist/upper structure are they looking at?

I want, as an empiricist, to know exactly just what part of the anatomical hand physiology they have (through experiment), actually/visually looked at?

As someone who has a physiologically (very nerve damaged left hand), I always look at my left hand (that means the "ACTUALL NOTES") associated with that hand.  Why would anyone in their right mind look at a hand/fingers?

In that I am sharing some of this discourse with my Concerto coach (with a DMA from Peabody), she is mildly interested in this subject because she does not believe the problem (absent sound piano technique) does not exist.  Respectfully to her, I think it does.

[outin]

"and from experiments it seems that less experienced pianists actually do that."

No they do not!  And, as a pianist/philosopher (GROAN!), just what part of the hand/finger/wrist/upper structure are they looking at?

It seems you have not seem the video where eye camera was used to compare a student and professional pianist and where their eyes were focused at while playing. I cannot post a link unfortunately, but google might be able to help.

Is it common practice for pianist/philosophers to jump into conclusions without some research first? I'm not really familiar with such a discipline...

[richardparkokay]

Sorry for the late reply. I don't have much time to post here.
I believe I'm thinking too ideally.. if that's even possible.  But still, it's a little sad that I have to often  stare at my hands. The 'glaring down' has become.. more relieved, just a bit. At a slow pace I can read the music but I have to perpetually place my eyes on the music, then on the keys, and repeat.

Maybe it's because this is my first time playing a piece carrying such a LARGE range, really low As and stuff. I also have to mention that my sight reading is not too good, I can read notes relatively close to the staff, but once we put in more then two ledger lines, it can take me like 10 seconds to identify a note. My treble reading is very good, but my bass clef reading is something to laugh at. I still have trouble identifying notes on the bass staff... I should practice reading notes. I've been playing for a year and 2 months or so now.
Part of the reason why I memorized the piece was because in the book Fundamentals of Piano Practice by Chang, Chang suggests memorizing a piece before playing it. I played the piece hands separate slowly, then very slowly hands together, then memorized the piece and here I am. But that does not excuse my TERRIBLE action of looking at the keys.

Either way, no matter if it is my first long-range piece, all the more better to attend to working on what I have trouble on it. Namely, note reading and training my fingers to more accurately find the keys.
Rather then staring at the keys, I think I should start glancing every so often. I need to tend to shortening the glare time.
And yes, I did make a little error - by staring at my hands I mean the keys..! Excuse my adolescence. Adults use such precise English!

And, per the OP, this is a very big deal.  As one of my coaches Dr. Thomas Mark quotes Edna Golandsky as saying: You can't miss (a note) what you are right over.

Further, as Dr. Mark suggests, the overall (paraphrasing) hand/body choreography of placing your hands, lower arm, upper arm, shoulder, and upper chest structure in line with a particular piece is crucially important.

What I am saying is that your eyes are a significant part of that OVERALL process.  And, yes it is a comprehensive, in my opinion, process.

Can you explain Golandsky's quote? I'm a little confused.
How can my body be 'in line' with a particular piece? Is it intuition? Feeling?

Thanks for the help guys!

[louispodesta]

"Can you explain Golandsky's quote? I'm a little confused.
How can my body be 'in line' with a particular piece? Is it intuition? Feeling?"

To preface my remark, the late Charles Aschbrenner of Hope College (through his Pulse Patterning Course) taught all of his students to align their bodies within a particular section of a piece.  This was not only from side to side, but also forward and backward.  His method utilized what are anatomically known as your "sit bones." https://www.pulsepatterning.com/

I strongly urge the OP and everyone else to buy this product of lifelong research into body positioning.  It is cheap, and also unfortunately, one of a kind in piano pedagogy.  This former Dalcroze Eurhytmics expert, (student of Nadia Boulanger, Robert Casadesus, and Adele Marcus) had hundreds of musicians show up for his memorial service, and for a reason!

Additionally, Thomas Mark implores all of his students to (note by note) "choreograph" each piece.  And, that means to position not only your entire body ("What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body"), but also each finger in the middle of each note.  Blocking is a rudimentary way to do this, but it also has to be combined with a fluid (Taubman/Golandsky/Mark) shaping follow-up. https://pianomap.com/

Per the OP: hey, did you think all the grand masters at all of the world's conservatories had all of this figured out before?

NO, THEY HAD AND HAVE NOT!

[tenk]

I strongly urge the OP and everyone else to buy this product...

So you've finally progressed from having people PM you to try and sell them crap, to openly hawking it in your forums posts.

PS - still waiting on a video of you sight-reading one of those 47 piano concertos you learned!

For others' reference : https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=62528.msg668917#msg668917

However, I came up with a methodology of my own which allowed me to then sight-read the notes to 47 piano concertos (two a day) in the next five years.

[indianajo]

I don't look at my hands on pieces I have complete.  Neither on pieces I sight read within my competence, ie hymns out of the hymnal.
I didn't go to any expensive conservatory, nor follow any famous method. Mrs. Jelson wasn't famous, but she expected me to look at the audience at recital.  Good advice. 
Read what brodgers70 said, & follow.  You practice easy stuff without looking at your hands, and then you work up to more complicated pieces.
Ball players don't look at the hands, due to all the practice.  The body is good at this, practice makes perfect. 
One key was always sitting right in front of middle C.  This give the body a kinesthetic reference point. 
I was playng a seven octave piece at recital, age 11.  Lecuona's Malaguena.  Not difficult at all if you practice enough.  Mrs. Jelson's method - never repeat a mistake.  You make a mistake, mark it, slow down enough that you don't.  then play that speed several times until you dare speed it up a little. 
I never learned fast, but I learned completely.
Good fortune in your endeavors. 

[michael_c]

It seems you have not seem the video where eye camera was used to compare a student and professional pianist and where their eyes were focused at while playing. I cannot post a link unfortunately, but google might be able to help.

Here goes: Where Pianists Look When They Play.

Yes, experienced pianist may well look at the keys or their hands, but most of the time they don't have to. Being able to play without looking at the keyboard gives you all the freedom to look at something else (the music you are sight reading, the conductor you should be following, the singer you are accompanying, the person you are trying to seduce...) and makes you feel more secure when performing.

For the OP, who asks how to practice playing without looking at the keys, here are some tips:

– Take a short passage, just a few bars, close your eyes and play it, slowly. If you make a mistake, don't open your eyes! If the reflex of opening your eyes is too strong, put on a blindfold. Now use your ears: was the wrong note to high or too low? Feel your way around the keyboard until you hit the right note or chord.

– When you've got through the passage once, with however many mistakes, start again. Do you make the same mistakes? Is there a point where you constantly reach too far for a note, or not far enough? Learn to correct your aim.

When you're capable of getting through the passage correctly at a slow speed with your eyes closed, try it with eyes open: how does it feel?

[outin]

Yes, experienced pianist may well look at the keys or their hands, but most of the time they don't have to. Being able to play without looking at the keyboard gives you all the freedom to look at something else (the music you are sight reading, the conductor you should be following, the singer you are accompanying, the person you are trying to seduce...) and makes you feel more secure when performing.

Of course, but often when playing from memory looking at the keyboard serves an important function, seeing the patterns is part of memorizing the music. Just like when reading music the eyes look ahead at the keyboard to where the music is going, not at the hands which will already know what to do.

[larrys]

A funny thing I have discovered. If I'm playing a piece that I have in my memory (Song for Guy) I look at the keys a lot. But if I'm playing from a sheet (simple exercises for me) I find I can play without looking at my hands. Probably down to years of playing keyboards!

[beethovenfan01]

You just kind of have to feel it. Some of the other exercises mentioned here are helpful.

However, I've eventually quit forcing myself to not look at my hands. My reasoning goes: if I'm not looking at the music when I play, it must be memorized. So it's good. But this only works, of course, if you're able to not look at your hands first (for example when sight-reading or just learning the notes).

[richardparkokay]

I think as time goes by I'll be able to obtain more knowledge of the piano and its keys. It's not something I can rush. After all, I haven't played a lot of really profound songs that have you move about the keyboard. This is my first time.
I will try the exercises mentioned on this board. Thank you everyone for all the help! Cleared up most of my questions.

[pianocat3]

A pointer from my teacher...one of your fingers should stay in contact with the keyboard at all times so you know where you are, accurately. I was lifting my whole hand off the keys when doing a lot of joyful little staccato jumps and she watched to see why I was missing the notes, and that was why. The problem immediately went away when I kept a finger on the keys.

 Another tip.is always sit exactly in the same spot. I center my body in front of D, myself.

I was really bad about looking. Practicing on easier material (I'm working on my sight reading) has helped a lot because I just play them a couple times and move on. If I make a mistake, it doesn't matter because they are not going to be performed by me, ever.

Oh and finally, she says you may have to program in your looks for big jumps. And use peripheral vision. I'm getting on in years and needed piano eyeglasses, and she said get the biggest ones you can (looks like eyeglasses styles are moving away from tiny lenses finally. Hurray!!)

I have worked on this a LOT. It is a bad habit of mine. Improvement is slow but steady.

[timothy42b]

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/grill-room/watch-mcginley-chips-blindfolded/

[lostinidlewonder]

My teacher has recently introduced me to Chopin music, starting me off with the Waltz in A minor(Opus Posthumous) ....
Anyways, I've got the song..............

A SONG is something sung with a voice, although you could argue the piano sings its music it is not really the correct way to define what you should call PIECES. Don't worry it is a common error.

...how can I train my hands to maneuver around the keys without having to make myself look at the keys?

It comes with time getting used to the space of the piano in front of you. When I play some pianos which have slightly narrower keys sometimes I hit wrong notes and must look at my fingers, it's very annoying, the difference just has to be a faction of a millimeter per key but it causes a large change over distance.

When doing waltz type LH patterns it can be challenging to play without looking as you are doing leaps. I wouldn't get too fussed over not being able to do it completely blind. Sometimes it is useful to feel your fingers replacing the position of fingers that were in the place previously, you can make blind movements easier then.