B Major Scale question

[HarleyMan]

Based on all of my readings of this forum (and the advice of a co-worker who plays) I am working on scales...starting with B Major,  and then proceeding generally as was outlined by Bernhard in:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=print;num=1079372061


Although it felt somewhat simplistic or childish at first to be a 54 year old guy sitting at the piano playing scales with one finger and saying notes, intervals and repeating "root..major 2nd..major 2nd..minor 2nd..major 2nd..major 2nd..major 2nd..minor 2nd" aloud, I live alone, so no one heard me anyway.  LOL    
 

Then, starting with hs, the right hand was simple and easy using the fingering 123-12345 or 123-12341 (in prep for 2 octaves).  In fact after repeating this many times, my RH fingers do feel much more confident on those very narrow and slippery little black keys. 

But the LH is different.  I'm right handed and the left is weak with little dexterity.
Using the fingering 4321-4321 I began working on the left hand last night.  But after watching what my hand and arm were doing closely I stopped.  My left elbow wants to fly outward away from my body turning the hand for the 1-4 on E to F#.  Is this a 'bad habit' ?   If I keep my arm (elbow) quiet then the 4th finger seems to miss that slippery little F# key a lot.

For a beginner, should elbows and arms remain very quiet when playing all scales?   Or are movements of the arms/elbows as described above natural when playing some scales like B major with this fingering?    I've been playing C major since I was very young and both arms do remain very quiet on this one.



And one other question about custom/protocol on this forum:  Is it considered too elementary to ask for a bit of help with fingering on two or three bars of a moderately simple piece that I am determined to learn?  It's a particularly enchanting (but copyrighted) arrangement of Greensleeves by S. J Wallace that I found a few weeks ago at:  https://www.music-scores.com/ 
so posting it would be a NO-NO I am sure. 


TIA,
 Harley

PS. My goal/aim for learning all the major scales:  I want my fingers to stop missing or slipping off of those narrow little black keys when I play the music I enjoy.

[chopinguy]

One solution to your problem with the black keys:

How are you playing them?  Are your fingers curved when you play the black keys, or are they more open?

When playing black keys, it's a good idea to open the finger to extend to the key rather than move the whole arm.  It's a quicker, smaller, and more precise movement.  Plus, there's the advantage of getting a better grip on the key.

Here's what I mean: if your finger is curved, the small tip of the finger is the only contact point to the key.  However, if you extend you finger to play black keys, you will instead contact the key with the much larger pad of the finger.  This should help with black keys in general.

About that B major scale, try doing a wrist swivel.  See if you can keep the elbow quiet, but swivel your wrist so that your 4th finger gets a good chance at that F#.  You've mentioned that you have a good grip on the C major scale, so when you play it watch your wrist when you do the finger crossing.  That same movement from the wrist should be very similar to the one you use on the B major scale.

Hope all of that makes sense and good luck!

[richard w]

Chopin guy has given you good advice for the B major scale. As for Greensleves, by all means ask for assistance with the fingering.

[Brian Healey]

Another suggestion:

Try practicing the scales with your eyes closed (or simply without looking at your hands). Of course, slowly at first, making sure that you are playing accurately. I've found that doing this helps the fingers to "find" the keys by themselves, and it may help you with the problem of missing those black keys. You won't be relying on your eyes for "aiming", so you'll develope a better overall feel for the layout of the keyboard.

And don't feel foolish. The only fools are those who use age as excuse, like "I wish I had started the piano when I was younger, but it's too late now." It's never too late, and props to you for realizing that.

Peace,
Bri

[xvimbi]

With respect to scales, I believe the way it is tought by Hanon and Czerny is dangerous. They both instruct the pupil to keep everything rigid and have only the fingers move.

I for one don't think there is anything wrong with elbow movements. I would even go so far as to say that they are in fact good. I believe one should involve as many body parts in one's playing. This distributes the load on joints and muscles. It also keeps the movements around any given joint to a minimum if distributed well. As a result, it will look like nothing is moving whereas everything in fact is moving.

For scales, or any such passage, the movements are dictated by the music while still observing human anatomy. That is, when the passage is fast, movements will be small, whereas when the passage is slow, movements can be a bit larger. For a RH descending scale (or LH ascending scale), when going from finger 1 to 3 (or 4), I play the thumb by rotating the hand so that the thumb hits the key while it is itself held fairly rigid. I rarely move the thumb from its joint, which is a very inefficient and unnatural movement. Then, when going on to finger 3 (or 4), I keep rotating the hand around the thumb (still on the key) while moving the elbow outwards. This places fingers 3 or 4 directly above the appropriate key. All I have to do is drop the hand and go on with my scale. Of course, the wrist is constantly moving up and down a bit (Czerny would kick me out).

Try it.

Finally, no question is too simple. In fact, the seemingly simple questions are often the most important ones. Your question has far-reaching implications and as such is in fact not a simple question at all. It is actually a very complicated question.

[aznviolet]

When I practise scales, etc. I always practise my left hand a lot more than my right hand.  Since you are right handed it is a lot easier to play with your right hand, the left hand tends to get neglected.  when your left hand is as confident as your right hand, playing hands together is much easier.

Also, when I practise scales, etc. I practise loudly and slowly.

I hope that helps!

[RappinPhil]

As a student of the piano for a little over a year, I remember very clearly starting my first scale, so I can really identify with you azn. Though my first scale was C Major...

As a little encouragment for learning all the scales, and learning them properly so that you acquire great benefit from them, let me turn to someone a tad more eminent, knowing, and prestigous than I. Read further to discover what Josef Hofmann, one of the finest virtuosos of the 20th century had to say about scales.

"The question of whether special technical studies of an arbitrary nature, such as scale studies, should be extensively used is one which has been widely debated, and I fear will be debated for years to come. Let us understand first, there is a wide difference between studying and practicing. They resemble each other only in so far as they both require energy and time. Many sincere and ambitious students make the great mistake of confounding these two very essential factors of pianistic success. Study and practice really are quite widely removed from each other, and at the same time they are virtually inseparable. The difference lies in the amount and quality of the two elements. Practice means a large number of repititions, with a fair amount of attention to mere correctness of notes, fingering, etc. Under ordinary circumstances and conditions it usually means a great sacrifice of time and a comparatively small investment of mentality.

Study, on the contrary, implies first of all mental activity of the highest and most concentrated type. It presupposes absolute accuracy in notes, time, fingering, etc., and implies the closest possible attention to those things which are generally, though erroneously, beauty, dynamic shading, rhythmical matters, and the like. Some have the happy gift of combining practice with study, but this is rare.

Hence, in the question of scale exercices, etc., if the word "study" is meant in the true sense, I can only say that the study of scales is more than necessary - it is indispensable. The pedagogical experts of the world are practically unanimous upon this subject. The injuction, "study," applies not only to scales, but to all forms of technical discipline, which only too often are "practiced" without being studied. I will not deny that mere practicing, as I have defined it, may bring some little benefit, but this benefit is gained at an enormous expenditure of time and physical and mental exertion. Oh! the endless leagues that ambitious fingers have traveled over ivory keys! Only too often they race like automobiles on a race - course -in a circle- and after having gone innumerable miles, and spent a tremendous amount of energy, exhausted and worn, with very little to show for their work, and no nearer their real goal than when they started. The proportion in which mental and physical activity is compounded, determines, to my mind, the distinction between practicing and real study. One might also say that the proportion in which real study enters into the daily work of the student deteremines the success of the student."

[lostinidlewonder]

In my experience people start waving their arms about when their fingers start doing things wrong. Like trying to move under the hand or stretch for a note.

Without repeating advice what others said, heres some extra stuff that might help.

Chopin's considered the black keys as springs, since black keys favour a natural, comfortable position of the second third and fourth fingers in both hands and they seem to hold the hand up like springs more than the thumb or little finger. Hence the Major scales of  B, F#, and Db (Right hand fingering 1-2-3-1, 2-3-4-1 and  2-3-1  respectively) highlight this relationship. Play through these scales and feel the positional shifts in the hand, and the finger groups utilised.

You should feel the groups of notes where the hand does not have to move. For instance in B major scale, 1,2,3 is played without a positional shift in the hand, but as soon as we play the 4th note with 1 we must carry the hand across. How we do this is essential. We must maintain a natural Hand form which chopin considered to be(Rh12345 on E GbAbBb B, and LH on   F GbAbBb C), so this means carrying the thumb under the hand is not ideal as commonly taught. As soon as the thumb comes under the hand we constrict the hand and close it up. The thumb must move from above and it is the carrying over of the hand which brings the thumb above its note. Carry over means what? It means, the hand carry's the thumb. This goes for any other finger that is the first note of a positional shift.

   The thumbs action then will be a natural downward movement, not side-wards reaching, the hand movement is what shifts the thumb into place, not the thumb itself.  Note that this hand movement, carrying over of the hand, initiates somewhere in-between playing the second and third note in the example of B-major with the RH.
   Another point to mention is that entire group should be encompassed at all times. Again looking at B major for example, in the first 3 notes B, Db, Eb, the B and Eb should have RH 1 and 3 covering them respectively. This is done before you even start to play the scale. Then when we reach for the 4th note, the first positional shift with the thumb, we should ensure (once carrying over the thumb as explained before) that our 5th finger waits above the 8th note B. We cover a 1-2-3-4-5 finger group in one go as the second and last group of B major scale, i.e: E,Gb,Ab,Bb,B.

[HarleyMan]

One solution to your problem with the black keys:

How are you playing them?  Are your fingers curved when you play the black keys, or are they more open?

Yes.  I was keeping my fingers curved.  In fact, I was trying to keep them curved.
40+ years ago I recall my piano instructor telling me to always keep my fingers curved.  Of course he may have said, "Keep your fingers curved when playing the white keys."  My memory of over 40 years ago is 'faulty' at best... 

When playing black keys, it's a good idea to open the finger to extend to the key rather than move the whole arm.  It's a quicker, smaller, and more precise movement.  Plus, there's the advantage of getting a better grip on the key.

Thanks Chopinguy!! This helped a LOT!  And not just in the B Major scale.  When flatter the fingers feel more 'secure' and don't slip off the side as often.  More of the finger pad contacts the key.

About that B major scale, try doing a wrist swivel.  See if you can keep the elbow quiet, but swivel your wrist so that your 4th finger gets a good chance at that F#. 

My elbow is a little quieter now, after two days of practice.  More wrist swivel than elbow movement as you indicated above.  At present I'm practicing C and B Major scales for about 5 minutes (alternating hands when one feels tensed).  I stop what I am doing at home and go do these scales about every hour or two during the day.  The improvement is noticable already.  

I'll add Db Major tomorrow.

Chopin guy has given you good advice for the B major scale. As for Greensleves, by all means ask for assistance with the fingering.

Thanks Richard.  I'll post the fingering question in another thread.

For scales, or any such passage, the movements are dictated by the music while still observing human anatomy. That is, when the passage is fast, movements will be small, whereas when the passage is slow, movements can be a bit larger. For a RH descending scale (or LH ascending scale), when going from finger 1 to 3 (or 4), I play the thumb by rotating the hand so that the thumb hits the key while it is itself held fairly rigid. I rarely move the thumb from its joint, which is a very inefficient and unnatural movement. Then, when going on to finger 3 (or 4), I keep rotating the hand around the thumb (still on the key) while moving the elbow outwards. This places fingers 3 or 4 directly above the appropriate key. All I have to do is drop the hand and go on with my scale. Of course, the wrist is constantly moving up and down a bit (Czerny would kick me out).

Try it.

I think that what was happening for me is that I was holding my wrist too rigid or tense and the elbow was flying outward 6 or 7 inches.  Once I began to turn my hand at the wrist a little the elbow doesn't move as much, only an inch or two now and the wrist feels much more relaxed. 

I am trying this.
Thanks for your help!

Finally, no question is too simple. In fact, the seemingly simple questions are often the most important ones. Your question has far-reaching implications and as such is in fact not a simple question at all. It is actually a very complicated question.

I hoped that was the way the folks on this board felt, but one never knows without asking.  I wish I had time to read through every single one of the posts here.  But then I would never get to practice scales or actually play anything.
This board is a wealth of very valuable information.  I really wish someone would compile all this into a textbook.  I personally would buy 3 copies.

When I practise scales, etc. I always practise my left hand a lot more than my right hand.  Since you are right handed it is a lot easier to play with your right hand, the left hand tends to get neglected.  when your left hand is as confident as your right hand, playing hands together is much easier.

I currently do about 3 to 1 (LH to RH). 
15 reps of LH B Major (accending & decending) followed by about 5 reps of RH B Major.  RH is much easier.  Then I switch to C Major and do the same.   I already know this scale but the left hand is much weaker than the right (I do not play the note with the same clarity on the left hand as I can on the right hand).  Then back to B Major again and continue switching back and forth like this for about 5 minutes or until my hands or forearms begin to feel a bit 'exercised'.  If I feel a cramp in the forearms, hands or fingers, I stop, do something else for awhile (listen to CDs and read PianoForum posts) then come back and start again in an hour or two.  My left forearm seems to feel 'exercised' before either the hands or fingers do.  Those muscles have not been used much in the past I would guess.

Also, when I practise scales, etc. I practise loudly and slowly.

So do I!  I hope my neighbors have earplugs.


Thanks again for all your help and responses.
Harley

[HarleyMan]

........group of B major scale, i.e: E,Gb,Ab,Bb,B.

Thanks lostinidlewonder.  I understand what you are getting at but I am a bit confused by the notation.   In B Major should this be E, F#, G#, A#, B?  If not, I am lost on notation and I 'memorized' the wrong key names.....or, is this notation acceptable because B Major is one of those enharmonic scales with Cb Major?   


Harley

[chopinguy]

Yes.  I was keeping my fingers curved.  In fact, I was trying to keep them curved.
40+ years ago I recall my piano instructor telling me to always keep my fingers curved.  Of course he may have said, "Keep your fingers curved when playing the white keys."  My memory of over 40 years ago is 'faulty' at best... 

Actually, this was a technique that I learned very recently (last year).  I also remember my first two teachers always telling me "Curve your fingers, as if you were holding a ball."  Only my current teacher has "re-taught" me the fundamental technique for piano playing, and I do think it has helped a lot. 

[will]

Thanks lostinidlewonder.  I understand what you are getting at but I am a bit confused by the notation.   In B Major should this be E, F#, G#, A#, B?  If not, I am lost on notation and I 'memorized' the wrong key names.....or, is this notation acceptable because B Major is one of those enharmonic scales with Cb Major?   

Yes it should be B C# D# E F# G# A# B.

In scales each letter of the musical alphabet should be used just once. Accidentals are then added accordingly.

So the Cb major scale would be Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

[tocca]

Read further to discover what Josef Hofmann, one of the finest virtuosos of the 20th century had to say about scales.

That was interesting, all of it is sort of common knowledge but it was very well put. It strengthens my view of how little is to be gained by doing mindless exercises.

[RappinPhil]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. It came from a very wonderful book which interviewed dozens of the great pianists. Very interesting.

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486408450/qid=1106086726/sr=8-11/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/002-4819031-4373669?v=glance&s=books&n=507846