Why should you learn scales and arpeggios?

[20yearbreak]

I'm always an ask "why" type of person.  What are the real reasons for learning scales and arpeggios?  Everyone says just do it.  But I ask why.

-Develop proper fingering for pieces?

-Develop your ear so if you hear something...  you can go oh that's D major.  I could just start adding stuff in there?

-Burn in a key at a sub-conscious level so if you're playing in D major your hands just know what sounds good?

[xdjuicebox]

1. They're used a lot in classical music
2. They contain a lot of the basic motions you need to know
3. You learn to "see shapes" on the piano - which allows you to approach the piano in a theoretical manner, as opposed to just a mechanical one. You can begin to learn music using theoretical constructs instead of just notes

There's a lot more that others can list for me, but those are the big ones for me

[klavieronin]

1. They are the building blocks of music, so if you want to understand music properly you ought to know your scales and chords,
2. They can teach you a lot about fingering,
3. A good scale or arpeggio is one of the most difficult things to play on the piano so they can help you develope the fine motor control you need for performing repertoire well. (This is assuming of course that you are playing your scale and arpeggios properly.)

Just a few personal opinions.

[Bob]

Why shouldn't you?  Time I guess.  You could play actual pieces instead.  But....  It's like not knowing the alphabet.  Or not being able to speak.

[iansinclair]

Good question, and one for which I've never seen a really good answer.  For myself, I much prefer to find pieces which challenge me and, if they happen to have scales or arpeggios, so much the better.

[brogers70]

In addition to the good reasons others have mentioned, scales and arpeggios are great because they allow you to focus on very narrow, specific aspects of your technique, playing with arm weight, playing without arm weight, precision of key release, wrist relaxation, posture, movement of the elbows, dynamic control, playing different articulations in different hands, polyrhythms, etc. Of course you can work on all those things in a piece of repertoire, but I find it very helpful that once you have all the scales down cold, you can focus on only a single narrow technical point while you do them.

[louispodesta]

I'm always an ask "why" type of person.  What are the real reasons for learning scales and arpeggios?  Everyone says just do it.  But I ask why.

-Develop proper fingering for pieces?

-Develop your ear so if you hear something...  you can go oh that's D major.  I could just start adding stuff in there?

-Burn in a key at a sub-conscious level so if you're playing in D major your hands just know what sounds good?

Okay, speaking "truthfully, (from decades and tens of thousand's of hours of experience), the daily practicing of scales/arpeggios (including simple and seventh chords) is, in terms of developing ones technique, a "propagandized joke!"

So, in that I am a Musician/Philosopher (once upon a time), I was a Cartesian Rationalist.  There is no shame in your being such at this particular stage, per this discourse.  It is perfectly normal, in my opinion, for you to broach the question, as to why!

Hey, every piano teacher in the world has a technique dictum:  with which any piano teacher can supposedly back up.

Conversely, the late Earl Wild in is Memoir completely took question with this traditional scales/arpeggios logic.  He stated that when it comes down to a particular piece, there is always something different which makes these daily exercises useless.

That means, that:  yes, you can waste the rest of your life practicing these scales, arpeggios, exercises, (which in the long run will do you no good) or you can take a more specific proactive approach to piano technique.

[20yearbreak]

Okay, speaking "truthfully, (from decades and tens of thousand's of hours of experience), the daily practicing of scales/arpeggios (including simple and seventh chords) is, in terms of developing ones technique, a "propagandized joke!"

So, in that I am a Musician/Philosopher (once upon a time), I was a Cartesian Rationalist.  There is no shame in your being such at this particular stage, per this discourse.  It is perfectly normal, in my opinion, for you to broach the question, as to why!

Hey, every piano teacher in the world has a technique dictum:  with which any piano teacher can supposedly back up.

Conversely, the late Earl Wild in is Memoir completely took question with this traditional scales/arpeggios logic.  He stated that when it comes down to a particular piece, there is always something different which makes these daily exercises useless.

That means, that:  yes, you can waste the rest of your life practicing these scales, arpeggios, exercises, (which in the long run will do you no good) or you can take a more specific proactive approach to piano technique.

What would be a more specific proactive approach to piano technique? 

I wanted to say I appreciate everyone else's replies also.  I am in the process of memorizing all the scales / arpeggios currently.  I've memorized all the major scales and arpeggios and I'm working on the minor scales now.  In a way this is my experiment to see what happens...  I've been playing again almost 4 years now and decided to see what happens to my ability if I methodically learn scales/arpeggios.

Right now, it's too early to tell.  At a minimum, I figure I'll be more well rounded and it will improve my ear.

[louispodesta]

"I am in the process of memorizing all the scales / arpeggios currently.  I've memorized all the major scales and arpeggios and I'm working on the minor scales now.  In a way this is my experiment to see what happens...  I've been playing again almost 4 years now and decided to see what happens to my ability if I methodically learn scales/arpeggios."

Thank you for the accompanying insightful honesty, and it is a very big deal, in terms of piano technique development.  However, in that certain "Trolls" have sullied genuine argument in the past (on whatever subject associated with my name), I would prefer to communicate with you by PM, if you desire further information on this subject.

[mishamalchik]

So I'm a non-traditional student as well, I started playing at 19 around 9-10 months ago and ran with it. I did exactly what my teacher asked, and played scales, arpeggios, and Hanon/Czerny religiously, especially early on. This is a recording at 6 months. Not perfect, but I do credit a lot of the speed I had in developing flexibility strength and skill to practicing my scales and arpeggios. I never even got them above 100 bpm, just a lot of repetition to get comfortable moving around the keyboard. I know it's kind of controversial but I found it super helpful for me, and I think that's key. Depending on what your goals are it may be much more helpful and if you have the patience to suffer through it, I do think you come out in a better position to play classical music in particular!

[klavieronin]

This is a recording at 6 months.

That's pretty damn impressive for someone who has only been learning for 6 months!

[timothy42b]

Abby Whiteside says scales are important but are not for the beginner. 

[louispodesta]

That's pretty damn impressive for someone who has only been learning for 6 months!

With all due respect (meant genuinely), the level of truthfulness on this website is, let us just say, less than 100%.

Accordingly, this is not some self-taught student.  Further, he is jabbing at his chords in the left hand, which if he keeps it up, will ruin hands.

I, on the other hand, have challenged the Conservatory Methodology of the traditional so-called mastery of scales, and arpeggios.  And, I have the late Earl Wild to back me up.

The point is:  that given the time, anyone could come up with at least a hundred "new pianists" who could rip some famous piece to show their great talent.

1)  That is not the purpose, in my opinion, of the OP, and 2) that this particular post has nothing to do with anything (assuming that it is genuine, as described).

[mishamalchik]

With all due respect (meant genuinely), the level of truthfulness on this website is, let us just say, less than 100%.

Accordingly, this is not some self-taught student.  Further, he is jabbing at his chords in the left hand, which if he keeps it up, will ruin hands.

I, on the other hand, have challenged the Conservatory Methodology of the traditional so-called mastery of scales, and arpeggios.  And, I have the late Earl Wild to back me up.

The point is:  that given the time, anyone could come up with at least a hundred "new pianists" who could rip some famous piece to show their great talent.

1)  That is not the purpose, in my opinion, of the OP, and 2) that this particular post has nothing to do with anything (assuming that it is genuine, as described).

Well, I've been on this website for awhile now, and my journey has been sort of documented around this, from my earliest post of being terrified that my teacher would drop me because I wasn't performing well in lessons, to my behemoth of a post talking about opus 10 no 1 and how I approached it. The point in my posting that was to show that, at least for me, there was immense value in learning scales and arpeggios because I could focus very early on developing movement around the keyboard without having to think about the individual notes. This gave me the skills to play more advanced pieces with less lengthy training. Scales and arpeggios are not the end all be all of piano training but I think for certain students and certain goals they can be enormously helpful, and a good teacher will prescribe them as necesary.

While I am a non-traditional student (I started at 19, have been playing for about 9 or 10 months nown and almost never use sheet music), I make no claims of being self taught. While I don't think it's the end all be all of musical development, I also have synesthesia and perfect pitch, so music has always been unusually interesting to me and that may have something to do with why I can play the same scale for two hours and still find it fascinating. However, the greatest tool in my development has been having access to a very patient and very accomplished teacher who has supported my growth incredibly well. He took a bit of a gamble taking me on as a student, and I took it upon myself to follow his instruction as best I could and while I know I'm not the greatest player that's ever been, I am very confident in saying that my attention to his instruction has paid off.

I think the state of my hands is an issue best addressed by my teacher, however perhaps you could upload your own recording so that I may see how the left hand ought to be played? The recording is far from perfect but it is a very difficult piece and I encourage all critics to lead by example

[pianoplunker]

I'm always an ask "why" type of person.  What are the real reasons for learning scales and arpeggios?  Everyone says just do it.  But I ask why.

-Develop proper fingering for pieces?

-Develop your ear so if you hear something...  you can go oh that's D major.  I could just start adding stuff in there?

-Burn in a key at a sub-conscious level so if you're playing in D major your hands just know what sounds good?

You mentioned three things that have nothing to do with knowing scales and arpeggios. Scales and arpeggios help understand the mapping of the keyboard. They help as a platform to try different techniques , and can make a great warm-up. If you want to memorize pieces better,try memorizing the music by numbers instead of  actual notes and chords.  II V I  is much easier if you know the chords and scales.  Of course you can continue to refer to d G C instead of II V I but if you dont know scales, you will always have to play note by note rather than passage by passage or verse by verse - whatever kind of music. Unless you have an amazing ear to just play and not worry about it.


 

[louispodesta]

Very true, and very well said.  We have all been down that road.

However, this is the 21st Century, and no one, (absolutely no one), is going to convince me or any other modern technician (Taubman, Golandsky, Mark, et al) that the daily practice of said is an essential part of piano technique.

The antediluvian method of the daily playing of scales, broken chords, and arpeggios (in whatever fashion) is a complete waste of very valuable practice time.  Nevertheless, (as very accurately alluded to by the prior post), one should also theoretically break down any section of any piece, and then apply the specific scale, seventh chord, or arpeggio.

After flying half way across the U.S. for a five hour lesson with Thomas Mark, that is the first thing I finally realized.  That is:  I no longer had to "warm up" or improve my technique by the daily playing of this junk!

So, learn your "All" of your scales and arpeggios (including alternative fingerings, i.e. Chopin), and then take that knowledge and move on to the concept of musicality.

Does anyone really think that anyone is ever going to ask you to play, in terms of an audition, any of this stuff?  The answer, unfortunately, is that everyone one of the 644 Accredited NASM Music Schools in the U.S. is going to ask you to do just that.

Is it your goal to become a real musician, or is it to pass some test?  Enough said!

[klavieronin]

So, learn your "All" of your scales and arpeggios (including alternative fingerings, i.e. Chopin), and then take that knowledge and move on to the concept of musicality.

Exactly! Once you have learned the alphabet or understood the multiplication table there is no need to continually recite it on a daily basis.

[mishamalchik]

musicality.

Does anyone really think that anyone is ever going to ask you to play, in terms of an audition, any of this stuff?  The answer, unfortunately, is that everyone one of the 644 Accredited NASM Music Schools in the U.S. is going to ask you to do just that.

Is it your goal to become a real musician, or is it to pass some test?  Enough said!

The thing is, if your goal is to become a professional performing musician it's gonna be almost a necessity to gain admission to and do well at one of those schools. Even you admit that they must be learned, and learning them requires daily practice for at least a limited time.

Furthermore, if you have a good teacher and they ask you to practice scales you should probably do that. Teachers are certainly not deities, but why employ them if you don't trust them enough to take their advice? A qualified teacher that you see in person is going to give you much more accurate guidance and advice than anyone on this forum can...

My teacher asked me to practice scales and it was of great benefit to me, I know for a fact he didn't ask his other more advanced students to do that. He doesn't even ask me to play them in lessons anymore. Scales and arppegios are a warm up for me now, and I can't speak for anyone else, but before jumping into something like the Liszt or Chopin etudes, I definitely need to get the blood flowing!

[louispodesta]

1)  "Does anyone really think that anyone is ever going to ask you to play, in terms of an audition, any of this stuff?  The answer, unfortunately, is that everyone one of the 644 Accredited NASM Music Schools in the U.S. is going to ask you to do just that.  Is it your goal to become a real musician, or is it to pass some test?  Enough said!"

2)  "The thing is, if your goal is to become a professional performing musician it's gonna be almost a necessity to gain admission to and do well at one of those schools. Even you admit that they must be learned, and learning them requires daily practice for at least a limited time.

Furthermore, if you have a good teacher and they ask you to practice scales you should probably do that. Teachers are certainly not deities, but why employ them if you don't trust them enough to take their advice? A qualified teacher that you see in person is going to give you much more accurate guidance and advice than anyone on this forum can..."

True statements, these are (Star Wars vernacular).

However, "mishamalchik " does very accurately drive home the point of the "Conservatory Method" of daily scales, broken chords and arpeggios practice at the piano.

Just today, I once again read through the entirety of the Chopin Waltz Op. 64. No.2.  And, as referenced before, I would never think about any "mechanical" warm-up exercise in relation to this piece.

However, having "learned" (the accompanying harmony), it does make a difference.  That means one writes out the harmony (above the line), and then one ties it all together through it respective parts.  That means: a specific scale, a specific chord (left hand) or broken chord (right hand) and so forth.

Accordingly, this robotic notion of warming up with scales, broken chords, and arpeggios is not (in my opinion) even remotely in the same world as the comprehensive method of learning a piece of music.

[keypeg]

Louis, off-topic, in a hope to help you achieve better clarity.  I initially had trouble reading your last post because I thought that at the start you were quoting a member, and I went through the whole thread trying to see which member you were quoting, to get context.  Then I discovered that you were quoting your own message, followed by a response to that message.

Something that might help is to put quotes in the quote box

the one that makes things look like this

I find the easiest way to do this for myself is typing in the symbols manually.  You write the word [ quote ] - but without a space between "[" or "]" and the word "quote" - I've added that space because if I don't, it will actually function as a quote and you won't see that word anymore once I post it. Then after the [ quote ] you put in the text you want to quote, followed by [ /quote ], again without the spaces.  That creates a computer code which tells the system to put those words into quote format.

This site has the unfortunate feature that when you quote a response to a post, it makes the original words that are the object of the response, disappear.  No other site does that.  I will copy and paste that part and put it in italics - the code for italics is [ i ] and [ /i ] .  I'll write who is quoted, so the final outcome looks like this:

(me) We're having a very wet spring this year.
(other person) What do you mean by "wet spring"?

and then my response to what I mean by "wet spring" under that.

This makes it easier to follow posts that are responses of this kind.

[louispodesta]

"Keypeg":

Muchisimas gracias!  I too, have never been able to figure out the mechanizations of the reply sectors of this website.

As a suggestion, Oh gosh, would the concert pianist founder/mentor of this website ever consider bringing an American/USA software engineer to improve (maybe drastically, for the better) the "push and pull" of this website.

In summary, on the other side of the Pond you have an idiot named Frank Baxter, with his website whose goal is to kiss Ass and sell product.  And, then in Europe, with have this.

Surely, there is a better way.