Acquiring fundamentals of technique after 20 years or so >.>

[nw746]

Just for background, I'm 25, my training is primarily in composition. I've had probably two or three years of piano lessons altogether but have always been able to play the piano (not very well) and most of my lessons focused on repertoire. Presumably I could fake or sight-read well enough to convince a series of teachers that I knew the basics. I did not.

I know that at 25 with a Grade 5 level of musical talent I'll never be a concert pianist, but I would like to get my skills up to professional standards in order to e.g. play my own compositions, play those of friends/colleagues in concerts or recordings, etc... and also to get a feeling of satisfaction rather than frustration from reading through pieces at the piano.

On the advice of my former piano teacher #3 I've turned to the Chopin Etudes in order to study the technical issues they present, so I've been practicing some of them, very slowly. (Also Dohnányi's A legfontosabb ujjgyakorlatok a biztos zongoratechnika elsajátítására, a title which I loved trying to pronounce as a 12 year old student, but my teacher also proposed Chopin because she thought the Dohnányi does not have enough musical interest to retain my attention for more than five minutes or so. Which is true, but I still practice it for those 4th finger exercises and parallel thirds, five minutes at a time. Lmao)

Some of the things these are helping me pick up: arpeggios, scales, evenness, limited finger independence (total finger independence is probably not possible for me—3rd and 4th fingers are too closely linked), passing thumb/fingers over/under the hand, even shifts in wrist position, a good sense of where things are on the piano, stretchiness, significant amounts of frustration

Some of the issues I've come across, that they aren't helping me solve, include:

Op. 10/1 - wrist/forearm always ends up sore due I guess to arm or shoulder tension; have a hard time hitting the right notes with the vertical "wave" hand motions required for e.g. A major arpeggios in bars 35-36; some fingerings are physically painful e.g. the notorious bar 31 (4th finger gets crushed against the neighbouring black key—I am substituting 3 at the moment)

Op. 10/2 (and the Godowsky left hand version) - difficulty of maintaining a relaxed wrist; feel like I'm working the wrist instead of fingers 3-4 because they are not powerful enough

Op. 10/7 - I simply can't see a way this can be done at the moment. It seems physically impossible (at least at dotted crotchet = 84). But obviously it's not, since people play it all the time.

Op. 10/9 - see comments on bar 31 of Op. 10/1. Left hand fingers get squushed.

Op. 10/11 - I'm not quite flexible enough I don't think. Usually get sore from this one. (I am playing it at tempo though.)

Op. 25/1 - The biggest challenge here is simply playing quietly enough, but not so quietly that notes drop out. That might require a piano with good action, which I don't have, but it's probably still practiceable somehow?

Op. 25/4 - I'm not good at leaps. Also not great at playing staccato; in particular it's hard for me to control dynamics and I'll hit certain notes much too quietly or too loudly by mistake.

Op. 25/6 - I guess thirds will someday become easier if I practice Dohnányi exercises 26-29 regularly? They are possibly the most embarrassing gap in my technical ability, I struggle with even short passages in thirds

Op. 25/8 - see 25/6 times two

Op. 25/9 - see Op. 25/4. Leaps here are more difficult, though obviously not as difficult as Beethoven Op. 106 or Schumann Op. 6 or 17

Op. 25/10 - Again, I don't see how this one is possible, even though people play it all the time. Also makes me realise how many octave passages I've faked when reading through repertoire <.<

The others I either haven't yet looked at (10/3, 10/4, 10/12, 25/5, 25/7, 25/12), or don't think there are any problems they raise that I couldn't resolve by practicing enough. (And 25/11 has so far been too intimidating for me to sight-read although people say it goes much better than it looks... but also all the people I know who play piano are conservatoire trained students or professionals my age or older which means they have 15-20 years of lessons and experience already...)

I now live nine thousand miles away from my former piano teacher and can't ask her directly so I'm asking you: what are some other, ideally easier but still challenging, technical studies/aids that I could use to try to solve these problems? Or pieces I can use as technical studies/aids? Musical interest is obviously a bonus but I'm willing to try Hanon or whatever, it won't kill me.

[visitor]

I disagree on tue Chopin etudes, they are better suited for fine tuning ie refinement of already worked out solid technique, application in musical context and exploitation of variants. Not so well suited to learn the technique...i digress.

Probably the finest course/compendium on development ever done....is the 7 book , yes 7  full books, set, by Alfredo Jonas, one of the finest forgotten virtuosos a instructors there was. Dusty old treasure has a way of hiding in plain sight sometimes.

I would do the entire set

https://imslp.org/wiki/Master_School_of_Piano_Playing_and_Virtuosity_(Jonás,_Alberto)

[visitor]

Bio excerpt wiko
Alberto Jonás (June 8, 1868, Madrid – November 10, 1943, Philadelphia) was a Spanish pianist, composer, and piano pedagogue. Although not much is known about his life, as a pianist he was regarded as a virtuoso on the level of Ignacy Jan Paderewski, Moriz Rosenthal, Leopold Godowsky, Józef Hofmann, and Josef Lhévinne. He also ranked, during the 1920s and 30s, among the greatest and most sought-after keyboard pedagogues of the time.......
......
Upon graduating from Brussels in 1890, he entered the first international Anton Rubinstein Competition, which was being held at the St. Petersburg Conservatory. Even though he did not win the coveted First Prize in piano (it went to Nikolay Dubasov), he nevertheless made an extraordinary impression on Anton Rubinstein, who immediately invited him to be one the handful of pianists who had the privilege of being his students. He then worked with Rubinstein in St. Petersburg for the next three years. During his sojourn there, he became a recognized pianist and teacher, and soon befriended fellow Rubinstein students, Józef Hofmann, Felix Blumenfeld, and Teresa Carreńo, who all held his playing in high esteem. During this period he also met Ignacy Jan Paderewski, who acted as a mentor and gave him some lessons (in particular on his own Piano Concerto in A minor, Op. 17, which Jonás would later often perform) and encouraged him to continue his studies in music. In 1891 he made his debut in Berlin as a soloist with the Berlin Philharmonic under Hans von Bülow, receiving rave reviews.......

[nw746]

Noted, thanks. This looks really useful, especially the prescriptions for a practice routine, which I will be completely unable to follow for more than three days at a time but it's good to have a detailed plan in writing so that I feel guilty for not following it.  :p I will try to find this at the music library, or failing that, some spiral binding.

[visitor]

Noted, thanks. This looks really useful, especially the prescriptions for a practice routine, which I will be completely unable to follow for more than three days at a time but it's good to have a detailed plan in writing so that I feel guilty for not following it.  :p I will try to find this at the music library, or failing that, some spiral binding.

Totally worth your while ie see how the giants of the old er regarded it, and yes prnting and binding would be worth it
...
In the early 1920s he started putting together all the material he had amassed from the correspondence and began writing what he would later title Master School of Modern Piano Playing and Virtuosity, in seven volumes. It took him seven years to complete the vast undertaking (1922–1929), which in its final formed featured the unique distinction of having the collaboration of practically all the greatest living piano virtuosi. The final contributors were Arthur Friedheim, Ignaz Friedman, Vasily Safonov, Ferruccio Busoni, Katharine Goodson, Leopold Godowsky, Alfred Cortot, Rudolph Ganz, Wilhelm Backhaus, Fannie Bloomfield Zeisler, Ernő Dohnányi, Ossip Gabrilowitsch, Josef Lhévinne, Isidor Philipp, Moriz Rosenthal, Emil von Sauer, Leopold Schmidt, and Zygmunt Stojowski, and included excerpts from more than one thousand examples drawn from the entire piano literature in order to illustrate specific points.

In breadth of scope, originality, and clearness of execution, the book is unprecedented. It was finally published in 1929 by Carl Fischer Music in New York. Busoni considered it "the most monumental work ever written on piano playing" in seven volumes:

Book I: Finger Exercises Book II: Scales Book III: Arpeggios Book IV: Complete School of Double Notes Book V: Octaves, Staccato, and Chords Book VI: The Artistic Employment of the Piano Pedals Book VII: Exercises for Fingers, Wrists, and Arms Away From the Piano, Phrasing, Embellishments in Music

Lhévinne called it "the greatest and most valuable work on the subject", and Rosenthal called it a "Master-Work" (meisterarbeit). It was also admired by Sergei Rachmaninoff, who mentioned it in some of his letters.

[adodd81802]

Good response. As mentioned the Etudes are designed to refine well worked techniques. When professionals are telling you that Etude Op 10/2 is one of the hardest things THEY'VE ever played, you know it's not for the faint hearted.

If I recall correctly Horowitz didn't even bother with 10/1?

[chopinlover01]

Drop the Chopin. I hate to say it, since you sound like you know what you're doing, more or less, but any soreness is an immediate blood-red flag. You shouldn't experience any fatigue when you're playing; this is a sign that you're doing something wrong. Stop and fix any and all pain before you go on; the small muscle aches that you ignore are what injure you (not one bad practice night, although that can happen).

[nw746]

@adodd yes I think it was Horowitz... obviously playing the etude in concert is very different from reading through it (or parts of it) to acquire the technical skills that it's teaching. So for Op. 10/1 for instance that would be maintaining a flexible wrist and forearm and rapid, even shifts in wrist position. (Unless it's actually supposed to be an exercise in extension and stretching and we are supposed to play each 4-note pattern with the hand in a fixed position, but that seems unnecessarily cruel, even for Chopin. >.>)

I think part of my problem is unrealistic ambitions—the Chopin Etudes are hard enough to give pause to professional pianists, but my goals are to play contemporary music in relatively experimental or avant-garde styles, which most professional pianists don't even touch, and things like Beethoven Op. 106 which some professional pianists have argued is straight up impossible. The other problem is all the other 20-25 year olds I know who play piano being, well, actual piano students with 10-20 years of lessons and experience, who obviously can play Chopin Etudes if they choose to put in the effort. So I end up asking friends of mine "hey I'm trying to learn Chopin Op. 10/1 any suggestions" and getting responses like "oh yeah that's pretty hard, it took me five weeks to learn, just practice with a loose wrist and no forearm tension everyday and eventually you'll get the hang of it".

@chopinlover: That's what I was afraid of. I guess there isn't really a way of finding out what I'm doing wrong that is causing the soreness or pain unless I can somehow find the $$$ to shell out for a teacher? (or hope a friend is around and can take a look?) I did check out the Jonas books from the library (only two volumes) which have some good exercises for extension, finger independence and accuracy, which I would definitely need for the repertoire I'm practicing at the moment (Mozart K576 etc... I'm not trying to start right off with Chopin etudes don't worry :p )

[visitor]

A other gem , forgotten , begins at most badic beginner and builds from there, sets good foundation for baroque through early romantic
https://imslp.org/wiki/Ausführliche_theoretisch-practische_Anweisung_zum_Piano-Forte-Spiel_(Hummel,_Johann_Nepomuk)
HUMMEL
A complete theoretical and practical course of instructions, on the art of playing the piano forte commencing with the simplest elementary principles, and including every information requisite to the most finished style of performance
In English
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=28625

[anamnesis]

Etudes like Op 10 no 7 essentially reveal if your basic underlying technique (or rather your conceptual model of how to play, your overall coordination, and your relationship with the instrument) is appropriate.

As one pedagogue notes:

"When one can play Op. 10, No. 7 at top speed without a cramp in the forearm the coordination has to be right; the bulk of the work has to be done with the upper arm and forearm, and this same coordination functions in every one of the Etudes.

...

Two operations are always taking place: the finding of the key, and the delivery of power for tone. There is bound to be consistent difficulty with the Etudes unless the pianist differentiates between the two operations."

There's a very distinct timing and interaction with the instrument that allows one to fluidly work between both operations or dimensions (the horizontal dimension of finding the key and the vertical dimension of articulation). The correct technical approach allows you to understand and feel the difference between the two, rather than glossing over it. The action of the piano is essentially a see-saw canon and working with allows the "finding of key" to be more of a ballistic response of the free arm, which implies why timing and positioning are important. (Making practicing similar to playing pinball or rather billiards.)

[mjames]

Using etudes without a teacher to acquire technique is a waste of time really. You can acquire technique by regularly playing music.

[nw746]

Etudes like Op 10 no 7 essentially reveal if your basic underlying technique (or rather your conceptual model of how to play, your overall coordination, and your relationship with the instrument) is appropriate.

It... evidently is not.... lol. does this pedagogue offer any pointers on how to figure out what's wrong with one's basic underlying technique and how to fix it? :p

Using etudes without a teacher to acquire technique is a waste of time really. You can acquire technique by regularly playing music.

Well, I've been doing that for my entire life pretty much, and have acquired more or less zero technique...? Which I guess means I'm playing wrong, thus the reason for etudes (or, I guess, Jonas or Dohnanyi)

[klavieronin]

I've been doing that for my entire life pretty much, and have acquired more or less zero technique...? Which I guess means I'm playing wrong, thus the reason for etudes (or, I guess, Jonas or Dohnanyi)

Every piece is an étude really. I always seemed to make the most progress when I studied a difficult piece for a long period. Maybe just choose some difficult music that you like and which is just beyond you current ability.

Also, I don't think you really acquire good technique from playing études or exercises. I think it comes from; 1. learning how to listen while you play, 2. learning how to use your fingers, hands, wrists, forearms etc., and 3. lots and lots of careful and attentive practice.

That's not to say that you shouldn't play études or exercises. I just mean that not matter what you play you can learn something from it. (And everything you play you should treat as though it were a piece of music, finger exercises included.)

[bmn3]

Hi.
Somebody have the 7 books??

https://imslp.org/wiki/Master_School_of_Piano_Playing_and_Virtuosity_(Jonás,_Alberto)

In imslp just have 2 books the other "wrong link".
Thanks

[anamnesis]

It... evidently is not.... lol. does this pedagogue offer any pointers on how to figure out what's wrong with one's basic underlying technique and how to fix it? :pWell, I've been doing that for my entire life pretty much, and have acquired more or less zero technique...?

First, understand what we have to do in order to progress technically and what parameters we need to mentally be aware of by looking at by looking at my replies and links (qwfparst) in these threads:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6bzr22/are_trills_effective_finger_exercises/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6d2m1z/a_great_practicing_technique_to_fast_passages/

Here's a post with more resources:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/62bl13/posture_cues_heavy_fingers/

----

Op 10/7 and the other double note etudes such as 25/6, actually involve a very specific orientation of balance and direction that is simpler than single note textures, but initially harder to figure out; however they end up being easier to perfect and refine. This is because of the degrees of freedom problem in motor coordination:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_freedom_problem

There are basically "fewer right" possible answers to the body in more restricted textures, which is why the pedagogue, Abby Whiteside argues:

"There is value in using a difficult pattern early, but only the kind of pattern which balks until a right balance in activity is established. Octaves and double thirds are examples of this kind of useful difficulty. They remain difficult and practically unplayable playable until they are produced in the easiest possible manner. Thus they are extremely valuable in establishing a technique. But a good finger scale is of no assistance, or practically none, in playing arpeggios and double notes-so the time spent on scales is not used to the best advantage. They should not be used, as they still are in most conservatories, as a criterion of progress in accomplishment. Educators in other fields have learned to start with the large movements first in establishing a desirable coordination."

(Note here that technique here is in terms of an overall coordination. Don't conflate it with technique in terms of familiarity with the keyboard contour and tonal patterns. )

See these threads for the technique dealing with intervals and chords:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/5ztk8j/how_do_you_play_repeated_chords_as_rapidly_as/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6hpqc7/taubman_technique_rapid_double_3rds/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6bkgc4/czerny_fingering_in_bach_vs_what_my_teacher/

[huaidongxi]

the seven volume Jonas work is also accessible from the online archive of the Univ. of Massachusetts.  their library copy used as the source was donated to them by Alma Maria Schindler Mahler (Gropius) Werfel.

[klavieronin]

Another book worth looking into is "Tone, Touch and Technique for the Advanced Pianist" by Max Cooke. Book includes etudes, exercises, repertoire, and explanations on how to use the wrists, forearms etc. It takes a very holistic approach.

[nw746]

First, understand what we have to do in order to progress technically and what parameters we need to mentally be aware of by looking at by looking at my replies and links (qwfparst) in these threads:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6bzr22/are_trills_effective_finger_exercises/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6d2m1z/a_great_practicing_technique_to_fast_passages/

Here's a post with more resources:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/62bl13/posture_cues_heavy_fingers/

----

Op 10/7 and the other double note etudes such as 25/6, actually involve a very specific orientation of balance and direction that is simpler than single note textures, but initially harder to figure out; however they end up being easier to perfect and refine. This is because of the degrees of freedom problem in motor coordination:
[...]
(Note here that technique here is in terms of an overall coordination. Don't conflate it with technique in terms of familiarity with the keyboard contour and tonal patterns. )

See these threads for the technique dealing with intervals and chords:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/5ztk8j/how_do_you_play_repeated_chords_as_rapidly_as/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6hpqc7/taubman_technique_rapid_double_3rds/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6bkgc4/czerny_fingering_in_bach_vs_what_my_teacher/

Noted, thanks. I spent far too long earlier today trying to apply these lessons to the bar of Kreisleriana that I have found most difficult:



The notes are not the difficulty (well, the 5 4 3 first three notes are usually pretty hard for me to play evenly if I haven't practiced) so much as getting the accent on the top Eb, as the motion of my left hand was making that the weakest note in the phrase and therefore it required a lot of strain to accent it. When I recalled what you wrote about separating vertical and horizontal aspects of playing I realised that I wasn't making use of verticality at all or doing anything to shape the gesture of crescendo and accent, and I was trying to perform the accent with my finger alone without supporting it with the rest of the arm, so of course it was tense.

I think this way of practicing could be seen as just rethinking problems? For instance instead of "my wrist is always tense when I play this passage, how do I relax my wrist for it" I could be like "my wrist is always tense when I play this passage, what am I doing with the rest of my body that causes that tension" or something. Or "I need to do five finger exercises to strengthen my fourth finger so it will be reactive enough to articulate the repeated notes in the Hammerklavier scherzo" vs. "I need to find a way to play the repeated notes in the Hammerklavier scherzo where my fourth finger isn't slow". Etc.

Anyway I'll eventually take another look at 25/6 or at least some double note exercises from Dohnanyi or something, haha

Hi.
Somebody have the 7 books??

https://imslp.org/wiki/Master_School_of_Piano_Playing_and_Virtuosity_(Jonás,_Alberto)

In imslp just have 2 books the other "wrong link".
Thanks

Depends on the copyright law of your country. I can get all 7 because I'm in New Zealand and it's over 50 years since the death of the last author, but if you're in EU where it has to be 70 years after death before something is out of copyright you might not be able to access it.

[adodd81802]

@bnm3

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Jon%C3%A1s%2C+Alberto%2C+1868-1943%22

[visitor]

Imslp was given more as basic partial example,  asic google should also yield that they are in print and easily.available for purchase via amazon , sheet music plus, etc, they are massive volumes, i cannot.imagine trying to manage printing each at 300 or so pgs each from pdf files but if you have an ipad pro or large android tablet then playing from screen may work i suppose
...i need to upgrade to a large tablet myself