Do people actually completely change fields at the top music schools?

[Bob]

I saw the movie Whiplash and it was one of the things I thought that was off.

Say we have a top-of-the-nation music conservatory.  And say we have members in a top ensemble at that music school.  You could think Juilliard or Eastman.

Do people who make it into those places actually stress out or burn out enough, get so traumatized, that they switch to a completely different field, like medicine (or premed)?

That's what happened to one 'lesser' character in the movie.  (Don't worry.  No big spoiler there.  But you won't believe... nevermind.  )  I didn't quite buy it.  If you've worked your whole life, made it into a top music school... You just decide it's too much and switch to a different field?  I don't buy that.  Get burned maybe.  Get scarred.  But leave music?  I could see someone freaking out and ending up taking a semester off.  I can't quite see someone getting miffed and switching fields though.

Thoughts?  Does that actually happen in the real world?  "I went to (Eastman, Julliard, _____) but decided to switch to ____ field even though I spent my life in music working up to that point."

[j_tour]

Yep.  My personal experience, just as an observer of human moves, is that music students basically don't know how to do anything else -- not that they couldn't, but they just don't.  In other fields people burn out all the time and sometimes they can put it together in another field.

Hey, there's always law school.

[dogperson]

I know someone who graduated with a performance degree from one of these two schools,  then became a taxi driver.

[mjames]

Why would you not buy it? It happens all the time. You can spend 8 years working towards a doctorate degree and end up leaving academia for the private industry. Some people spend a lot of time working on something in a field only to realize (far too late)they hate it. Unfortunate but that's reality.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

My old teacher used to be a pro pianist then ended up selling rocks for a living. 

He was like up there in the business he was able to hire and fire people so he wasn't just a scrub.

[mjames]

The reverse also tends to happen a lot. Chausson (French composer) abandoned his career as a practitioner of law to study composition.

[georgey]

Sometimes composers do both.  Charles Ives was the co-owner of one of the largest insurance companies in the USA – Ives and Myrick Insurance Co. of New York City (edit: after having started as an entry level actuarial clerk).  He became a multi-millionaire in the 1930’s 1920's when being a millionaire meant something.  He did get his college degree in music though (Yale University, studying under Horatio Parker).  I don’t think he made any money composing.  In fact, you used to give his publishers money to publish his works.  He would also pay orchestras to play his music just so he could hear what it would sound like.  

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd say it is rare for reasons other than financial. You would give up at a much earlier period of it all rather than once you have established yourself.

[dogperson]

I'd say it is rare for reasons other than financial. You would give up at a much earlier period of it all rather than once you have established yourself.

I have no idea of the rarity of pianists who make the decision to leave music for another profession. But here is the biography of one:  Thomas Yu has a performance doctorate, was performing as a concert pianist, and then obtained a dentistry degree

https://www.thomasyu.ca/page/bio/ .

[lostinidlewonder]

It seems he's described as an amateur pianist (not to degrade his skill just the fact he works as a perodontist). He's doing both by the looks of it not giving up one for the other.

[dogperson]

It seems he's described as an amature pianist (not to degrade his skill just the fact he works as a perodontist). He's doing both by the looks of it not giving up one for the other.

He gave up a professional pianist career to become a Peridondist and now is doing the skilled amateur  circuit.  So he did switch careers, and now is weaving music back in

[lostinidlewonder]

It's not quite leaving it completely is it though? That is what I thought the opening post asked for when Bob wrote:

But leave music?

[Bob]

I watched the Whiplash movie.

Yeah, I was thinking "leaving music completely."  I can't see someone completely dropping it.

Financial as a reason, yes I can see that.  In the Whiplash movie it was a negative experience with the one teacher.

So to reframe it... At top music schools how common is it for students to completely switch careers due to negative experiences with music at that level?  Now I'm thinking it's common.  Plenty of undergrads get to college and discover they suck.  Then they drop.  I remember that.  Although, I'm adding "top" music schools.  Students would have already devoted a lot of effort and "sole" (or soul, also true probably) to music.  They would have already bumped into people and had negative experiences, but they still made it into a top school.  And then they have a bad experience there and quit entirely?

[cuberdrift]

As a young student I have a feeling many Conservatory people become like machines.

[Bob]

I guess I was also thinking of them completely dropping music.  I don't see how someone would put in the effort (and enjoy it at some point, to some level) to make it to a top music school and then completely drop it.

[ondine88]

Naida Cole switched to medicine after putting out some albums

[quantum]

For many people that continue their studies at the graduate level and beyond, there might become a sense of disillusion - that the subject the fell in love with no longer brings the passion it once did.  Academia at the higher ranks can be very draining, not just for music, but any subject.  People can find themselves trudging over work that could take months or years, of which they become wearisome, in order to complete their academic studies. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I’m thinking of pursuing a career in skateboarding.  I don’t think ima quit piano though ima try to do both

Outin will probably be mad

The way music school and the industry is set up *** sucks and the people suck too.  I only have a handful of meaningful relationships with other classical musicians. Idk how it is for other genres outside of classical though

[j_tour]

I only have a handful of meaningful relationships with other classical musicians. Idk how it is for other genres outside of classical though

Well, this isn't an important comment, but in my experience, musicians of many different types, including classical, are not my favorite types of people.

There are exceptions, but it seems more the rule that musicians are edgy, obsessive, paranoid-tending, insecure people prone to passive aggression who have only rudimentary social skills.

But, among the exceptions, they can be exceptionally fun-loving, casual, easy-going, and have interests they're willing to talk about outside of music. 

Not the rule, though, by any means.

[lostinidlewonder]

A person is a person. A job is a job. Generalising what people are like without even understanding them personally leaves you open to incorrect assumptions and poor judgement.

[emill]

hello Bob,

It has been quite a while since I posted here in PS and the thoughts/questions/comments here are similar to what has been bothering me as a parent whose son went to music school in the US and is still there going into his 8th year now (Enzo / Lorenzo - EASTMAN, undergrad, masters and will be 2nd year into his DMA this fall).  He is doggedly determined and despite financial difficulties, he has stayed on course.  To be fair, Eastman has been generous in terms of scholarships for tuition, 2/3 for undergraduate, full for masters, and 3/4 for doctorates + all the assistantships in teaching for him to earn.  We help him with room and board and health insurance which is still some good amount.

to quote QUANTUM :

"For many people that continue their studies at the graduate level and beyond, there might become a sense of disillusion - that the subject they fell in love with no longer brings the passion it once did.  Academia at the higher ranks can be very draining, not just for music, but any subject". 

YES, we can feel his strain and quite worried at his frustration that there are many of other subjects, papers /thesis to hurdle that may not seem related to piano music & skill development like entrepreneurship, languages, humanities etc.... so draining and diminishing to passion ... there was a time he was seriously considering going into an artist diploma program. 

The requirement of producing scholarly papers at the masters and especially at the doctoral level are so demanding & straining and totally dissociated from one's skill/artistry as a pianist.  The frustration and the disillusionment come and goes.  I am just glad that his studio teachers, despite their strict requirements (Profs. Natalya Antonova & Alexander Kobrin) are a joy to him, rather than a task.

Bob -

"At top music schools how common is it for students to completely switch careers due to negative experiences with music at that level?  Now I'm thinking it's common.  Plenty of undergrads get to college and discover they suck.  Then they drop.  I remember that.  Although, I'm adding "top" music schools.  Students would have already devoted a lot of effort and "sole" (or soul, also true probably) to music.  They would have already bumped into people and had negative experiences, but they still made it into a top school.  And then they have a bad experience there and quit entirely?"

Hmnnn  ....   As per Enzo only a few piano students at EASTMAN quit undergrad school and most of those who did were due to financial difficulties like only able to get a small scholarship, rather than having a bad experience or encounter.

For Masters and Doctoral studies ....  some drop out mainly due to being burnout and some again, due to financial difficulties.  There is also the academic difficulty .... papers, papers and more scholarly papers,  so much so that a good number of students stretch their 3-year doctoral up 7 years ....  yes they are allowed up to 7 years to finish.  There is a culminating & dreaded COMPREHENSIVE examination.   

Again & at least at Eastman, Enzo is not aware of anyone quitting due to negative experiences with music at that level?  Yes the Faculty is strict and firm, and the academic demands are exacting, yet the faculty is very nurturing.  All one has to do is ask for their help and they will walk the extra mile to help you with your academic problems and weaknesses.  At the masteral and especially the doctoral levels, the master-apprentice relationship ends ....  they are treated as junior colleagues ...   

At this stage, I feel that Enzo will stick to what he has embarked to do - piano performance and teaching.  It may not be so financially rewarding, but I know his taste and needs are simple ... and who knows he might have luck on his side, financial-wise.  But if things get so bad, God forbid ...

Bob may just be right -
   

Yeah, I was thinking "leaving music completely."  I can't see someone completely dropping it. Financial as a reason, yes I can see that.

 

[Bob]

It's the teaching/pedagogy side where the papers come in, right?  Otherwise I was wondering, why is he writing papers if he's performance?

[emill]

Bob -

It's the teaching/pedagogy side where the papers come in, right?  Otherwise, I was wondering, why is he writing papers if he's performance?

Enzo is enrolled in Eastman's Doctor of Musical Arts program which is mainly into performance and literature.  He has one-hour lessons weekly with his teacher for 6 semesters in preparation for a degree recital or lecture-recital at the end of 3 years.
   
Practically all subjects related to the "literature" side requires a "formal & scholarly" paper and not just any paper.  This is where he finds it really straining and draining and may negatively interfere with the mood/state/psyche of his performance side.  He also has to "teach" having been awarded 2 assistantships for teaching non-piano music majors.  It is really a Full and Demanding schedule for him and there is always the danger of being burned out or disillusionment.