An Underestimated Performance (?)

[ed palamar]

I met Artur for the first time on the street just before he went to play this concert (he was about 70 years my senior) :

The second time was after it in my kitchen asking for a soda, and he said that it wasn't (didn't think it was) successful.

[keypeg]

I don't get it.  That's Artur Rubinstein, and he was anything but underestimated.  A joke?

[ed palamar]

I don't get it.  That's Artur Rubinstein, and he was anything but underestimated.  A joke?

This isn't a joke on my part and he was somberly serious about it.  Because this was/is an experience that occurred within the time frame of a crime committed on October 1, 1955 A.D. through November 8, 2012 A.D. (and continuing), I, for one, can honestly say that I have gone to court about it, though as a victim falsely accused, and I also see Artur as a victim of the same crime because the attempts to not only silence the crime but to use me and others as a scapegoat continue.

That might sound like something far removed from his trip to Russia, but it actually isn't.

The concert, at least to me, is impeccable.

[louispodesta]

Re:  "ed palamar" and his two posts, I proffer the following response:

1)  I did not broach this subject, you did.  So, the truth be known, Artur (Arthur) Rubinstein never had a piano lesson after the age of sixteen.  His studies under Joseph Joachim (a violinist) and his recommended teacher (Karl Heinrich Barth) were limited at best.  Then, at the age of fourteen and on, he was encouraged to begin his concert career.

2)  This man was a phenomenal sight reader who could basically (not note perfect, his words)learn most pieces in a very short period of time.  Therefore, early on (like Gieseking and Backhaus) a record producer could put Rubinstein in a studio at the beginning of the day, and then shortly thereafter would have a finished product.

3)  Does that mean he had never formally studied any of his over two hundred recording sessions repertoire under any specific teacher?  Yes, it does not!  Otherwise, every single biography of this world renowned pianist would have said so, and in specific detail.

Accordingly, did he play any of his pieces in the performance practice of the common performance practice of the 19th Century?  No, he did not!

4)  Specific to the OP, and my "Original Performance" post

,  this video, as all of Rubinstein's recordings were a fraud.  Alfred Cortot did not play the piece showcased in this video like him (as the composer did), nor did Moritz Rosenthal, both of whom were students of teachers whose teacher was FREDERYK CHOPIN!

5)  The actual "nail in the coffin" was the first Chopin International Piano Competition in 1923.  Behind the scenes, a Concert Pianist named Rubinstein was badgering the Jury to ensure, in no uncertain terms, that whoever won the Competition would not be playing Chopin's music in the common rolled chord/arpeggiated fashion.

6)  What finally happened is that the Chair of the Original Competition Jury resigned in protest, and Artur Rubinstein got his way.

The rest is history, UNTIL NOW!

[keypeg]

This isn't a joke on my part and he was somberly serious about it.  Because this was/is an experience that occurred within the time frame of a crime committed on October 1, 1955 A.D. through November 8, 2012 A.D. (and continuing), I, for one, can honestly say that I have gone to court about it, though as a victim falsely accused, and I also see Artur as a victim of the same crime because the attempts to not only silence the crime but to use me and others as a scapegoat continue.

That might sound like something far removed from his trip to Russia, but it actually isn't.

The concert, at least to me, is impeccable.

In your first post you wrote this:

I met Artur for the first time on the street just before he went to play this concert (he was about 70 years my senior) :

The second time was after it in my kitchen asking for a soda, and he said that it wasn't (didn't think it was) successful.

How can meeting someone on the street be a "crime"?  If you met him before a concert, and after the concert, that would be a matter of hours, not from 1955 to 2012.  If he died in 1982, how could you have spoken to, or seen him, in 2012?
You seem to be writing in riddles.
How about saying what you actually mean?

The responding post by Louispodesta is just as confusing.

Why don't you guys say what you mean, instead of hinting at things?  What does the fact that Rubinstein's lessons stopped at age 16 have to do with meeting somebody for a soda?  Or a "crime"? (what crime?)

[ed palamar]

Then he looked right at me and said, "I don't want you to turn out like this."

[keypeg]

Ok, so it's some kind of personal game between two people.  Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss it (whatever "it" is) privately?

[mjames]

Stop wasting your time on the mentally ill, Keypeg.

[tenk]

Re:  "ed palamar" and his two posts, I proffer the following response:

1)  I did not broach this subject, you did.  So, the truth be known, Artur (Arthur) Rubinstein never had a piano lesson after the age of sixteen.  His studies under Joseph Joachim (a violinist) and his recommended teacher (Karl Heinrich Barth) were limited at best.  Then, at the age of fourteen and on, he was encouraged to begin his concert career.

What does this have to do with the OP?

2)  This man was a phenomenal sight reader who could basically (not note perfect, his words)learn most pieces in a very short period of time.  Therefore, early on (like Gieseking and Backhaus) a record producer could put Rubinstein in a studio at the beginning of the day, and then shortly thereafter would have a finished product.

What does this have to do with the OP?

3)  Does that mean he had never formally studied any of his over two hundred recording sessions repertoire under any specific teacher?  Yes, it does not!  Otherwise, every single biography of this world renowned pianist would have said so, and in specific detail.

Accordingly, did he play any of his pieces in the performance practice of the common performance practice of the 19th Century?  No, he did not!

What does this have to do with the OP?

4)  Specific to the OP, and my "Original Performance" post

,  this video, as all of Rubinstein's recordings were a fraud.  Alfred Cortot did not play the piece showcased in this video like him (as the composer did), nor did Moritz Rosenthal, both of whom were students of teachers whose teacher was FREDERYK CHOPIN!

And we've arrived! You somehow managed to take this mostly inane OP and somehow shoehorn in a reference to your rolling chords video. Bravo, Louis...bravo. Also this:

as all of Rubinstein's recordings were a fraud.

is just pure, unadulterated bullsh!t. If you're going to claim Rubinstein's recordings were a fraud, you better have a damn good source for it other than your own pointless musings.

5)  The actual "nail in the coffin" was the first Chopin International Piano Competition in 1923.  Behind the scenes, a Concert Pianist named Rubinstein was badgering the Jury to ensure, in no uncertain terms, that whoever won the Competition would not be playing Chopin's music in the common rolled chord/arpeggiated fashion.

What does this have to do with the OP?

6)  What finally happened is that the Chair of the Original Competition Jury resigned in protest, and Artur Rubinstein got his way.

The rest is history, UNTIL NOW!

So all of your blathering was just so you could post a link to your rolling chords video. Wasn't sure if you could sink lower, but you've managed to dive below even my lowest expectations for your posts. Bravo yet again

[keypeg]

What does this have to do with the OP?

Yes, but the OP itself makes no sense.  So it is a non-pertinent "response" to something nonsensical.

The advice of mjames of not responding to this thread seems well placed.

[tenk]

Yes, but the OP itself makes no sense.

I agree. I was mainly making the point that Louis took an otherwise absurd OP as an opportunity to push his rolling chords video and make bogus claims like Rubinstein's recordings were frauds.

[louispodesta]

I agree. I was mainly making the point that Louis took an otherwise absurd OP as an opportunity to push his rolling chords video and make bogus claims like Rubinstein's recordings were frauds.

Re:  "keypeg"
Why don't you guys say what you mean, instead of hinting at things?  What does the fact that Rubinstein's lessons stopped at age 16 have to do with meeting somebody for a soda?  Or a "crime"? (what crime?)

Re:  OP
Then he looked right at me and said, "I don't want you to turn out like this."

Okay, one of the few books I actually read twice (I am an ASPY, remember!) was the first volume of "Arthur" Rubinstein's biography.  At the time, it was truly inspirational because regardless of the circumstance, the man would never give up.

Later on, I realized that he was sight reading all of his recordings material, and his Impresario, (not Manager, Sol Hurok) literally hooked this man up within the classical piano keyboard elite like he was God!  "They would rush the stage and ask to kiss his hands," is a perfect example as to what I allude.

[Parenthetically, his "recordings are not frauds."  They just do not even remotely reflect the performance practice of the concert pianists of the day who were the same age as Rubinstein, but had actually studied extensively with teachers who had studied under students of the great composer/pianists themselves.]

After that, I radically changed my way of thinking about this "GREAT CONCERT PIANIST."  Even when he was not up to par, he would do anything to make one feel sorry for him.  This was a man who admitted in writing that (until he was in his mid 50's) that he never even remotely played a piece "note perfect."  He used trick pedaling on all of his scale runs, as well as his long arpeggios, and improvised endings when he could not remember the notes.



So, once again, just like Lang Lang, a post has come out of nowhere on a pianist who has hundreds of recordings out there that are not selling.  And, I am supposed to believe any of the OP's statement are true.



"Louis, your paranoia believes that a great deal of the posts on this website are made up."  You damn right I do.  Accordingly, please cite me that last date and time on this website that anyone posted a thread (not a puff piece on his German documentary) about Arthur Rubinstein.

[louispodesta]

Nice try, Moderator, who posted my response before it was finished and edited for content.

My final version deleted the last three paragraphs, and also referenced Rubinstein's trick pedaling as to what he commonly did in live performance.

[themeandvariation]

Ive heard some of Rubinstein's earlier recordings.. and found them surprisingly bad technically… But i remember an interview where he said that he was 'faking it' - and finally got serious - and started Really practicing - iirc - in his late 30's or early 40's..
For me, the later recordings show his ingenious poetry (and technical command!) .. whether he rolled or not.. His musical spirit - is an undeniable force… (in the eye of the beholder, of course)

[keypeg]

And, I am supposed to believe any of the OP's statement are true.

Do you really need to have any kind of background to come to the conclusion that Rubinstein did not drop in at the OP's house to ask for a soda? (The last part of the opening post)

You quoted me (my comment on the OP's post, not yours, btw), and then wrote about the background of what you have read.  It does not make anything make sense.

[louispodesta]

Ive heard some of Rubinstein's earlier recordings.. and found them surprisingly bad technically… But i remember an interview where he said that he was 'faking it' - and finally got serious - and started Really practicing - iirc - in his late 30's or early 40's..
For me, the later recordings show his ingenious poetry (and technical command!) .. whether he rolled or not.. His musical spirit - is an undeniable force… (in the eye of the beholder, of course)

Great response, I could not hoped for better.  I mean this as a compliment.

1)  Why, all of a sudden did the top performing classical pianist (reviews and price performance) all of a sudden "get religion."

2)  This was in part due to his self-fulfilled prophecy that no one should play in the original performance style (1st International Chopin Competition).  As to why he never did, I have already answered that question.  You cannot play what you have never been taught.

3)  First and foremost, Arthur Rubinstein (to this very day) is promoted to a level that no modern pianist would have ever seen. 

[beethovenfan01]

This is one of the most convoluted and confusing threads I have ever seen ...

[keypeg]

This is one of the most convoluted and confusing threads I have ever seen ...

Try meaningless.
I'm out.

[ed palamar]

Noting his disappointment I replied, "You look great!"

I've been thinking about that kitchen meeting with Artur, and how if it had been a few years earlier, he might have been gunned down.

[lostinidlewonder]

Try meaningless.
I'm out.

Just check the OPers post history and you will see why you should have just run away from this entire thread.

[cuberdrift]

Didn't Rubinstein start becoming serious when he felt Horowitz was upstaging him?

Rubinstein was supposedly one of the people who affirmed that Horowitz was gay.

Many people say Rubinstein isn't a technique god. What do you mean by "technique", how many notes are correct/incorrect?

Anyway, so Rubinstein is not faithful to the old music. How about Horowitz? Cziffra? How about...Arrau? Michelangeli? What Level 10 (Grandmaster level, "Legend" status) pianists have played these old music pieces correctly? I'm curious.

Regards,
cuberdrift

[keypeg]

Just check the OPers post history and you will see why you should have just run away from this entire thread.

I looked at a couple yesterday.  Personally I find it disrespectful to members to post meaningless things.

[ed palamar]

Re:  "ed palamar" and his two posts, I proffer the following response:

1)  I did not broach this subject, you did.

Checking the definition of broach, it implies that the matter is sensitive/difficult, but to me, at least, it is also glorious.

Had Artur been there a few years later, he may have had his face bashed in, and not by me.

But the bottom line of the locale is this, my kitchen is still my kitchen, if you commit a crime in it (or anywhere else) you don't have the upper hand.

The current philosophy here at pianostreet, however, is something different.

The whole matter of going to court about, yes, even meetings with one of the greatest concert pianists, has included facing the concept (words), "everlasting captives".

I was a captive for 698 days, rather recently yet, and I've noticed that this 698 days is coming back to me another way, in the form of a count down / count up; the counting is such that, so it seems, it cannot be changed. (the option to roll a chord and/or play ones favorite style of cantabile, however, seems to remain intact)

That's why I included a question mark with the topic title, it is still a matter of scrutiny, not mutiny.

A Symphony of the Seas celebration of this seems most appropriate.

[lostinidlewonder]

Schizophrenia is a sad illness to deal with, Ed take your meds, visit your shrink for heavens sake.

[louispodesta]

Dear Keypeg:

Thank you so very much for caring because you genuinely do.  Also, as I have alluded to before, this is why I find these types of posts highly suspect because they smell of self-promotion.

Nevertheless, let us take the OP at face of Arthur Rubinstein as a regular person that one could form a relationship off of a chance meeting on the street.

Parenthetically, it took me from the year 2000 (until four years ago) to confirm my thesis of original performance practice.  Until that point in time, as a philosopher I questioned/devil's advocate/challenged everything that I had ever been taught.

Regarding the credibility of Arthur Rubinstein, he stated (in his first book) that he would never perform in Germany because of the Kaiser's invasion into Poland.  Yet, his recent family's documentary (featured prominently on this Website) was entirely a German production, including his speaking entirely in their language.  Hey:  money talks?

On point, Rubinstein, Gieseking, Backhaus, and Arrau, never had a teacher as an adult.  Please name me one alive concert pianist (Brendel is lying) that never had a lesson/significant coaching as an adult.  Would any of you or any teacher you personally know or heard of who would ever recommend this pathway to successful matriculation at the piano?

They, like Andres Schiff (Utchida) sight-read most of their recordings in the studio.  Earl Wild states in his Memoir that Gieseking had never even played half of the Mozart individual piano works prior to his recording the entire set.  Hey, the man (Wild) was there recording at the same time, and his surviving partner Michael Rolland Davis can back it up and then some (ivoryclassics.com).

Finally, I list, which has been widely ridiculed/denigrated in the past, links to live recordings as to how the piano was originally played.  These are pianists, both of whom studied under students of Chopin, enjoy:

Please notice the playing the bass note slightly ahead of the soprano in order to accentuate the melodic line, the definite rolling of chords, and the modification of tempo.

And finally, here is the great Rubinstein's (sight read) recordings of these same pieces.

You decide between a man who never had a piano lesson after the age of sixteen, and then two of the most widely recognized Chopin specialists of all of time whom, as aforementioned, did study these pieces from students of Fryderik Chopin!

As a suggestion, you and your ears decide, and not your teacher mind and ears,

[perfect_pitch]

Also, as I have alluded to before, this is why I find these types of posts highly suspect because they smell of self-promotion.

SERIOUSLY??? Coming from you, that's a bloody understatement. How many times have you posted a link to your video about rolling chords and slightly separating bass and melodic notes???

You're one of the worst in terms of self-promotion.

[louispodesta]

SERIOUSLY??? Coming from you, that's a bloody understatement. How many times have you posted a link to your video about rolling chords and slightly separating bass and melodic notes???

You're one of the worst in terms of self-promotion.

Since you are the expert, please post a detailed critic regarding the difference between Cortot's and Rosenthal's recordings and that of the great Arthur Rubinstein. 

[perfect_pitch]

Since you are the expert, please post a detailed critic regarding the difference between Cortot's and Rosenthal's recordings and that of the great Arthur Rubinstein. 

That has NOTHING to do with my point. My point was that you have hijacked a number of threads and posted your video in an effort to boost views on your YouTube channel. You've pasted it more than 50 times in 50 different threads, which in my opinion goes far and above SPAMMING.

Do not criticise others for what you call spamming, if you fail to see that what you've done is far worse.

[keypeg]

The original post cannot be self-promoting because there is nothing to promote.  I.e., if someone gives another person a soda in his kitchen, is this a promotion of the great art of "soft drink handovers" (I'm assuming that "soda" is Americanese for soft drink.)  It could only be self-promoting if posted on a site of people who sell junk food or something of that nature.

[ed palamar]

If you met him before a concert, and after the concert, that would be a matter of hours,

I stayed state side during his trip.

Also, I never stated that meeting Artur on the street was a crime, your nesting an implication that it was within an interrogative doesn't make it one either.

[ed palamar]

Nevertheless, let us take the OP at face of Arthur Rubinstein as a regular person that one could form a relationship off of a chance meeting on the street.

I see it as something more than that, specifically I didn't know much about piano performance at that time, nor when I saw Artur for the first time did I know his name, but he looked impressive.

I also have come to know more of my perspective in hindsight and how there was more to it than a mere 'chance meeting'.

It has only been recently that I have read of prophecy that indicates that Russia is to be something of an 'equalizer' in these final days.

[ed palamar]

Okay, one of the few books I actually read twice (I am an ASPY, remember!) was the first volume of "Arthur" Rubinstein's biography.

I'm curious, Louis, did you ever read the second volume?

[ed palamar]

The original post cannot be self-promoting because there is nothing to promote.  I.e., if someone gives another person a soda in his kitchen, is this a promotion of the great art of "soft drink handovers" (I'm assuming that "soda" is Americanese for soft drink.)  It could only be self-promoting if posted on a site of people who sell junk food or something of that nature.

This is where the story has another 'hitch', so to speak.

I didn't actually know where the soda was kept, so when Artur said, "Root beer, if you have it.", I was somewhat at a loss as I told him that.

Were it not for my brother coming into the kitchen and my asking him as to where we keep the soda, I would have begun one of the worst bar tending careers ever.

[ed palamar]

One of the points made in this thread concerns rolling chords at times when it is not indicated to do so.

There seems to be some validity to this, and I include some personal experience where I have taken similar liberties :

the score : https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=57241.0

the performance : https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/player.cfm?type=single&songid=6987843&q=hi&newref=1