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Trifonov Live in Carnegie Hall

Hear Trifonovs captivating recital at Carnegie Hall as of December 7th in works by Schumann, Shostakovich, Stravinsky and encores by Medtner. The music on this program requires poetry and passion that only a master pianist can deliver. “Daniil Trifonov’s playing has it all … he leaves you struggling for superlatives,” said The Guardian. Read more >>

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Author Topic: What is the name of this chord?  (Read 686 times)
ranjit
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« on: August 27, 2017, 07:47:50 AM »

Eb-G-Bb-Gb-A-Db.

That is, a major chord and the major chord of the minor third above it, played simultaneously. Does this have a name? It sounds jazzy, and I'm pretty sure I've heard it somewhere.
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Bob
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 10:44:09 AM »

I haven't thought about it for a while but is that....

V7, raised 4th (11th), flat 3 (10th)

Or V7, raised 9th (spelled enharmonically), raised 11th ?  

Or dominant 11th, raised 9, raised 11?

Dom 9, raised 11?   with a lowered 10th/raised 9th?


https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music_Theory/Complete_List_of_Chord_Patterns#9th.2C_11th.2C_and_13th_chords


Or just... Dominant, raised 11th, flat 13th?   9th is implied.
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klavieronin
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 01:16:01 PM »

Isolated on it's own, I'd call it a polychord: F sharp minor over E flat major. (The Gb and Db you put should really be F# and C#.) Context is always key though and could change the analysis.
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ranjit
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 06:40:58 AM »

Isolated on it's own, I'd call it a polychord: F sharp minor over E flat major. (The Gb and Db you put should really be F# and C#.) Context is always key though and could change the analysis.

Interesting...I've never heard about polychords before. How are they used?
Judging by the name, though, I'm pretty sure this is what I was looking for.
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ted
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »

Yes, that sound is a good one. In the key of Eb, the Gb is the minor third, the A is the tritone and the Db is the seventh - all three blue notes, which happen to form an F# minor chord. Nice and easy way of voicing a complex sound for improvisational purposes. Brubeck made a big thing of seeing big fat chords as combinations of simpler ones like this. Perhaps he got it from Milhaud.
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 09:29:03 AM »

Isolated on it's own, I'd call it a polychord: F sharp minor over E flat major. (The Gb and Db you put should really be F# and C#.) Context is always key though and could change the analysis.

Agreed, apart from: is it not better to think of the top portion enharmonically? - the A is a B double flat, and it's Gb minor over Eb major.
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klavieronin
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 11:29:22 PM »

Agreed, apart from: is it not better to think of the top portion enharmonically? - the A is a B double flat, and it's Gb minor over Eb major.

Ah, yes. I hadn't considered Gb minor. Although it would depend on whether you wanted a #9 or a b10 as the root of the top chord.
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Bob
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 10:40:39 PM »

Is there a jazz person around who can give us "the answer?"
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mdecks
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 01:47:42 AM »

Eb-G-Bb-Gb-A-Db.

That is, a major chord and the major chord of the minor third above it, played simultaneously. Does this have a name? It sounds jazzy, and I'm pretty sure I've heard it somewhere.

If you assume Eb is the root of the chord then it is an Eb7#9#11
You may also think of the chord-scale from that chord:
Eb F# G A Bb Db which is a Hexatonic Io:IIIo which is a Lydianb7(#9)
or you can see it as F#m over an Eb7

I took a screenshot in Tessitura Pro after entering the scale (attached)






* ssscale.jpg (521.04 KB, 1280x840 - viewed 6 times.)
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j_tour
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 07:23:46 AM »

I agree with the above:  just an Eb#9,#11

Never consciously heard it played or played it myself with the m7 on top, unless it's the melody, but anyone would know what the chord is if it's supposed to be an Eb7 of some kind.  I'd just as soon stick the #11 on top, or the third or the raised nine.

I personally don't use the slash chord notation when writing lead sheets, but IME a lot of bassists do speak in those terms, and arguably a lot of reharmonizations of pop tunes come from them, so it's good to at least know a few ways to write a chord symbol.

You can probably find that chord in "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," somewhere.
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dcstudio
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 07:54:59 AM »

It's Eb#9#11..but without seeing the score it's really not possible to determine its function.  The #9#11 is in essence a way of playing the dominant 7 and the tritone sub chord at the same time. It's pretty common in jazz and makes that unique dark dissonant "jazz" sound. It contains both the major and minor 3rd of the chord which obscures the tonality to the ear, which is kinda the whole point.





You can probably find that chord in "Goodbye Porkpie Hat," somewhere.
.

As for Goodbye Pork pie hat...the #9 isn't written in the standard changes always but if you include the melody tone the first chord is F7 #9...some pianists add the #11..
So you are absolutely right..

 Great tune BTW.
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vaniii
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 12:16:19 AM »

.
glad you're here.
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Bob
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 06:32:20 AM »

How would you say it commonly?

"E-flat, raised 9, raised 11?"

or

"E-flat, sharp 9, sharp 11?"  Knowing that sharp might really mean 'naturaled' or raised in a flat key like this.

What's the standard jazz chord lingo for this?
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dcstudio
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 11:44:37 AM »

Eb sharp 9 sharp 11.  Generally speaking if the 9th is sharp you are free to add the sharp 11. Sometimes it's just written out "dom7 alt" (altered) in older versions of the real book.  It means that you are kinda free to make it as dissonant as you please. 
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j_tour
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 03:40:02 AM »

Eb sharp 9 sharp 11.  Generally speaking if the 9th is sharp you are free to add the sharp 11. Sometimes it's just written out "dom7 alt" (altered) in older versions of the real book.  It means that you are kinda free to make it as dissonant as you please. 

You know, I was thinking about this and realized I've only rarely heard the chord name in conversation.  Then again, I don't generally talk to other keyboard players about chords, and, well, guitarists, you know....have to make things simple for them!  Smiley

Usually I've just heard people say "alt" in person which gets the point across, even though I'm not a fan of the "alt scale" it's canonically associated with -- nothing against people who use it, but I've never transcribed a solo which actually used which couldn't be better explained by just playing the tensions and deriving things from the diminished scales.
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xdjuicebox
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« Reply #15 on: Today at 01:06:08 AM »

Looks like Eb7 #11 #9, but I'd need to see it in context
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My Sonata No. 1, Mov. 1 and 4 (2 and 3 are still being edited)

Kreisler-Rach Liebesleid
Rach 33-4
Scriabin 8-12

Don't practice much anymore because I need the time to compose Sad
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