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Can We Play Like Mozart Did?

Classical piano pieces by such composers as Beethoven, Mozart and Chopin likely sounded much different when the masters first performed those works than they do today. Pianos themselves have changed considerably — but so, too, has technique. Read more >>

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artlin02
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« on: September 07, 2017, 06:09:30 PM »

If some big concert pianist like Martha Argerich, Daniil Tifonov or Valentina Lisitsa for example, get invited to play at a concert hall somwhere, do they pay their own plane tickets and hotel or does the concert hall pay?
Always been curious, don't know how it works.
First posted this under anything but piano but didn't get any answers.
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cimirro
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 06:26:19 PM »

If some big concert pianist like Martha Argerich, Daniil Tifonov or Valentina Lisitsa for example, get invited to play at a concert hall somwhere, do they pay their own plane tickets and hotel or does the concert hall pay?
Always been curious, don't know how it works.
First posted this under anything but piano but didn't get any answers.
No concert hall pay for artists - the concert hall only receives money.
The responsible for such expenses normally will be the sponsors, but the best person to answer about this are their managers (who organize this)... and I'm afraid you will not find any real managers in piano forums nor they will answer you by their webapge...
Hope this helps
All the Best
Artur Cimirro
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timothy42b
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 06:58:08 PM »

the best person to answer about this are their managers (who organize this)... and I'm afraid you will not find any real managers in piano forums

Half true.

The other person who could answer is the concert pianist himself, who very well might be here.

or we could ask wkmt
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Tim
cimirro
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 07:20:46 PM »

Half true.

The other person who could answer is the concert pianist himself, who very well might be here.

or we could ask wkmt
Can I ask you what would be a complete true, then?... Do you really think the 3 mentioned pianists will answer you about this? Actually can you really contact Argerich by e-mail without being involved with her manager?
If this happens, I'll be amazed...

Anyway, you probably have not noticed, but the post was answered by a concert pianist www.arturcimirro.com.br  Roll Eyes

Best
Artur Cimirro
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2017, 11:52:15 AM »

My late teacher (who was a distinguished UK figure with a lengthy career) wanted me to do some "big" London recitals "to get noticed", rather than what I've been doing ie small local recitals. He did warn me though: if you put on a recital at the Wigmore Hall (which is the premiere venue for solo piano recitals) you need to be either independently wealthy or have sponsors. From direct personal experience he said you will have to pay the bill for everything associated with the event (ie printing programmes, paying door staff, ushers, I assume hall hire, etc, etc.) I'm not going to go into figures but suffice it to say that from a personal perspective making two cds was a better, and cheaper, option. Most career pianists make far more money from teaching than performing. It's possible the "superstars" get appearance money but I don't know.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2017, 03:28:58 PM »

Most career pianists make far more money from teaching than performing. It's possible the "superstars" get appearance money but I don't know.

Are you assuming a career pianist is only a solo classical artist?

Here are some names that I suspect make very little money from teaching, but are very very rich:
Jim Morrison with the Doors
David Bryan with Bon Jovi
Robert Lamm with Chicago
Tony Banks with Genesis
Chuck Leavell with Rolling Stones
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Tim
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2017, 03:44:32 PM »

Are you assuming a career pianist is only a solo classical artist?

Here are some names that I suspect make very little money from teaching, but are very very rich:
Jim Morrison with the Doors
David Bryan with Bon Jovi
Robert Lamm with Chicago
Tony Banks with Genesis
Chuck Leavell with Rolling Stones


I think it's fairly obvious we're discussing classical artists here.  And Jim Morrison is a. very very dead and b. not Ray Manzarek.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2017, 03:48:15 PM »

But discussing money and classical piano together is kind of dumb, don't you think?

There's a bigger world out there. 
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Tim
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2017, 03:50:18 PM »

No, it's being realistic (if you want to perform in a classical framework you need to realise and accept there isn't a big pot of money for lots of people), and it's the context of the original post.
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mjames
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 07:33:16 PM »

Most wealthy soloists living today were born into wealthy families, chances are even if you're a classical superstar you won't get rich from it. If wealth is a concern then I suggest you look for an alternative career path.

There might be a chance if you're quite possibly the first person from your ethnic group/nationality to breakthrough the piano world. For example most "first Chinese/Korean/ X country/Asian pianists to win X competition" managed to become rich superstars, but tbh even that isn't a guarantee. Hardly anyone knows Dong Thai Son.
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anon0987654321
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 04:24:16 PM »

The organizers of the concert will pay you a fee, in my experience £400-£1000 and travel fees, unless its a local concert.
A lot of the time, they take quite a while to pay.
Recently did a concert with an extremely well known conductor (whose name I will not mention). And after a month I have not been paid yet...
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louispodesta
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2017, 11:03:31 PM »

Welcome to the "Real World."

Accordingly, the next time someone on this website or HRH's F. Baxter's website, they might mention this extremely important post.

On point, "Artur" Arthur Rubinstein never had a formal teacher after the age of 16, Gieseking (19) Backhaus (16?) and Arrau (15).

Therefore, especially with Rubinstein, they did not have Managers.  They had Impresarios (Sol Hurok).

They turned pianists into Gods!  And, per the OP,  that reality no longer exists.
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keypeg
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 04:16:22 AM »




  
This makes no sense.
On point, "Artur" Arthur Rubinstein never had a formal teacher after the age of 16, Gieseking (19) Backhaus (16?) and Arrau (15).

Therefore, especially with Rubinstein, they did not have Managers.  They had Impresarios (Sol Hurok).
How long somebody studied or had a teacher is not related to whether, later, somebody made arrangements for them.  People study their profession before becoming professionals.  Later one practises one's profession.  That is no longer the learning stage (which is what teachers are about).  Whether you call the person who makes arrangements for performances a manager, an impresario or something else, what does have to do with the length of time with a teacher?  (Arrau's teacher died on him.  He expressed regret at this, in the interview I saw.)
Quote
They turned pianists into Gods!  
I cannot -- quite literally --- understand what that means.  But in any case, whether they were "Gods", unicorns, or pianists --- the question was who pays travel expenses for an engagement.  And I cannot see how length of study time with a teacher has anything to do with who pays for the travel expenses.
Quote
And, per the OP,  that reality no longer exists.
The OP asked a question.  He asked whether the performers he mentioned paid for their travel expenses.  How does such a question turn into a statement that the reality (of what - performers being turned into "Gods" by impresarios?) into a non-reality?

What bothers me is the repeated attack on people, sarcasm pseudo titles like HRH. Cannot we not just discuss things being put forth?  And that thing - not other things not on the table such as "gods". At least, could statements be written with clarity so they are slightly comprehensible?  Not riddles with inuendo?
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louispodesta
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2017, 11:12:41 PM »

Here is the drill:

1)  In the U.S., you are a signed "Steinway Artist" that is managed by Columbia Artists or you do not exist, in terms of getting any major performance booking (that means travel re-imbursement).

2)  Absent that reality, you can win all the contests you want, and you will go nowhere, fast.

3)  John Nakamatsu (Cliburn Gold Medal) is a perfect example.  He has no major label recording contract, and when you visit his website, you can determine for yourself, whether or not he pays his own travelling expenses.  Sometimes yes, and sometimes not.

4)  I have a former music school colleague who won the Naumberg, who is now a Booking Agent.

5)  Andre Watts has had four different Artist in Residence Posts in the last 20 years.  Please name me any major record label he is signed with.  Oh, and parenthetically, most orchestras pay his travel.  Figure it out for yourself, as to why he is the exception.

Finally, the OP is nothing more than a very small portion of the Cliburn Competition like fostered myth.  Just think of all of the DMA's who are either teaching K-5 and additionally a whole lot of 9 years olds who can barely find "Middle C."
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lostinidlewonder
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 04:31:47 AM »

When I was studying under Roger Woodward there were several concerts he did where he was paid a set sum and this would cover his performance and costs. i remember him saying he would only do concerts where he was paid a certain amount though occasionally would do smaller venues to spread the music culture and accept whatever money the concert made.
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toughbo
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2017, 12:16:59 PM »

Here in my country we have public tax records, so I know for a fact that our most known classical pianist makes more than a mill USD per year, and have been doing so for more than a decade.
He doesn't have time for much teaching...
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louispodesta
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 02:18:41 AM »

His name is?

The point is:  Martha Argerich no longer plays solo recitals because it is no longer worth her while.  And for the record, a very famous Conductor/Pianist declared solo piano performance dead in the mid-1970's.  His first name was "Lenny."

So, go ahead and perpetuate the myth because that is exactly what it is, with all of its Conservatory Method, Competition Prize, Note Perfect pianism.   And, then when you give your next lesson to some nine year old who will quit in two years, you let me know about how much someone gets paid for travel expenses.
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tenk
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 01:19:18 PM »

The point is:  Martha Argerich no longer plays solo recitals because it is no longer worth her while.

I know it's pointless asking when dealing with you but...you have a source for this claim?

And for the record, a very famous Conductor/Pianist declared solo piano performance dead in the mid-1970's.  His first name was "Lenny."

What does this have to do with travel costs?

So, go ahead and perpetuate the myth because that is exactly what it is, with all of its Conservatory Method, Competition Prize, Note Perfect pianism.   And, then when you give your next lesson to some nine year old who will quit in two years, you let me know about how much someone gets paid for travel expenses.

Please take your own advice here.
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toughbo
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2017, 12:08:36 PM »

His name is?

Quote
The point is:  Martha Argerich no longer plays solo recitals because it is no longer worth her while. 
Bs, she has stated more than enough times that she feels uncomfortable playing solo and that is the reason. Rest assured, she is in no dire need for money.
Quote
 And, then when you give your next lesson to some nine year old who will quit in two years, you let me know about how much someone gets paid for travel expenses.
I don't know about travel expenses, but it's quite clear that most known classical pianists have few money problems, look at their houses, cars, clothes etc. This comes from playing concerts, or are you telling me that they get nothing for playing to a packed thousand seater hall?
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louispodesta
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 11:39:43 PM »

Bs, she has stated more than enough times that she feels uncomfortable playing solo and that is the reason. Rest assured, she is in no dire need for money.I don't know about travel expenses, but it's quite clear that most known classical pianists have few money problems, look at their houses, cars, clothes etc. This comes from playing concerts, or are you telling me that they get nothing for playing to a packed thousand seater hall?
With all due respect, you and the rest of those who have posted (all Piano Competition aficionados), due not even remotely have a clue as to what Classical Piano Artists DO NOT GET PAID!  According to my teacher, Claudio Arrau was lucky to get $5,000 for a solo recital.

To state that Martha Argerich is "uncomfortable" playing in solo recital is:  in no uncertain terms, spitting in the face of every classical pianist that has ever lived.  How dare she say something like that!!!

Rock stars get paid millions for a Tour.  Now, that Pavarotti is dead, there is no classical pianist alive (now that Lang Lang has momentarily disappeared) that can command that type of fee.
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cimirro
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2017, 07:01:12 AM »

With all due respect, you and the rest of those who have posted (all Piano Competition aficionados), due not even remotely have a clue as to what Classical Piano Artists DO NOT GET PAID!  According to my teacher, Claudio Arrau was lucky to get $5,000 for a solo recital.

To state that Martha Argerich is "uncomfortable" playing in solo recital is:  in no uncertain terms, spitting in the face of every classical pianist that has ever lived.  How dare she say something like that!!!

Rock stars get paid millions for a Tour.  Now, that Pavarotti is dead, there is no classical pianist alive (now that Lang Lang has momentarily disappeared) that can command that type of fee.
Dear louispodesta,

That would be very nice of you if (next time we write in the same thread) you kindly "remove" me from the list of "Piano Competition aficionados" writing: "except Cimirro".
Clearly no one can include me in this "list" if knowing my work, so I strongly reccomend you take some minutes with these two links:
Videos and audios:
http://www.arturcimirro.com.br/en_videos.htm

Specially this: Giving one example of my book (Scientific System of Interpretation or Musical Hermeneutics) ideas, explaining why no one ever heard a recording of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata as it was written by the composer:
http://opusdissonus.com.br/CIMIRRO_studio-master-class_001.htm
Please note that there are 4 tracks - 1 with my speech while playing parts of the work, and 3 with each movement without any speech at all - all freely for download)

By the way, concerning the huge amount of fee payed for some rare selected "players" (which often I do not even call them "artists") I really think this is "too much" for them - so I understand your position about what is wrong in this world.
Anyway, there are some people who still get paid, some more, some less, personally I never had agents/managers/impresarios working for me, and even working like this, I NEVER paid myself my travels to play anywhere profissionally as a pianist - I have always been paid unless the organizers wanted me to leave the concert hall without playing a single note.

All the best
Artur Cimirro
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timothy42b
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2017, 11:56:11 AM »

With all due respect, you and the rest of those who have posted (all Piano Competition aficionados), due not even remotely have a clue as to what Classical Piano Artists DO NOT GET PAID!  According to my teacher, Claudio Arrau was lucky to get $5,000 for a solo recital.


Speak for yourself.  I don't leave the house for less than $200 (church gig) or twice that (Oktoberfest or similar). 

I don't make my living that way, I'm an engineer, but if I don't charge I depress the market for the musicians who do depend on it. 
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Tim
toughbo
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2017, 09:32:34 PM »

Seems you have a weak case as usual, Louis, and you may also exclude me from your competition afficionado list.
Did you ever notice that people tend to disagree with you on this forum? If so, what does that tell you? If not, I'm telling you now; please consider reading through the responses you've gotten during your time on this forum and tell me if you see a pattern.
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louispodesta
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2017, 11:01:53 PM »

Speak for yourself.  I don't leave the house for less than $200 (church gig) or twice that (Oktoberfest or similar). 

I don't make my living that way, I'm an engineer, but if I don't charge I depress the market for the musicians who do depend on it. 
Are you listening?  I think not.  $200 for a "Church Gig?"

I paid an Bishop $300 in 1986 for my formal Catholic Marriage Ceremony.  Additionally, there is no Rock Band in the U.S. that will do a Birthday Party, Bar Mitzvah, or Bris for less than a Thousand!

$200 is what the average family household pays for cat and dog food.  Then, you can add on the Veterinary bills, if you desire an extra dose of reality.

Parenthetically, if you are that good/worth it, then they will pay.

The bottom line is that until (and it has not happened, yet) Classical Musicians stand of for themselves, then nothing will change.
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keypeg
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 12:25:27 AM »

Are you listening?  I think not.  $200 for a "Church Gig?" ......
$200 is what the average family household pays for cat and dog food.  
You stated that musicians don't get paid for performances.  Timothy wrote that he gets paid $200.  Even if he got paid $1.00, this is still the opposite of not being paid.  I was "listening" - that is, reread what you wrote, to make sure.  I also have the impression that Tim was, since he responded to what you wrote.

You did not write that musicians get paid peanuts; you wrote that they do not get paid.  Your messages are confusing.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 12:21:04 PM »

Getting paid is much more rare for me now, based on the area, the groups I play with, and what I'm willing to do.  I'm wary of driving at night unless necessary, for example, and even staying up late is less inviting. 

In the old days I cashed a lot of "green sheet" checks.  Is anybody here old enough to remember those?  At the time I was a union member, and union rules said "no freebies." 

It's been a long time since I was paid for anything you could call classical.  Usually it's been a dinner or dance type gig, ribbon cutting, etc.  And yes, the group got $1000 in a lot of cases, but my share was significantly less. 
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Tim
timothy42b
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 12:37:08 PM »

Weird coincidence.  As I hit send, the phone rang.  It was from the downtown association of churches untied, who are putting on a civic event this weekend, a walk for hunger.  Will I please sing the National Anthem for the event? 

In my brain was the conversation we'd just had about getting paid for performing, and the urge to say I'd do it for $200.  Alas, I'm not always consistent, I agreed to do it for free. 

Now I feel the need to apologize to louispodesta.
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Tim
louispodesta
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 10:43:42 PM »

Anyone remember a pianist/composer named Beethoven?  He was the first keyboard performer who demanded that he be allowed through the "front door."

Prior to that, Mozart's widow was doing service as a chamber maid, emptying pots of excrement and urine in order to feed her family.  That is why the initial copyright laws were passed - out of shame!

Accordingly, there was no way "Ludwig" was going to allow that to happen to him.

So, when the classical pianists of today decide to band together (absent a union) to get paid what their decades of( learning/mastering) are worth, then things will change.

Parenthetically, and it will sound bizarre, please live the following example:  1)  I do the grocery shopping and cooking for Marsha and myself 2), accordingly, I stand in line behind those shoppers whose carts are filled to the brim.

Therefore, go to your local grocer on Sunday (not Saturday) and then see what the final total purchase price is.

Afterwards, you will never "low-ball"  a performance again.  Better yet, my plumber charges $75 a half hour just for labor.

Enough said.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 11:36:36 PM »


So, when the classical pianists of today decide to band together (absent a union) to get paid what their decades of( learning/mastering) are worth, then things will change.

You are assuming an intrinsic worth to those decades of learning - an entitlement.

Why do you think I am obligated to pay for your hobby?  <g>

In fact, people get paid because they earn money for their employer, and they earn money because there is demand for their services.

There is very little demand for classical piano, so no amount of unions will get you paid.

There is very little social desirability to a pianist, so no amount of elegant clothing will get you a date.  On the other hand, a bass guitarist with a week's worth of lessons can probably attract a groupie or two.  Or ten maybe. 
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Tim
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