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Author Topic: The only recording in the world of Schumann's "Traumerei" at the correct tempo  (Read 941 times)
vladimirdounin
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« on: November 08, 2017, 07:05:01 AM »

The only recording  in the world of Schumann's "Traumerei" at the correct,  AUTHENTIC  "Tempo = 100",  indicated  by Schumann instead of the usual "tempo for funeral".

Can we imagine that instead of light-hearted,  joyful  "Jingle Bells"  everyone in the world  played  this song as a  gloomy music for the funeral  at the speed of a snail?  This is  exactly what is happening today with  lovely Schumann's  "Traumerei".  It is only performed by everyone at a pace of a funeral march,  it is often included  in the funeral ceremony,  and it even sounds round-the-clock over the memorial of one-and- a- half million soldiers that died in the Second World War's "Stalingrad Battle".  But this is not something that is written for us by the composer at all.

Schumann's wife  Clara Wieck  was a wonderful pianist, judging from the feedback from many of her great contemporaries. Often she joked over Schumann that he seemed and behaved like a child. Those who have read the literary works of Schumann,  will most likely agree with her.  And there's nothing wrong with: many good people remain to be children until their last days - it had been noticed for long.


In response to these jokes of his famous wife,  Schumann wrote "30 easy and amusing (droll)  pieces for piano", from which  he selected later 13 pieces and titled this compilation "Children's scenes" ("The Kinderszenen").   The "Traumerei" ("Daydreaming") - is just one of these "Easy and Amusing Pieces."  Schumann probably meant precisely this feature of his own character.  He described these songs as "more CHEERFUL, gentler, more melodic" than his earlier works.

To avoid misrepresentation of  "Traumerei",  Schumann specially indicated  the EXACT TEMPO of performing: "Quarter note = 100 bpm ".  Unfortunately, the nowadays'  musicians prefer to copy the so-called "interpretation" of any celebrity, rather than to look at the score.  Recently  I  checked  all the  recordings of  "Traumerei" on  You-Tube.  No pianist has played this song at Schumann's  authentic tempo of "100".  Usually the tempo was  only "50" or lower.   At the same time, the most interesting rhythmic structure of this song is usually ignored  completely and replaced by the pianist's own improvisation in the style "ad libitum" = "as you like".

 And it is not random blunder of several musicians, but a  modern "philosophy of performing".    The most vivid presentation of  this "philosophy" I heard from  Mr. Richard Cock.  He told me: "What is your Bach in comparison with me? Bach today - it is only a handful of dust in his grave.  And I am an acting Principal Conductor  of the Radio and TV of South Africa.  Your Bach can not correct me, but I can correct Bach in any way I want."

With  this my recording of "Traumerei" in the Schumann's authentic tempo I invite all the musicians to perform this song  as it was written by the composer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ktiKOITBw


 I hope that among modern virtuoso pianists there should still be those who are able to record this most famous Schumann's song  at the genuine tempo and with the authentic rhythm instead of the usual rhythmic disorder in every measure of this great music.

I  hope sincerely   that my "record at authentic tempo" will not be  the only one in the world for a long time.

 I would be grateful for the links to these new recordings.

Vladimir Dounin
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perfect_pitch
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 10:09:12 AM »

No pianist has played this song at Schumann's  authentic tempo of "100".  Usually the tempo was  only "50" or lower.   At the same time, the most interesting rhythmic structure of this song is usually ignored  completely and replaced by the pianist's own improvisation in the style "ad libitum" = "as you like".

With  this my recording of "Traumerei" in the Schumann's authentic tempo I invite all the musicians to perform this song  as it was written by the composer.

I hope that among modern virtuoso pianists there should still be those who are able to record this most famous Schumann's song  at the genuine tempo and with the authentic rhythm instead of the usual rhythmic disorder in every measure of this great music.

I  hope sincerely   that my "record at authentic tempo" will not be  the only one in the world for a long time.

I'm going to say this nicely... but have you ever wondered why NONE of the great artists, not a single one played it at that speed??? Here are the 2 possibilities...

1) Every single pianist on the planet who has played this is an absolute idiot - incapable of reading a tempo marking on the page, and insists on trying to milk every single note as long as they can...

or...

2) It could very well be a mistake and that given a lot of the Scenes from Childhood have tempo markings where the quaver = the beat as opposed to a crotchet, it is most likely an oversight by the publisher who misread a quaver as a crotchet... and that the piece is meant to be slow and free because of the title 'Dreaming'.

Schumanns wife, Clara is reported to have even slowed it down to somewhere in the 70's because 100 is just idiotically too fast to be seriously thought of as 'dreaming'.

No offense, but your playing does not embody the mood of the title 'Dreaming' at all. It is way too fast, and sounds like a mess. Also, your LH is not perfectly in sync with your RH. There are multiple chords that are played out of time... you may need to work on that.

There is a reason the great pianists have never thought to play it as fast as you did... and a good one at that.
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 02:45:41 AM »

We have a very simple choice:

1. to be the second idiot after Schumann, who allegedly did not know difference between Quarter Note (crochet) and Eighth Note (quiver)

or

2. to be in a crowd of idiots, who are "smart enough" to correct genius and substitute great music with their own crap proudly called "interpretation".

My choice is to be with Schumann.

My reasons:

1. I tested "Traumerei" at Tempo = 100 and "Traumerei" at traditional "funeral tempo" on plenty of people, who have NEVER heard this song before and have no clue about performing traditions.
Today you can find such persons easily. Thanks to the followers of the numerous lang langs, this song  will become completely unknown very soon.

I used a strict researcher's pattern:

I played at Tempo=100 self and then asked my audience to listen to the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13g53OYFHyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z82w0l6kwE

and ANY OTHER on You Tube  by their choice

All of the "guinea pigs" were shocked that such a famous pianists played so terrible and stupid.

You can do the same test but, please, be fair:

Do your own (or anyone else's) recording not in studio, but in your bedroom (like me) and ask anyone to answer the following  question: "Which WAY TO PLAY do they prefer: my "100"  or yours "funeral like"?

I realize that technical quality of my first self-made  recording is very low but I thought that for stating the idea and igniting of discussion it can be enough. 

2. Probably, you know the most  reliable publisher G. Henle.  " They are characterized by their correct musical text – drawn up following strict scholarly principles – with an extensive commentary on the sources consulted (covering autographs, copies, early printings) and details regarding the readings." No wonder that we have to pay double-triple price for sheet music from them.

Here is their opinion on our topic:

„Träumerei“ – „Reverie“
by Wolf-Dieter Seiffert

01. July

This is probably Robert Schumann’s most famous composition. The title alone reads as a definition and characterization of “romanticism”. The epitome of the peak of the romantic period in German music history. How many hundreds of pianists have played Schumann’s “Träumerei” so often, so beautifully and above all soooooo slowly! A strong tradition that, whether consciously or subconsciously, you are compelled to follow when you sit down to play the “Träumerei” on your own piano.



And yet, the snail’s pace at which we are accustomed to hearing Schumann’s “Träumerei” is a great mistake. A hereditary defect (that originated from Clara Schumann). There are considerable, and truly convincing reasons against the slow tempo. Let me elaborate.

In my previous entry on the Schumann Forum (June 15, see below) I presented an overview of all of Schumann’s authentic metronome markings. I quoted a leading expert on Schumann who concludes that all of Schumann’s tempo instructions should be taken seriously and regarded at least as relevant pointers. It is certain that they were intended by Schumann and were not mistakenly noted. Today, as a sort of acid test, I would like to present to you Schumann’s most famous piano piece, played as he intended, at “MM quarter note = 100”. Because the piece is traditionally played so slowly, today’s pianists reaction is to say that Schumann’s tempo is fantastically fast. Too fast. But, is it really too fast?

I asked Michael Schäfer, a wonderful pianist and professor of piano at the Musikhochschule in Munich, to play the “Träumerei” in the original tempo. Before you shake your head, please listen to the piece, played only for us, exclusively for our forum:


The pace is unaccustomed and disturbing. Because we are used to hearing it differently, and have learned to love it that way. But if it were the first time you listened to the “Träumerei”, then you wouldn’t be disturbed at all. You would hear a beautiful piano piece in fluent movement with a recurring main theme with versatile and harmonious variations. Delicate retardations and accelerations make the music talk to you. Andreas Staier has since recorded it similarly and I hear from different corners of the music world that increasingly more renowned pianists are beginning to take more heed to Schumann’s metronome markings, including those of the “Kinderszenen”. Their concerts and recordings, I am strongly convinced, will set a new tradition.


Prof. Michael Schäfer
I interviewed Professor Schäfer and asked him how he felt at tempo 100, and was of course curious to hear his general opinion. His answer surprised me; he said he was very grateful for this “experiment”. He is now convinced that only the original tempo, or one very close to it, does the “little thing” (as Schumann himself called it) justice. So, in this case, the tradition is wrong. Please listen in to Michael Schäfer’s sharp-witted and entirely convincing argumentation (in German language).


I summarized the most important points, all of them in favour of Schumann’s “MM quarter note = 100“ in the “Träumerei”.

Abstract (pdf)


Illustration “Träumerei”,
© 2005 by Tatsuki Sakamoto
I can only encourage all of the readers of this forum who themselves play the piano to try it out. Play the “Träumerei”, not as you usually do, in deep-sleep mode, but in the tempo intended by the author. Apart from the objective, artistic and no less also acoustic reasons introduced by Michael Schäfer I would like to point you to another aspect of the piece that is worth contemplation: the title. I am convinced that Schumann would have named his piece differently if he had intended a slow to very slow tempo; he would have given it the title “A Dream” and not “Reverie”. Where is the difference, you might ask? Please read my short essay, “From deep sleep to MM 100. Some thoughts on Robert Schumann’s „Träumerei“ (Reverie)”

http://www.henle.de/en/schumann-anniversary-2010/schumann-forum/traeumerei-reverie.html

3. I appreciate your ability to catch my lack of full synchronization between melody and accompaniment. However, I need to remind that I did play romantic Schumann (Scarlatti). In romantic music delay of accompaniment is legal and even typical.

 

 







   
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cimirro
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 04:48:21 AM »

We have a very simple choice:

1. to be the second idiot after Schumann, who allegedly did not know difference between Quarter Note (crochet) and Eighth Note (quiver)

or

2. to be in a crowd of idiots, who are "smart enough" to correct genius and substitute great music with their own crap proudly called "interpretation".

My choice is to be with Schumann.

  
Dear Vladimir Dounin,

I have never played/studied this Schumann's piece, and I have 3 editions of Schumann's Op.15, including Henle,

Probably this "tradition" started just after Clara Schumann's edition where the original metronome mark is missing.

Anyway I'm very inclined to agree with you this is the right tempo as planned by Schumann.
Often when I study deeply a score I have no motives to "agree" with the tradition as you can see in my two master-classes where I point problems like this (and worst ones too!) in pieces by Liszt (Sonata in b minor) and Beethoven (Sonata Op.13 "Pathetique")
So please, take some time to check the information in this link since I'm pretty sure the themes I'm discussing there will be of interest to you.
http://opusdissonus.com.br/masterclasses/index.htm
(Just click on the photos, then and you can listen online or download the complete masterclass audio  - and also you can listen the full recording of the piece in question).

I completely agree with your opinion about people who are selecting "to be in a crowd of idiots, who are "smart enough" to correct genius and substitute great music with their own crap proudly called "interpretation"."

We have too much "wanna-be-piano-genius" who hardly are something more than a trained monkey and who often "decides" the great composers were "wrong" doing what they did (One example is Serkin/Schiff use of ritornello in Beethoven's "Pathetique" 1st movement and the lack of observation of the real theme which no pianist have played as written before my observations!)

But please remember, you can not be more "convincing" to the most part of people/public than their marketing on magazines interviews, radios and TVs - even when they are totally wrong - there is nothing we can do about it, only "time" can change some things and reasonable people will check if what is said is really accurate or not.

I understand your idea of starting a discussion, anyway, people will be far from interested if the interpretation doesn't help to prove the idea. And this is why perfect_pitch points the problems of your interpretation. So do not feel bad because of his comments.
If we want to prove something, we really need to "prove it".
(Indeed, you proved to ME, because I'm a professional pianist and I understand the idea while checking the score, but most part will be listeners only, so, here lies the importance of an "interpretation" to convince)

Anyway, good job, and I hope to hear from your impressions at some point on what I said in my audio master-classes, even if by a PM.

All the best
Artur
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chopinlover01
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 04:59:37 AM »

The circle jerk on this thread is amazing.

Something tells me that, somehow, you two aren't more educated on this than the literally everyone else who's recorded this.

By the way... your playing is a mess, sorry. If you're going to claim that you, and only you, have the correct interpretation, at least gets your hands together.
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cimirro
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 05:30:11 AM »

The circle jerk on this thread is amazing.

Something tells me that, somehow, you two aren't more educated on this than the literally everyone else who's recorded this.

Better than make any kind of "wanna-be-cool" statements ridiculing people you don't know, why don't you check what is being said?

Go to IMSLP website and open the reprint of the first edition, check the metronome mark, click the Henle link given by the OP and then make any statement about "something telling you something" in a right way.
Is that too difficult?

I'm not saying I'm "more educated on this", i never studied nor played this piece, I only mentioned I'm inclined to agree because I checked the scores I have and heard not only his youtube link.
There is no "circle jerk", and concerning my other statements, you can read and listen to my contributions to music in my website, in my recordings over Internet and in CD shops.
Would you kindly give me your credentials?

Best
Artur Cimirro
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chopinlover01
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 05:35:56 AM »

My post was directed at OP.

I don't know much about your playing, and I have much more important things to do than argue with trolls, but I hope you know I wasn't targeting you Smiley

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cimirro
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 05:45:32 AM »

My post was directed at OP.

I don't know much about your playing, and I have much more important things to do than argue with trolls, but I hope you know I wasn't targeting you Smiley


I can believe you, anyway what was strange in this case is the mention of a "circle jerk" and "you two" as you can read in the quote below:

The circle jerk on this thread is amazing.

Something tells me that, somehow, you two aren't more educated on this than the literally everyone else who's recorded this.

as much as the word "Troll", which I have no idea what is meaning here.

If none of this is related to me, than I have nothing to add. Wink

Since you don't know much about my playing, please take some minutes when you can in your free time to try something here: http://www.youtube.com/user/ArturCimirro/videos

All the best
Artur Cimirro
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 07:12:38 AM »


http://www.henle.de/files/essay_traeumerei.pdf


From deep sleep to MM 100
Some thoughts on Robert Schumann’s “Träumerei“ (Reverie)
© 2010 by Wolf-Dieter Seiffert (G. Henle Verlag)
© 2010 by Kristina Winter, Translation


In the same way that “Liebelei” (flirtation) is not “Liebe” (love), “Träumerei” (reverie) is not “Traum” (a dream).

 Before
one starts to play Robert Schumann’s probably most famous piano composition from the “Children’s Scenes” cycle, it’s
good to have a closer look at the title and the tempo instructions.
“Träumerei“ or, in English: reverie – what is that actually? Let’s detour by way of the aforementioned term “Liebelei”. In
German, the suffix “-lei” turns the word “Liebe” (love) into a feathertweight, transient, unimportant, in cases annoying
incident. In German the addition of the suffix “-lei”, “-rei” or “-ei”, added to certain words changes the quality of that
term, and immediately an important or beautiful thing is depreciated: Kind/Kinderei – child/childishness, Spiel/Spielerei –
play/foolish play, Traum/Träumerei – dream/reverie or daydream.
Allow me to quote an article from the “German Dictionary“ of the Brothers Grimm. Their definition of “Träumerei”
reads as follows: “phantastic and therefore meaningless thoughts and ideas”, but also “imaginative, but not completely
meaningless, rather quite serious and moreover interesting, sentimental or romantic thoughts and ideas” – “accompanied
by or conditioned by absent-mindedness.”
So then, the reverie is the featherweight, fleeting, yes possibly slightly annoying younger sister of a “real” dream. A
reverie – we would most likely substitute the wonderfully romantic expression with “daydream” – is a quiet, momentary
escape from the real word.
And how do you express that in music? It’s probably best not to lay too much depth, portentous gravity and weight into it.
After all, a daydreamer is not a deep sleeper. Technically that means to avoid strong rubati. (Schumann specifies a “ritardando”
only in the three instances, where parts meet.) And one shouldn’t excessively linger on the “sweet passages”,
otherwise you might risk the daydreamer falling asleep. (Schumann notes only one fermate, namely shortly before the
end!)
But over the course of time, Schumann’s “Träumerei“ has become the most portentous piece of the romantic period. It
tends to be arduously stretched out and wistfully indulged. But that was not Schumann’s intention, as we can already discern
from the meaning of the title. And there is another tiny indicator in favour of lightness vs. weightiness; Schumann’s
metronome marking reads “v = 100“, and that is truly surprisingly lively. The original metronome markings are often
blamed on broken metronomes. However, the Schumann researcher Michael Struck verified in two current publications
that the legend of Schumann’s malfunctioning metronome is a musicological myth that should be thrown into a historic
rubbish bin rather sooner than later.1
 Thus, the Henle Urtext edition rightly instructs the musician to play v = 100, and
Schumann intended it that way or at least close to that. It is Clara Schumann’s fault that the basic tempi – that do give the
impression of being quite fast – are often not taken seriously, especially those of the “Children’s Scenes”. Certainly the
metronome markings should not be dwelled on beyond proportion, but they need to be basically taken into consideration.
Lastly Schumann intended the basic pulse to be v = 100 and not v = 50. He calls the piece “Träumerei“ (Reverie) and
not “Traum“ (dream).
I invite you to try it out! You will find that the usual, deep sleep, portentously laden with feeling, meanders delicately
like an intermezzo – exactly in the middle of the 13 “Children’s Scenes“ – and becomes exactly what it is meant to be, a
reverie.
Schumann’s daydreamer very quickly returns to reality: the close listener of the opening movement of the following
piece from “Children’s Scenes“ is able to discover that someone is caught sitting before the fireplace.
1 „Träumerei“ und zahl-lose Probleme. Zur leidigen Tempofrage in Robert Schumanns „Kinderscenen“, in: Schumanniana nova. Festschrift Gerd Nauhaus
zum 60. Geburtstag [Sinzig 2002]. And: Schumann spielen … – Anmerkungen zur Wiedergabe der »Kinderszenen« im neuen Licht alter Metronomzahlen
und zum Spiel der »Gesänge der Frühe« , in: Der späte Schumann [= Musik-Konzepte 2006].
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 07:21:53 AM »



Anyway, good job, and I hope to hear from your impressions at some point on what I said in my audio master-classes, even if by a PM.

All the best
Artur


Thank you very much for serious and highly professional comments. I  am looking forward to listen to your masterclasses.

All the best!

Vladimir
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 07:27:02 AM »

, at least gets your hands together.
It is absolutely unnecessary and even bad idea in romantic music. Accompaniment can be a bit delayed. It is legal and appropriate in Chopin's, Liszt's and Schumann's music.

However, do not play Scarlatti like this.
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perfect_pitch
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 10:41:47 AM »

All of the "guinea pigs" were shocked that such famous pianists played so terrible and stupid.

You know what - that statement alone has no merit. How can we validate that your  'guinea pigs' said what you claim?

We don't. We simply have your word. And that alone has no merit.

On the other hand, there is a reason that people like Ashkenazy, Pollini, and hell - anyone else who has made a commercial recording of this pieces are household names, and yet if you ask people who Vladimir Dounin is... they'd look at you, like a dog would look at their owner who's shouting out nonsensical made-up words to them.

I think time will tell which tempo most people prefer... and you are well and truly alone in your interpretation. Also, I think it's funny that you disabled the upvotes and downvotes on your videos. I think someones embarrassed about what people will really think.
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 12:55:03 PM »

I started a thread about this very issue of whether composers are always right about their own music (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64342.0).

Personally I think you want to be careful about being too absolute when it comes to music. "Schumann's original tempo" may be a better way to describe what you are going for (and likely to get a lot less backlash Wink) rather than "correct tempo".

I do think people generally play "Traumerei" too slow though, especially Lang Lang. I like Wilhelm Kempff's recording which is maybe around 80 (allowing for rubato).

This thread does remind me though of this video by David Stanhope giving a little lecture on Chopin's Op.10 No.3 and the Godowsky etudes that go with it. Stanhope plays the Chopin original way faster than most people.

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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 09:17:18 PM »

For me , the tempo was just a little too much.. (for the story to unfold  like a day dream - which for me is a fitting title/framing of the composition..
(And yes, i do too think this one could do w a bit less (milking it) rubato that many employ..not you)

I too have reservations about the degree to which you employed 'asynchronization'… it seems absolutely constant, even until the very last beat!.. To my mind, when used That much, it becomes an affectation,  instead of employing it with discretion,  enhancing Certain areas for dramatic effect..

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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 01:30:35 AM »

I started a thread about this very issue of whether composers are always right about there own music (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64342.0).

This thread does remind me though of this video by David Stanhope giving a little lecture on Chopin's Op.10 No.3 and the Godowsky etudes that go with it. Stanhope plays the Chopin original way faster than most people.



Huh ... I'll keep this mind for if I ever damage my right hand ...
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Auditioning to U of O school of music:
Bach WTC Bk 1 No. 10
Beethoven Op. 81a (I.)
Rachmaninoff Op. 32 No. 10
Future:
Liszt Wilde Jagd, Dante, HR 6
Chopin Ballade 3
Beethoven Op. 57
Prokofiev
vladimirdounin
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 05:36:53 AM »

You know what - that statement alone has no merit. How can we validate that your  'guinea pigs' said what you claim?

We don't. We simply have your word. And that alone has no merit.


Probably, you have never heard the way science works. I'll explain this to you:

1. You discover some amazing effect let say in Chemistry. You publish your results and the EXACT WAY you got this effect.
2. Other scientists around the globe follow your way and confirm the same result.
3. You receive a Nobel Prize.

I did not ask anyone to believe me. I have absolutely NO NEED in your or somebody else believe. It is not a religion - it is art and science.

 I asked you to check my results with "guinea pigs", using YOUR or somebody else HOMEMADE recording. We don't need to spend thousands for nothing: just to check the reaction of UNFAMILIAR with Traumerei audience   
ON TEMPO ITSELF.  Nothing else is in our agenda.

So, if you want to know the truth then:

Step One: find around you several persons, who never heard Traumerei before. Today 99% of the people on the street do not know this song at all. 

Step Two:  let them to listen to my recording at tempo "100"

Step Three: let them listen to your recording "at funeral pace"

Step Four:   Bring your statistics here. Do not falsify, please.

The whole this research will cost you  four minutes spent on recording and 15 minutes on testing on people.

After this work your comments will have a real merit. Today - NO, sorry.
   
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 05:50:03 AM »



On the other hand, there is a reason that people like Ashkenazy, Pollini, and hell - anyone else who has made a commercial recording of this pieces are household names, and yet if you ask people who Vladimir Dounin is... they'd look at you, like a dog would look at their owner who's shouting out nonsensical made-up words to them.


It looks that you never have read this story:

"The Emperor's New Clothes" (Danish: Kejserens nye Klæder) is a short tale written by Danish author Hans Christian Andersen, about two weavers who promise an emperor a new suit of clothes that they say is invisible to those who are unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, no one dares to say that they do not see any suit of clothes on him for fear that they will be seen as "unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent". Finally, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!" The tale has been translated into over 100 languages.[1]

If you and many other people in the world do not know me, so, according to you, I have no right to cry: "The King is naked!"?  I know it for sure and can prove each my word and each my note.

Can you?
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 06:12:33 AM »



I think time will tell which tempo most people prefer... and you are well and truly alone in your interpretation. Also, I think it's funny that you disabled the upvotes and downvotes on your videos. I think someones embarrassed about what people will really think.

The time you mentioned tells  us already that audience prefers to listen to any sh*t but not to so called  "interpretations" of classic that are much worse than any sh*t. Almost nobody  already wants to listen to them.

No one composer wrote "classic". All of them tried to write popular music and some of them succeeded.  I am surrounded with hundreds of people, who still like classic  music sincerely and prefer it to anything else in the world. I appreciate their love and fight with everything that poisons this love.

Read my  detailed  comments on "The most overrated pianist ever".   People were standing 24/7 for THREE years on the street (they paid us -students to substitute them) under snow  and rain  in line to get ticket for the concert of Van Cliburn.

Today "kings of all pianists of the world" play for only chairs quite often.

I do not have my own site on You Tube. My friends give me accommodation from time to time.  I can not order them to open comments, because a lot of people have bad manners.

You have all the chances to communicate with me here. Is it not enough for you?
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perfect_pitch
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 09:35:18 AM »

Probably, you have never heard the way science works. I'll explain this to you

It looks that you never have read this story

You know what, I won't be baited this time into talking to a troll like yourself.

I think in trying to side with you however, Cimirro touched upon an interesting statement, which unfortunately seems to have also been your downfall:

Bring your statistics here. Do not falsify, please.

And yet, I asked you to do the exact same and you couldn't, so you don't have the right to try and use my argument against me, when I'm the one who brought the issue up first.

You carry on typing whatever non-sensical crap you want to in this thread you started. That's the beauty of the internet for some people - they can write about how unicorns exist, and that leprechauns and dragons are real, and they can use it to boost their own egos... much like the reason this thread was created.

I've got far better things to do than argue with trolls on the internet.
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2017, 04:49:52 PM »

What is the sense to be dishonest even here, in this discussion?

You quoted MY PHRASE ("Bring your statistics here. Please, do not falsify.") but you say falsely that this is a phrase of Cimirro pointed to me.  Isn't this a shameless trick?

Even, if I bring MY STATISTICS here, like you asked me, it would not have any value. Don't you understand this elementary fact?

The statistics should be FROM ANYONE ELSE,  who REPEATED my test  and got positive or negative results regarding my statements.  I gave all the details:"How to do this test?"

Such test done by anyone else would be much more interesting and valuable than any barking  around instead.
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themeandvariation
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 04:56:12 PM »

Yes, by all means, we should be conducting this scientific experiment… But not only on this piece, and not only about tempo markings (i.e. dynamics, pedaling, how fast the trill should go, the volume of counter lines,  period instrument or not, and Most Definitely  the degree to which one employs 'asynchonization' …) but all of our current  repertoire, even if the piece is only 1'50" long, gonorrhea notwithstanding…  
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2017, 05:12:43 PM »

I started a thread about this very issue of whether composers are always right about their own music (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=64342.0).

Personally I think you want to be careful about being too absolute when it comes to music. "Schumann's original tempo" may be a better way to describe what you are going for (and likely to get a lot less backlash Wink) rather than "correct tempo".

Probably, you know about the modern situation with "author rights". Any composer of our days can take you to court and charge you with huge penalties, if you used his name but did not play exactly what he really wrote.


Is it not a villainy to dishonor the name of a genius with one's miserable interpretations and attribute one's stupidity to a genius?


Why do we apply double standards to contemporary even worthless composers and great composers of the past? Because Mozart and Bach can not hire a lawyer? Is not this a disgrace?
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 05:22:02 PM »

Yes, by all means, we should be conducting this scientific experiment… But not only on this piece, and not only about tempo markings, but all of our current  repertoire, even if the piece is only 1"50' long, gonorrhea notwithstanding… 


I fully support your development of my idea of ​​checking our performance on random people.

We play our concerts concerts just for casual people and THEIR but not members of the forum the opinion determines the success or failure of our concert activity.
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tenk
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 08:18:10 PM »

Probably, you have never heard the way science works. I'll explain this to you:

1. You discover some amazing effect let say in Chemistry. You publish your results and the EXACT WAY you got this effect.
2. Other scientists around the globe follow your way and confirm the same result.
3. You receive a Nobel Prize.

Obviously, you don't understand it either.

You show up here, make a claim, insist you're correct, then charge other people to go out and prove it for you. You want pitch_perfect go to out and conduct a poll for tempo preference, and you have not done so.

Quote
The statistics should be FROM ANYONE ELSE,  who REPEATED my test  and got positive or negative results regarding my statements.  I gave all the details:"How to do this test?"

What test exactly?? You claim everyone, including some of the greatest pianists to have lived, is playing it wrong, and only you are correct. You haven't tested (or proven) sh!t.

Of course, I shouldn't expect anything less from a thread titled The only recording in the world of Schumann's "Traumerei" at the correct tempo. Pretty much anything posted to these forums claiming to be the "only (whatever) in the world" or "best (whatever) in the world" is usually just some self-aggrandizing pompous windbag. I'll add this OP to the tally.
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tenk
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »

Probably, you know about the modern situation with "author rights". Any composer of our days can take you to court and charge you with huge penalties, if you used his name but did not play exactly what he really wrote.

Uhhhh no? Unless you want to start citing some laws/examples, this is a pretty ridiculous claim.
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themeandvariation
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2017, 08:46:45 PM »

Seems like this test is about a kind of consensual validation - from your listeners… but isn't this also the very thing you are railing against?
And how does consensual validation fit into the idea of one's honest conviction (though disciplined study combined with one's artistic expressivity)?  Perhaps the masses trump that?
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2017, 08:57:18 PM »

Seems like this test is about a kind of consensual validation - from your listeners… but isn't this also the very thing you are railing against?


Exactly the point I was about to make. If this performance is at the "correct tempo", that is an absolute, objective observation - not a matter of interpretation - thus issues of taste aka "which version do you prefer?" are subjective and irrelevant.

To me, if we accept that this performance is at the given metronome marking, what is really of interest is "why are all (other) recordings at a much lower tempo?"
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mjames
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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 09:01:09 PM »

who cares man it's just tempo markings...
all these essays on pointless stuff lol
Just do whatever you feel like doing, music ain't math
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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2017, 09:09:10 PM »

i've only caught the last couple or so replies, interesting there is so much debate, either a score calls for a tempo or not, and either a performer adheres to it, or doesn't, seems pretty cut and dry (and  as ronde says, what is interesting then is why there is a tradition of not adhering to said tempo)

but it's Shumann, so the music is awful anyways, so we're debating if a crappy piece is crappy correctly or crappy incorrectly?

I think there is some debate about the Beethoven Moonlight sonata too wasn't there some information that a score/revision or draft called for it to be must fast in first movement than most play it? Maybe i'm imagining that though.
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themeandvariation
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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2017, 09:17:16 PM »

Yes, Visitor.. I mean it (moonlight 1st mov't) Is indicated:Cut Time
And not to overlook that the pedal is to be kept down the whole way…(no lifts)
Smiley

Literature is rife with examples

(ps…for me, the beautiful inner voicing in certain spots (Traumerei) is mostly lost at this speed)
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klavieronin
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2017, 10:55:24 PM »

Probably, you know about the modern situation with "author rights". Any composer of our days can take you to court and charge you with huge penalties, if you used his name but did not play exactly what he really wrote.

Is it not a villainy to dishonor the name of a genius with one's miserable interpretations and attribute one's stupidity to a genius?

Why do we apply double standards to contemporary even worthless composers and great composers of the past? Because Mozart and Bach can not hire a lawyer? Is not this a disgrace?

 Shocked Yikes! Calm down dude. I know you're getting a lot of flak over this thread but I think you're getting worked up for nothing. So what, people disagree with you? That's okay. No need to take it personally. That's just what happens on the internet. Don't give it too much thought.

Also, I really think you are confused about the "author rights" issue. It's not that you aren't allowed to play someone else's work differently while using their name. In fact the law specifically allows for variations, parody, satire, and the like. What you aren't allowed to do is use someone else's work without giving the author credit, which is almost exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2017, 02:55:12 AM »

If you play with some rubato there's no danger in bringing small parts to a faster tempo but only parts. If you brutally apply it to the entire score you produce something rather ugly imho. I think many classical pianists are petrified to make artistic choices that are not precisely written in the score and think reciting word for word every written detail is the appropriate choice only, that is a shame. We are artists who must produce intelligent and creative responses based upon our knowledge of the language of music and how particular composers sounded.

There is nothing wrong at all playing this piece slower and milking the beautiful and memorable melodic lines for all that you possibly can. Just use your ears and ask yourself what moves you more emotionally, what reminds you of a dream? Yes a subjective question but certainly more people will consider a dream slower, floating, lingering rather than a brisk affair.
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2017, 07:40:34 AM »

Obviously, you don't understand it either.

You show up here, make a claim, insist you're correct, then charge other people to go out and prove it for you. You want pitch_perfect go to out and conduct a poll for tempo preference, and you have not done so.

Don't you think that the world's audience at least HAS RIGHT to know: "How Traumerei sounds in Schumann's authentic tempo?" Why you and the rest like you are fighting against the idea itself to give a CHOICE to our listeners?

Let them to choose: which tempo do they prefer? But do not suppress alternative ideas.

Why this discussion looks like a well organized crowd in  totalitarian state against a single dissident?

Maybe, because this crowd simply CAN NOT play this song at composers tempo?
 
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2017, 08:25:46 AM »

...,,,,

Why this discussion looks like a well organized crowd in  totalitarian state against a single dissident?

Maybe, because this crowd simply CAN NOT play this song at composers tempo?
 


 Quite frankly, I've stayed out of this discussion even  though the original post was full of arrogance.  But to suggest that others on this forum  cannot play this at 100 MM is truly outrageous.   

Couple that with the inaccurate legal statement that composers have the right to sue if the musician does not play identical  to the score, and now a new thread that innacurately states that Clementi beat Mozart AND a reversal in the position that the score  should never be altered???   The OP has lost, for me, any shred of credibility.
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mjames
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2017, 08:38:05 AM »

too difficult, it's traumerei LMAO

Podesta #2 folks
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2017, 08:43:45 AM »

too difficult, it's traumerei LMAO

Podesta #2 folks


 Maybe this could be an addendum to podesta's video 
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keypeg
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2017, 12:26:44 PM »

This is off topic.  Starting with this: A person wants to present an idea that may be interesting.  The idea may be that a piece by Schumann has been played one way, but perhaps it ought to be played another, because of the tempo marking.  The idea may be that block chords ought to be rolled, for historical reasons.  I'm interested in exploring ideas, and would be interested in these, therefore.  If the subject line tells me what it's about, I'll go there --- I will also be reading in the context of knowing there are these new ideas.

We get to the subject line.  There is a journalistic device to get people to read an article by using an attention-grabbing title.  In fact, I tend to avoid commercial journalist material, magazines and such, because I dislike such things.  The article is rarely about what the title says.  I also don't like my emotions manipulated.  In this respect, there is a trend at times in forums to use this "journalistic approach" and for me it is an immediate turn-off.

Thus, "the only recording in the world" is that kind of attention grabbing title.  Such a title makes me want to skip the topic and not even read.  The actual topic has to do with whether Träumerei should be played at the metronome speed.  the topic title is about whether somebody's playing is the only correct one: the attention goes to that person's preeminence.  If I go by the title, I found two other people who play it at that faster tempo, and explain (the same) reason.  Therefore it is not "the only recording in the world" etc.  But the topic isn't about "only recording" - it's about whether the MM= should preside?  So why create this kind of turn-off, which gives the feel of bragging, instead of an invitation for exploring an idea.

The same thing for "Your piano teacher taught you wrong", which is about playing block chords in a non-block way. The title doesn't say that.  The title attacks my piano teacher - whose teaching the author can't possibly know.  If I were immature and angry at a former teacher, perhaps that would induce me to watch the video (also missing its point).  As it is, I had to first overcome my aversion to the title (just as with "the only recording"), and continue to bat away the negative feelings against the "provocative title".  What I did with it was to bounce this idea off my piano teacher  Wink .... who incidentally has never taught me in the way that was proposed.  But then; is the topic one's piano teacher; or is the topic how block chords can be played?  Similarly, is the topic about the unique superiority of the writer's playing of Träumerei, or is the topic about tempo?

End of off topic thoughts.
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outin
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2017, 12:37:03 PM »


but it's Shumann, so the music is awful anyways, so we're debating if a crappy piece is crappy correctly or crappy incorrectly?

I think there is some debate about the Beethoven Moonlight sonata too wasn't there some information that a score/revision or draft called for it to be must fast in first movement than most play it? Maybe i'm imagining that though.

There is. But since that piece is crappy too don't bother to look further into it...
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2017, 12:47:48 PM »

There is. But since that piece is crappy too don't bother to look further into it...
Haha agreed. No time for crappy!!
 Grin
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2017, 06:54:31 PM »

too difficult, it's traumerei LMAO

Podesta #2 folks
Wrong, podesta is actually faulty_damper #2, this is faulty_damper #3.
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2017, 05:07:38 AM »

There is. But since that piece is crappy too don't bother to look further into it...

Outin be like, "Schumann?...



..EW!"
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2017, 09:39:32 AM »




 I found two other people who play it at that faster tempo, and explain (the same) reason.  

I have heard about the other people who play at Schumann's Tempo but never had a chance to listen to their recordings.

Could you help me, please, to find these recordings?

Thanks for highly professional comments! 
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2017, 09:45:39 AM »


 to suggest that others on this forum  cannot play this at 100 MM is truly outrageous.   



Please, say honestly: did you try to play Traumerei  at Tempo=100?  Could you do it?

If you can, why didn't you post YOUR version of performance instead of many words?
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2017, 12:03:29 PM »

We have a very simple choice:

1. to be the second idiot after Schumann, who allegedly did not know difference between Quarter Note (crochet) and Eighth Note (quiver)

or

2. to be in a crowd of idiots, who are "smart enough" to correct genius and substitute great music with their own crap proudly called "interpretation".

My choice is to be with Schumann.



That is all very well, but metronome markings really aren't set in stone.

I quote from the prefatory notes to an admittedly dated (Tovey) edition of the Hammerklavier:

"Beethoven's tempo (minim=138) is impossible [...] Not until he revised his original metronome marks for the Ninth Symphony did Beethoven discover the deceptiveness of Maelzel's new invention [...] In recent times Reger, after carefully metronomising all his works, found it necessary to add in every case the caveat that these marks are to be regarded merely as setting the extreme permissible limit of speed; and in performance under his own direction he never approached within 2/3 of the tempo so indicated."


[...]

to suggest that others on this forum  cannot play this at 100 MM is truly outrageous.   


Yes, it is more than a little silly.
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themeandvariation
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2017, 02:54:22 PM »

.
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2017, 09:18:27 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ktiKOITBw

Really cute to call it a "song", first place. Following that lead, that's the most bizzare rendition of this piece I ever heard in terms of style, concept, phrasing, lack of harmonic support, constant sticking out chords in the L.H., weird dynamic "bubbles" with numerous accents in the middle of the phrases, which do not make any sense...

Not sure if Schumann meant in this full of nostalgic mood dreamy piece  all that phantasmagoria... but that might be me...
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vladimirdounin
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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2017, 10:30:18 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ktiKOITBw

Really cute to call it a "song", first place. Following that lead, that's the most bizzare rendition of this piece I ever heard in terms of style, concept, phrasing, lack of harmonic support, constant sticking out chords in the L.H., weird dynamic "bubbles" with numerous accents in the middle of the phrases, which do not make any sense...

Not sure if Schumann meant in this full of nostalgic mood dreamy piece  all that phantasmagoria... but that might be me...


You probably know that world famous scientists read in the past and read today the same letters of the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Celts etc.  in absolutely different ways, sometimes with a mutually exclusive meaning. Don't you think that in the music the same situation?
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« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2017, 10:24:40 PM »

Disclaimer: I havent heard much of Traumerei before or even now, checked the video by the OP or anything.

But in general I would say that this seems to be overanalyzing the piece. There might be thing here where some people care more about the tempo than Schumann himself would do.

I think a composer that would care most about that tempo his pieces would be played and less at what emotions being communicated is a strange composer. I dont think Schumann would be one of those composers.

I would love if Glenn Gould could come here and say what he sometimes said about composers: "Not all composers understand their own pieces".

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« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2017, 11:20:32 AM »

Disclaimer: I havent heard much of Traumerei before or even now, checked the video by the OP or anything.

But in general I would say that this seems to be overanalyzing the piece. There might be thing here where some people care more about the tempo than Schumann himself would do.

I think a composer that would care most about that tempo his pieces would be played and less at what emotions being communicated is a strange composer. I dont think Schumann would be one of those composers.

I would love if Glenn Gould could come here and say what he sometimes said about composers: "Not all composers understand their own pieces".





 
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Glenn Gould- Turkish March
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Zarathustra
Published on Feb 9, 2012
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Glenn Gould plays Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca
Category
Music
License
Standard YouTube License
Music
"Piano Sonata No. 11 in A Major, K. 331: III. (Rondo) Alla Turca. Allegretto" by Glenn Gould ()
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 Vladimir Dounin
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dominoes37
dominoes37
1 year ago
We all heard this piece so many times and yet this version seems so new and fresh!
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View all 13 replies
 Isia Sooth
Isia Sooth
1 year ago
Who cares about the score? His interpretation is really beautiful. Love you Glenn!
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89



View all 7 replies
 leo
leo
1 year ago (edited)
Lots of discussion in the comments about Gould's intention when choosing this tempo. Just to make it clear, he talks about it in an interview  broadcasted on BBC, if you buy it on amazon, it's dvd5, second part.

To sum up :
He hated the turkish march, never played it as a kid just because it was overplayed.
He wanted the public to be shocked for the sake of it.
He still thinks that it sounds good this way, but not better than with the usual tempo.
He wants everything to sounds like Bach. (Hence a very loud left hand, but this is not specific to this piece)

Those are Gould's words, no need to speculate.
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178



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 Gary Schmidt
Gary Schmidt
2 years ago
This is delightful. Compare this to Lang Lang. Gould is making music. Full of charm and original ideas. Lang Lang is showing off to the audience, so fast you can't even hear the music. Just my humble opinion lol.
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 Mau365PP
Mau365PP
11 months ago
who cares what is "correct" if it sounds good and you like it. Of course it is not Mozart, it is Glenn Gould who you are hearing. If you dont like it you are free to go and listen to someone that plays it "correctly"
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5



JaseBach
JaseBach
2 years ago
I think most of the commentators agree that Mr Gould wanted us to hear the music anew, but what was new and had been overlooked by musicologists and pianists alike?  The clue, I think, lies in the first four notes of the movement, which was played detached, distinct and staccato-like.  He wanted us to move away from the idea that these four notes are just an ornament.  In fact, these four notes form a motif repeated and transformed many times; and the F sharp minor section, often called an episode, is in fact an upside image of these notes.  You can hear the connection in Gould's performance but not in other faster versions.Mozart is well known to write deceptively simple music that can be appreciated on multiple levels.  Lang Lang's interpretation is pure and innocent joy.  Someone noted that Glenn Gould made it sound like poor Turks marching home after losing a battle.  Actually, the Turkish part is the triumphant parts in A major.  Amazingly, Mozart started the movement softly (p), nervously in the minor key and ended with a Turkish triumphal march in A major.  Mozart clearly wanted this contrast, which is as stunning a reversal as the night-to-day and the evil-to-good transformation in the Magic Flute.  Just as Zarathustra (Sorastro) turned out to be the good guy, the Turks beat the infidels in this movement.Gould's was undoubtedly a post-modern reading, capturing the drama, psychology and depth of the music like no other.
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76



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 Sérgio Azevedo
Sérgio Azevedo
1 year ago (edited)
This should be the correct tempo, it's a March, not a run (except if the soldiers are running afar from the ennemy...), everyone uses this march to show how they can play fast, Gould, even if he does not like it, plays it much better than everyone else! Only to show them how it's done Smiley
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76



View all 13 replies
 Kanuckbrewer
Kanuckbrewer
1 year ago
Gould could make Mozart sound like Bach
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76



View all 7 replies
 Julia Pikalova
Julia Pikalova
3 years ago
So Gould Smiley
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71



View all 2 replies
 Eren Gocuk
Eren Gocuk
1 year ago
his left hand staccato chords give the impression of marching army.
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50



View all 3 replies
 bersa888
bersa888
2 years ago
The line between masterful insight and the grotesque is rather visible here.
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38



View all 7 replies
 Ted Oud
Ted Oud
2 years ago
I like it because it is different than what I expected.  I don't think Gould was particularly concerned whether others liked it or not.  It was his interpretation at the moment he played it.  Nothing more and nothing less.
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 Jim Hendricks
Jim Hendricks
1 year ago
Only Gould could make this sound great at this tempo and with this type of articulation.
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25



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 Steve Chen
Steve Chen
2 years ago
bach is in tha house
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 Ahmed Nadeem
Ahmed Nadeem
1 year ago
Not everyone can slow down the tempo and still make sound as good the original tempo
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 ArtisticTrance
ArtisticTrance
1 year ago
best interpretation ever
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17



Mano Javier
Mano Javier
1 year ago
I watch Lang Lang's version and it is pompously rushed. Glenn's sounds really a march.
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View all 6 replies
 Juantxo Vega
Juantxo Vega
1 year ago
Just listen to it as it was the first time, don´t compare with any other version.. Them it´s absolutely beautifull.
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17



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 Li Min
Li Min
3 years ago
The notes are so clean, speed is perfect and I can hear voices of someone singing... hahaha love it
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12



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 lama doo
lama doo
3 years ago
what a cheeky performance. well done !
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9



View reply
 Matteo Maffeis
Matteo Maffeis
2 years ago
settings -> speed -> pick your favourite
1.25 and 1.5 work well if it's too slow for your tastes
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10



View all 4 replies
 Sten Johansen
Sten Johansen
1 year ago (edited)
Now THAT is a performance worthy of Mozart.. It seems all other pianists treat it like an ornamental toy a court jester would juggle. (example: Lang Lang). Gould makes it into a work of Art and it thrilled me to hear it taken seriously. Kudos to Gould!
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9



TheLordIsMyStrength
TheLordIsMyStrength
11 months ago
So slow, it almost sounds like he is playing it backwards.
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8



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 Agostino Petrillo
Agostino Petrillo
2 years ago
fantasticamente morboso. un interprete non un esecutore.
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9



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 Jörgen Eriksson
Jörgen Eriksson
1 year ago
Gould's version is a intellectual statement more than an musical.
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8



karlakor
karlakor
3 years ago
I think Glenn Gould liked to shock his listeners, and this performance is a good example.  It is fussy and overly concerned with details, and in no way reflects the spirit of a march.  This performance is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.  Dreadful.
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 Shannon M
Shannon M
3 years ago
He's obviously mocking Mozart here.
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7



Phil Kite
Phil Kite
3 years ago
I don't understand this guy.. He plays moonlight sonata (which is meant to be slow) really fast and this song (which is usually much faster) too slow...
Its like he does it just to piss people off. Or get them to talk about him.
This is definitely the LAST Glenn Gould clip I ever watch.
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View all 12 replies
 D Sargent
D Sargent
2 years ago
This is played about 90 bpm (Andante). It's marked Allegretto (120-130 bpm). I think the most important thing a performer does is pick the right tempo. Someone below said Horowitz played it slow too. I listened to Horowitz. He played at about 120 bpm, which is, not surprisingly, MARCH tempo (Horowitz's version is very musical). I think this is a ridiculous interpretation of one of my favorite pieces of music. Glenn Gould was nuts. I don't even like the way he played Bach. The least musical pianist I've ever heard (apart from students or amateurs).
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 Magical Entertainer Vincent!
Magical Entertainer Vincent!
3 years ago
Great performance of one of my favourite pieces. Slower tempo allows the expressive nature of each note ring out more.  I like the original interpretation of this work. Great job. Bravo. I wish you were still here.
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5



PikaPianist
PikaPianist
3 years ago
For some odd reason, I really enjoyed this super slow version.
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2



BloggerMusicMan
BloggerMusicMan
3 years ago
I really like this version. It's more joyful than the standard versions you hear of this song. It has a "step" to it.
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4



Keith Jean
Keith Jean
2 years ago
I think hes' playing it how a military band would perform it, stiffly and precise, but also he's having a bit of a joke at the same time, hes exaggerating. I imagine he would find this piece both boring and interesting. I hear some parts he takes more seriously, the right hand in the middle section for example.
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3



View all 2 replies
 Wing Low
Wing Low
4 months ago
I like it.  I like the left hand.  I like the speed.  Why play this piece like everybody else.
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5



aghaanantyab
aghaanantyab
6 months ago
play it with the speed 1.5, it would be better
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2



Ivan Alexeev
Ivan Alexeev
4 years ago
The Rondo is marked 'Allegretto'. I think Gould is playing right. 
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10



View all 3 replies
 pietro aligi Schiavi
pietro aligi Schiavi
2 years ago
More than a march, it sounds like a sad requiem, teutonic sound, but genial!!!!
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3



View all 2 replies
 Fabrizio Viti
Fabrizio Viti
1 year ago
Ha dei tempi di esecuzione sublimi, ho ascoltato prima lo stesso brano suonato da Lang Lang...una porcheria !
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3



View all 3 replies
 Louis Emery
Louis Emery
2 years ago
Gould, thank you for making the notes distinguishable. I had a hunch that you would have such a version.
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3



John H
John H
1 year ago
The key to enjoying Glenn Gould is to approach his music with no expectation as to how it should sound, or how the composer would have wanted it to sound. If you accept that Gould danced on the line between interpretation and outright recomposition his whole career, and try to hear his work for what it is in and of itself, you can get into Gould's world in a big way and become a true fan.
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3



View all 3 replies
 E.j.N.t
E.j.N.t
6 months ago
Best version i've ever heard!!!
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3


Glenn Gould- Turkish March



lupash
6 months ago
Gould performed almost everything as if it was: a) always staccato; b) written by Bach; c) both.
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1



TheLordIsMyStrength
TheLordIsMyStrength
11 months ago


Seriously, if i played this on my old school record player (don't know what it's called, that Vinyl thing), i would seriously check if there was something wrong with the motor.
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3






D Sargent
2 years ago
This is played about 90 bpm (Andante). It's marked Allegretto (120-130 bpm). I think the most important thing a performer does is pick the right tempo. Someone below said Horowitz played it slow too. I listened to Horowitz. He played at about 120 bpm, which is, not surprisingly, MARCH tempo (Horowitz's version is very musical). I think this is a ridiculous interpretation of one of my favorite pieces of music. Glenn Gould was nuts. I don't even like the way he played Bach. The least musical pianist I've ever heard (apart from students or amateurs).
Read more
REPLY




Phil Kite
3 years ago
I don't understand this guy.. He plays moonlight sonata (which is meant to be slow) really fast and this song (which is usually much faster) too slow...
Its like he does it just to piss people off. Or get them to talk about him.
This is definitely the LAST Glenn Gould clip I ever watch.
REPLY



Shannon M
3 years ago
He's obviously mocking Mozart here.


Mau365PP
11 months ago
who cares what is "correct" if it sounds good and you like it. Of course it is not Mozart, it is Glenn Gould who you are hearing. If you don't like it you are free to go and listen to someone that plays it "correctly"


Kanuckbrewer
1 year ago
Gould could make Mozart sound like Bach


bersa888
2 years ago
The line between masterful insight and the grotesque is rather visible here.


TheLordIsMyStrength
11 months ago
So slow, it almost sounds like he is playing it backwards.
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torandrekongelf
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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2017, 12:29:11 PM »

That was a very long post. And I dont actually see the point of it by posting comments of people disagreeing with Goulds choice of tempo.

Youtube comment section is not a really great source of knowledge either.

One even wrote that tempo markings as "Allegretto and Andante" had a fixed bpm to them. They dont.

And someone wrote that 1st movement of Moonlight Sonata is to be a slow movement. When Beethoven clearly wrote it in Alla Breve.

In other words, I dont care much what youtube comment section is telling me.
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