1970's Rönisch upright piano - it's a good idea?

[mike71]

Hello all, from a log pause, I have rejoined this forum.

Long story short, while talking to a musician he sad to me that he has an old upright Rönisch Piano, made in the 1970s in the DDR, that is not used because he has now a Yamaha Grand Piano.
The last tuning of the piano was three years ago. The price he want to sell to me is about 300 E that is the dame money I have to pay to move and retune it.

I was saving some money to buy a stage piano with a 3-pedal unit, like a Yamaha CP40 or YP255 or the Roland RD800 or RD300 or even some of the new Casio.

The advantage of a stage piano is that is lighter, smaller, doesn't go out of tune and is new with warranty, not to mention to use the MIDI I/O to record and replay to wind errors or have the metronome click, bassline sequencing and so on...

An acoustic upright on the other hand is an acoustic with a feel that is the "right" one.

BUT. It's an old piano and I don't know if is worth the expense and the yearly tuning expense. I don't want to get a big of useless Cold-War era black furniture.
I haven't actually seen the piano, so what I have to look or hear  about it to find it's a good or bad choice?   
What are the tell-tale signs that it's a "lemon" to avoid.

I'll put it in my country house that I use in the weekends, because I live in an attic with some space and neighbours problems, so I still have to to upgrade some day the stage piano I have in the attic and I use with headphones.

[indianajo]

The price makes it worth viewing and testing out. Whether it is a good or bad piano remains to be determined. I saw a superior fifties Acrosonic console go for $100 before Christmas, the market is that thin for wood pianos.  OTOH the electronic toys don't have the real sound or feel of a piano. Electronic piano playing is  sort of like attempting to have a social life through a cell phone.  Odd brands are often junk and sometimes superior, the name isn't everything.  Kurtzmann  Grinell Bros of Detroit and Willis are three orphan brand pianos I have been pleased to play.
The "expense" of tuning is about $80 in the beginning and after that nothing. I tune my own pianos, also various ones I play in churches around. The highs need a lot more frequent adjustment than the bass notes.  A good tuning wrench is about $50, a couple of tuning forks are about $16 each.  Because the cycle of fifths has some flatting required, I use a C tuning fork and am going to purchase a F# or G# one.  Takes about 2 hours for a really ignored piano. I pluck the string with a nail while holding down the keys with rolls of coins. Using the hammers with damping strip is so fiddly.  Last time the piano I tuned in December was adjusted was apparently 1966, to go by the marking inside.  A second pass will be required this month or next because the pitch rise was so radical.
There were some decent instruments made in the DDR; I played a "Miraphone" bassoon in the sixties from there.  Check this one for decent tone, seven octaves. The most respected brand sold new these days fails this test IMHO. Test for tone & volume match of 1 string, 2 string, 3 string notes.  Sign of quality voicing. Test for quick note repetition with two hands, my Sohmer will do 4 notes per beat at ~mm 132.  Test that touch is even at ppp, that no notes dropout before others.  Test dampers stop the notes.  One or two not damping is easily adjusted with pliers if the felt is there. All notes not damping or never letting off is usually a damaged pedal or misplaced pushrod, common problems due to moving damage and easily  repaired if the rod is in the bottom.  
Look for scooped out hammer felts in the middle, too many hours. Look for wiggly hammer pivots, again sign of high hours. These are rare on home use pianos.  Look for mouse or water damage to felt.  Look for obvious sound board or frame cracks. Listen for buzzing at fff.   Look for missing or spliced strings. (The Sohmer has a spliced bass string, worth $900 off when it was new and still working fine after 36 years).   Listen before tuning for one note much flatter than others, often a sign of a loose pin or socket.  Listen with the top up and down. If much louder top up, the sound board and kick board are too thick or the wrong wood.  Thick parts will also kill the highs on the high notes.  Look for plys in the pin block. I find solid maple ones require less frequent tuning.  
Have fun shopping.

[hfmadopter]

 I use a C tuning fork and am going to purchase a F# or G# one.  

Not to butt into your process but why don't you get a relatively inexpensive electronic tuner vs individual forks. I use a Korg tuner, I think it cost me $40 and I can set my whole mid range temperament with that and actually an octave above and below if I want to. Plus it sets your frequency and you can see cents of initial tune. It's great when you get stuck on a note too, I've been stuck a few times on which part of a fifth or third was off, hearing it but not isolating it. Don't rely on it for every note but a great aid for temperament setting.

Incidentally, the OP said that digital pianos are always in tune. I would suggest they are always in the same tune but not necessarily good tune and that is part of what generates their sterile sound. In pianoteq software I change that output though and some digital pianos now come with lab software on board too.

Edit: Since I bought my Ca40 tuner a few years ago I see that two things have happened. Both, that tuner is now $18 at Amazon and they now also have added a tuner that covers 8 octaves. I'm happy with mine though, it gives me about three octaves of faithful tuning , though I do the outer reaches and my unisons by ear anyway ( the tuners don't read beats, you have to gain that capability on your own or else learn to associate the tuners reading to the beats you hear, I'd rather hear them personally).

[hfmadopter]

I can't tell you from sitting here in my living room if that old upright is worth owning or not. To me not many are anyway but don't judge by me LOL ! So I will just let this part default to our friend's comments, indianajo, he has a certain admiration for old uprights that I mostly don't share and is much more up beat about them. To me, trying to find a good old upright that someone has sitting around the house is like going car shopping in the back yards of inner city neighborhoods. Some people love that stuff but I want a car that is not mouse infested and known to work sometime in the last week or so.

As to a Stage piano and of the ones you mention, the RD800 is the clear winner to me. The keys of that particular RD in my playing of stage pianos was most like my grand piano. What will beat that, if you can find a deal on one, is a Kawai MP11. As to sound and tuning of digital pianos, I highly recommend playing them in midi output into Pianoteq Standard software. You can tweak up some great Steinway , Bluthner and C Bechstein sounds and key attacks etc. through that software by adding on instrument packs. You probably could get started on that with your existing keyboard and bring some new life from it as well.

[chrisbutch]

I don't know about Ronisch from that period, but earlier in the century the firm made some really superb pianos, right up there with Bosendorefer and Steinway in quality. For that reason alone it would at least be worth looking at.

[mike71]

To me, trying to find a good old upright that someone has sitting around the house is like going car shopping in the back yards of inner city neighborhoods. Some people love that stuff but I want a car that is not mouse infested and known to work sometime in the last week or so.

Wrom what I have seen the market of old uprights has really low prices, especially because the market is flloded by newer upright that were leased and "foreclosed" (Maybe the term is not correc). A loto of piano are sold with a leasing contract so one pays like 100 € for four years. At the end of the lease period one could either make the final payment, covering the unpaid capital part or give back the used piano.

By the way I could do the same with the RD800, with a shorter lease time, of course.

One of the dealer I asked a quote for transport and tuning said that she could give ma a Yamaha U2 five years old for 2800 € delivered and tuned and 2 year warranty on site. And for a lesser known brand proposed one at 1500 €.

As to a Stage piano and of the ones you mention, the RD800 is the clear winner to me. The keys of that particular RD in my playing of stage pianos was most like my grand piano. What will beat that, if you can find a deal on one, is a Kawai MP11.

The RD800 is cool, unfortunately it's a bit pricey. Has great piano sounds but the other sounds are really good. Neveve had the opportunity to tri the MP11, because the Kawai dealer here didn't have one to show.

Anyway I still have to see and photograph it. I'll definitively ask a technician to check if it's all ok before moving and see if I have the feeling with it.

[hfmadopter]

Wrom what I have seen the market of old uprights has really low prices, especially because the market is flloded by newer upright that were leased and "foreclosed" (Maybe the term is not correc). A loto of piano are sold with a leasing contract so one pays like 100 € for four years. At the end of the lease period one could either make the final payment, covering the unpaid capital part or give back the used piano.

By the way I could do the same with the RD800, with a shorter lease time, of course.

One of the dealer I asked a quote for transport and tuning said that she could give ma a Yamaha U2 five years old for 2800 € delivered and tuned and 2 year warranty on site. And for a lesser known brand proposed one at 1500 €.

The RD800 is cool, unfortunately it's a bit pricey. Has great piano sounds but the other sounds are really good. Neveve had the opportunity to tri the MP11, because the Kawai dealer here didn't have one to show.

Anyway I still have to see and photograph it. I'll definitively ask a technician to check if it's all ok before moving and see if I have the feeling with it.

One way or another something will work out for you , exciting !

[mike71]

A small update: to throw in some confusion, it's possible that I can have access for few hours a month to a grand piano, that is used in a restaurant near my house.

The big problem is anyway: it's better a stage piano with headphones and practice every time on a digital with a good keyboard with the possibility to use like 2 hour a month a grand, or stay with the current old digital piano and having an upright that maybe I could use in the weekends only and anyway not in the late evening?

And worst of all I am not sure if it is a good deal...

[timothy42b]

Not to butt into your process but why don't you get a relatively inexpensive electronic tuner vs individual forks.

Even better, download the evaluation copy of Tunelab.  It measures and adjusts for inharmonicity of your individual piano. 

I have electronic tuners of course, for band instruments, but they tune to ET (or some other selected temperament) regardless of the scale of your piano, and you don't want that. 

[hfmadopter]

Even better, download the evaluation copy of Tunelab.  It measures and adjusts for inharmonicity of your individual piano. 

I have electronic tuners of course, for band instruments, but they tune to ET (or some other selected temperament) regardless of the scale of your piano, and you don't want that. 

Good one Tim, I keep forgetting about tunelab, I guess because I have the tuner and just use that and my ears to hear beats or to hear no beats as needed.

[timothy42b]

Good one Tim, I keep forgetting about tunelab, I guess because I have the tuner and just use that and my ears to hear beats or to hear no beats as needed.

Remember that you need beats and they should be faster as you go up contiguous major thirds. 

[hfmadopter]

Remember that you need beats and they should be faster as you go up contiguous major thirds. 

What temperament do you tune in Tim ?

[timothy42b]

What temperament do you tune in Tim ?

The Tunelab version of ET (although I see advantages to Bill Bremmer's EVBT3.) 

Anything but Reverse Well of course!

Now I'll tell a story about an intonation incident that happened to me last week. 

It's off topic of course, but so is anything about tuning.

I played alto recorder for the church's Christmas pageant, they always ask for something simple to help one of the children sing along.  I practiced a bit and got interested in playing along with some youtube videos. 

My recorders are Yamaha plastic in various sizes.  They are well made but all recorders have some intonation ideosyncrasies (couldn't spell that to save my life) that you just have to ignore.  On any scale there are notes that hurt my ears, but they're very close. 

Well, it turns out youtube videos vary in pitch.  One of them was a tiny bit flat to the recorder, so I pulled out the head joint just enough to match it.  Disaster.  It tuned the F, and threw out every other pitch so that I could no longer tolerate a scale in any key. 

Why that happens i don't know.  I'm going back to trombone which I CAN play in tune.  With anything. 

[hfmadopter]

The Tunelab version of ET (although I see advantages to Bill Bremmer's EVBT3.) 

Anything but Reverse Well of course!

Now I'll tell a story about an intonation incident that happened to me last week. 

It's off topic of course, but so is anything about tuning.

I played alto recorder for the church's Christmas pageant, they always ask for something simple to help one of the children sing along.  I practiced a bit and got interested in playing along with some youtube videos. 

My recorders are Yamaha plastic in various sizes.  They are well made but all recorders have some intonation ideosyncrasies (couldn't spell that to save my life) that you just have to ignore.  On any scale there are notes that hurt my ears, but they're very close. 

Well, it turns out youtube videos vary in pitch.  One of them was a tiny bit flat to the recorder, so I pulled out the head joint just enough to match it.  Disaster.  It tuned the F, and threw out every other pitch so that I could no longer tolerate a scale in any key. 

Why that happens i don't know.  I'm going back to trombone which I CAN play in tune.  With anything. 

Hah,if there was a LIKE button here as in some forums, I'd LIKE your post ! Maybe this will do:  LIKE

[indianajo]

Mike71, I suggest you perform the tests and evaluation listed in post 2 before paying a tuner/tech $75 to check out the possible purchase.  There are many pianos for sale that are not worth the $75.  If you buy from a reputable dealer, you have spent many times the $75 in his markup to pay for his moving, storage, premises, taxes, and time. If you buy from an individual, you can often score a stellar 50's-60's-70's piano with low usage for a hundred or several hundred euros or dollars. 
As far as tuning programs or gadgets - the cellphone will be replaced due to obsolescence or weak battery in five years or less: requiring purchase of a new application.  An electronic tuning appliance, the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply will go off value in ten years, or if neglected in the bench, the battery will leak and destroy the battery clip.  The tuning forks will be just the same as today.  As, if I maintain the roof and avoid floods, will my 1941 Steinway piano be just the same. 

[mike71]

How it ended.

I've seen the piano.
It was in a car garage.
Strings were rusted, except some one that were clearly newer. The keys in the middle were wiggly and the felts were a lot grooved in the middle.
Was out of tune and some pins on the middle notes were different, some other looked like there was some kind of glue or wax.

I suppose that is a "lemon". Am I correct?

[timothy42b]

It sounds like it has had some amateur or DIY maintenance done, which is likely far worse than if it had not been maintained at all.

Used pianos are a glut on the market.  Most of them are junk but there is the occasional quality one out there.  I would advise not settling for less than a good one. 

There are a couple of books that can help you assess them, check your library or even buy.

Reblitz I think is one, if I'm remembering correctly, and maybe Larry Fine?  I have notes somewhere if I can find them. 

[hfmadopter]

How it ended.

I've seen the piano.
It was in a car garage.
Strings were rusted, except some one that were clearly newer. The keys in the middle were wiggly and the felts were a lot grooved in the middle.
Was out of tune and some pins on the middle notes were different, some other looked like there was some kind of glue or wax.

I suppose that is a "lemon". Am I correct?

It has loose tuning pins, the evidence is clear from your description. Stay away.

[indianajo]

scooped out felts in the middle was mentioned in my fourth paragraph.  High hours, don't bother calling in a tech. Walk away.   There are lots of low hours pianos out there, especially in north America, probably in Europe also.  Not in Asia. 
Rusted strings are not a problem, but water on the wood might be.
I wouldn't take a Yamaha console for free.  I don't like the sound.  How good are your ears?   Been shopping looking at the salesman's suit ? Nice suit, *****y sounding  piano, IMHO. The salesman with the "beautiful green eyes" to quote one elderly lady customer, has put one in every piano teacher's music room around here, and most of the churches.   The baby grands are nothing special, either.  The 9' ones sound okay.