Sibelius ultimate software

[georgey]

Just bought this (i.e.1 yr subscription) to create mp3 and pdf of music.  Wondering if anyone likes this software?

[klavieronin]

I started out using Sibelius many years ago and thought it was fine for my purposes. Then I swapped to Finale and although it had a steeper learning curve I preferred it because it felt more flexible. I just recently bought Dorico and although there are many features I want that haven't yet been implemented I think it is by far the best notation out of the three. It's much quicker to use and better organised and has a tone of great features that I always wished for in Finale. Another great thing about Dorico is that you can edit the midi performance without affecting the score.

[georgey]

I started out using Sibelius many years ago and thought it was fine for my purposes. Then I swapped to Finale and although it had a steeper learning curve I preferred it because it felt more flexible. I just recently bought Dorico and although there are many features I want that haven't yet been implemented I think it is by far the best notation out of the three. It's much quicker to use and better organised and has a tone of great features that I always wished for in Finale. Another great thing about Dorico is that you can edit the midi performance without affecting the score.

Thanks Klavieronin.  I'm still very grateful for the work you did with my prior fugue!  I'm just looking to do the same thing that you did for a new fugue that I hope to write.  I just installed the software and am planning to try it tomorrow.  I'm just looking to do simple piano sound and hoping the sound quality is good enough.  I heard Sibelius 7 solo piano sound on youtube earlier today and I thought it sounded good. Which software did you use for my fugue?  I will definitely try Dorico if I have problems with Sibelius.

[klavieronin]

I can't quite remember what I did for you but at that time I would have been using Finale as my notation software. If I made a recording for you, the piano sound almost certainly would have been Pianoteq and I would have produced it in a DAW, not a notation program.

[georgey]

Just started working with Sibelius today.  Watched first 8 minutes of a getting started video (1 of 6 videos for newcomers).  Then got impatient and decided to try to figure myself.  I am able to put in 3 voices for the 3 voice fugue, but I keep needing to flip stem directions.  And then it keeps adding rests as if I wrote a 4 voice fugue. I keep deleting the rests and it keeps adding them back in.  Other than that it's going good. 

Lesson learned:  I will watch all of the 6 videos so I know what I'm doing before I do anymore work.

[j_tour]

Just started working with Sibelius today.  Watched first 8 minutes of a getting started video (1 of 6 videos for newcomers).  Then got impatient and decided to try to figure myself.  I am able to put in 3 voices for the 3 voice fugue, but I keep needing to flip stem directions.  And then it keeps adding rests as if I wrote a 4 voice fugue. I keep deleting the rests and it keeps adding them back in.  Other than that it's going good. 

Lesson learned:  I will watch all of the 6 videos so I know what I'm doing before I do anymore work.

Dammit. 

I was looking for a reason to buy a new engraving program, but it's this same stuff. 

Somebody please explain to me why these top-shelf bits of software don't assume we know what we're doing when we place notes with the stems and durations we want?

Yes, I know all about TeX things like LilyPond, but, seriously, that's just not good.  Takes too long.

What do people like Angelo Badalamenti use? 

Whatever it is, I'm just sticking to technical pencils w 2mm lead and staff paper.

ETA Yes, it is about the equivalent of the old Microsoft "Clippy" the "helpful" "assistant."  Cubase SX, which I used as a DAW frontend a long time ago, was about the only thing that would do what I wanted it to, and typesetting is not it's main function.  IIRC it worked fine. 

[klavieronin]

I'll say it again, anyone looking for a notation program should seriously consider Dorico. The pro version is quite expensive but there is a light version that is very reasonably priced. I had been using Finale for ~10 years and only just recently switched to Dorico, but already I'm working much faster and with less frustration than I ever did with Finale.

[georgey]

Haha!    I attached pdf of my fugue - 95 measures - 3:15 long at 120 BPM. 

I ended up not watching any of the instruction videos so I can't complain about the few problems I had. Still need to add expression marks, etc.

Then all I need do now is create my MP3.  I can do it with cheap video game sounding piano now but I want to work on this to have nice sound.  If the piano sound is not good, then I will consider Dorico.  What I heard on youtube sounded pretty good though.

Prospective contest people - even if I'm done in a few days, you have until the end of the year.  It's not who is quickest that counts in the contest - but you still need to meet the entry deadline.  Let me know before 7/15/19 if you need more time. I look forward to hearing your work!  Thanks!

[klavieronin]

… all I need do now is create my MP3.  I can do it with cheap video game sounding piano now but I want to work on this to have nice sound.  If the piano sound is not good, then I will consider Dorico.

Just so you know, you aren't restricted to the default instruments sounds that come with your notation program. If you are happy with Sibelius but don't like the piano sound you could always buy a different VST piano and have Sibelius use that instead. Of course, Dorico and Finale also allow you to do that. It's not for the sound that I recommend Dorico though. It's for the fast and intuitive editing and the beautiful scores it produces without you having to manually adjust everything (like I had to do in Finale). Post and musicXML file of your fugue and I'll show you what I mean.

P.S. You forgot the time signature.

[georgey]

K: Just so you know, you aren't restricted to the default instruments sounds that come with your notation program. If you are happy with Sibelius but don't like the piano sound you could always buy a different VST piano and have Sibelius use that instead. Of course, Dorico and Finale also allow you to do that.

G: This is great information, but I suspect this will be my last music project.  I’m hoping to do all in 1 program.

K: It's not for the sound that I recommend Dorico though. It's for the fast and intuitive editing and the beautiful scores it produces without you having to manually adjust everything (like I had to do in Finale).

G: I will say I had a lot of manual adjustments and problems, but I only watched 8 minutes of training video so I just assume that a lot of it was my fault.  One example: See how the 3rd beat in 34th measure in bass clef has the same note low A in 2 voices.  This is how I wanted this entire 8 measure section to look but the note heads went on top of each other (except this 1 spot that worked for some unknown reason).  You would not believe the trouble I had with this.  So, I came up with my goofy way to notate this 8 measure section that you see now.

K: Post and musicXML file of your fugue and I'll show you what I mean.

G:  Posted here.  Thanks if you want to show me Dorico.  I renamed the extension from .XML to .PDF so I could post it here.

K: P.S. You forgot the time signature.

G: Oops.

Edit - I moved the last 3 3/4 measures of the fugue up an octave so the XML will not match the PDF of the music in this 1 spot.  This was the only change made.

[klavieronin]

Here you go. This is the raw import from Sibelius to Dorico. I made zero adjustments. Obviously there are going to be a few mistakes and differences just because of the differences between how Dorico and Sibelius interpret the musicxml information but you can see just how much cleaner the Dorico scores are without needing to do anything.

I've also attached an MP3 exported straight from Dorico (default piano sound).

[georgey]

Here you go. This is the raw import from Sibelius to Dorico. I made zero adjustments. Obviously there are going to be a few mistakes and differences just because of the differences between how Dorico and Sibelius interpret the musicxml information but you can see just how much cleaner the Dorico scores are without needing to do anything.

I've also attached an MP3 exported straight from Dorico (default piano sound).

Man, you are FAST!  Fantastic!  You may have just saved me having to go thru 6 15-minute instructional vids!  I am impressed with how accurate the XML export and import went!  I would have guessed that a lot of editing would be needed.  Every note played on your MP3 is correct and the sound is good.  THANK YOU AGAIN! 

[georgey]

Klavieronin,

The piano sound from Dorico is generally a good sound.  I notice though that there appears to be kind of a "random" accenting of notes.  This makes the recording sound maybe a little less mechanical, but it also makes the piece sound more like pop music than classical.  I'm guessing there is a setting in Dorico that allows control of this.  I would definitely opt for an even, no accent sound (unless accent is written) for anything classical.  Just trying to get information before I decide where to go next.  Thanks.

[klavieronin]

The Pro version has an option to adjust the beat stresses but unfortunately the lite version doesn't.

[georgey]

The Pro version has an option to adjust the beat stresses but unfortunately the lite version doesn't.

Thanks.  Random accenting of notes!?!?!  I would like to question the software decider(s) choice to use this as the default and only choice for the lite version.  What were they thinking?

[georgey]

The Pro version has an option to adjust the beat stresses but unfortunately the lite version doesn't.

But I understand it works well for you:

1) You have a different VST piano or have the ability to get one should you need it.
2) The fast and intuitive editing and the beautiful scores it produces without you having to manually adjust everything.

Thanks for your help!  I may end up using your recording that you made for me if I can't come up with a better one using Sibelius ultimate.  I think I should have no problem doing this because I have the ultimate (not lite) version.

I still question the Dorico decision to only offer RANDOM ACCENTS in the piano sound in their lite version!?!?!?!?!?!  Who plays like this??  Maybe a bad player.  If so, why not add some goofy changes in tempo, faulty rhythm, wrong notes, etc?    

I'm putting this project on hold for a while so i can get caught up on other things.   

[klavieronin]

I still question the Dorico decision to only offer RANDOM ACCENTS in the piano sound in their lite version!?!?!?!?!?!  Who plays like this??  Maybe a bad player.  If so, why not add some goofy changes in tempo, faulty rhythm, wrong notes, etc?    

The accents aren't random. My guess is that what you are hearing is where the same note is played in two voices simultaneously. The note will sound louder in these cases because you are hearing two of them. And there are likely to be other reasons that you are hearing accents that aren't the result of a conscious design decision. Sampled piano sounds may by their nature have less consistent dynamics than a simple midi piano. That's the trade off for having a decent sound. And don't forget, this was a raw import from Sibelius to Dorico. You might get a rather different result if the score was created in Dorico.

[georgey]

The accents aren't random. My guess is that what you are hearing is where the same note is played in two voices simultaneously. The note will sound louder in these cases because you are hearing two of them.

HAHAHAHAHA!   No way!  Sorry.  Can't you hear it?  For example - The subject at the beginning (just 1 voice) has 4 RANDOM ACCENTED notes in it alone!!  I should make a pdf with the accented notes circled.  The entire piece is littered with them. When I say RANDOM, i mean RANDOM - they make absolutely no sense musically.

[klavieronin]

I can't hear it. Please upload the PDF.

[klavieronin]

Hahaha, my mistake. Actually there is a "humanize" feature I wasn't aware of. This does indeed produce random dynamics (the amount of which is adjustable.)

[georgey]

I can't hear it. Please upload the PDF.

HAHA - JUST FOR THAT - YOU DO NOT GET TO VOTE IN THE CONTEST!  Just kidding!

Dorico calls it "Humanize feature"?!?!?!?  Why not add in wrong notes, faulty rythems then??  Is it not human to make mistakes???

Playback in Dorico: past, present, and future:
Last, there is the Humanize feature, which adds natural, random fluctuations to a dynamic by a percentage value, to approximate – dynamics-wise – a more natural way of playing. A value of 100% correlates to a potential deviation from the actual value by no more than 40%.

https://www.scoringnotes.com/reviews/playback-in-dorico-past-present-and-future/

[georgey]

Hahaha, my mistake. Actually there is a "humanize" feature I wasn't aware of. This does indeed produce random dynamics (the amount of which is adjustable.)

Thank goodness!  I was going to suggest listening with headphones if you weren't before.  THANK YOU!

[klavieronin]

Here is another mp3 with no humanization and using pianoteq instead of the default piano sound.

[georgey]

Here is another mp3 with no humanization and using pianoteq instead of the default piano sound.

HAHAHA! I don't know who the other guy playing was that you gave me before - but he needs some more piano lessons.  This guy plays pretty good!  This project is completed. 

I would donate for more mosquito nets, but I'm all tapped out:
1. $250 for 1 year Sibelius that I ended up using for about 2 days.  I see that I could have had a 1 month free trial - oh well.
2. $62 +$20 for OC CD's (Ogdon and Madge)

Thank you!!     

[klavieronin]

As per your request, a fully humanized interpretation;

[georgey]

As per your request, a fully humanized interpretation;

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I should enter this guy in the competition!   I think I will!!

He sounds like me when I tried to play this thing.

This about as human as you can get.  Thanks.  This made my week!!!!!!!!! 

[georgey]

Klavieronin,

One last request if you are able.  Can you send another MP3 of the good performance (pianotek) with one change only: increase tempo from 120 BPM to 132 150 BPM?  Like the other fugue, I [edit: may have] come up short on the proper speed.  I understand if you don't have time. No rush.  Thanks if you do this!

Also, the human performance you sent last - this is perfect as is!!  I have no idea how you did this.  I listened to this 8 times and laugh like crazy each time.  It sounds too perfect of an imitation of a bad player that I wonder if you spent a lot of time on this.  It is amazing!  Can you tell me how this was done?  Or is this a secret?

[klavieronin]

Here you go.

The human performance was essentially a matter of setting all the humanize setting to 100% then randomly shifting some of the notes up or down a step and forward or back, then drawing random lines in the tempo track. I really didn't think about it too much. I also slightly de-tuned the piano (not sure if you noticed that.)

[georgey]

Here you go.

The human performance was essentially a matter of setting all the humanize setting to 100% then randomly shifting some of the notes up or down a step and forward or back, then drawing random lines in the tempo track. I really didn't think about it too much. I also slightly de-tuned the piano (not sure if you noticed that.)

So, I listened 1 more time (still laughing like crazy).  You must have some hidden super genius talent for picking your random edits!  You pick the perfect spots and do it with the perfect amount of wrongness to make this seem like a really bad pianist is reading thru this!  Nice tone cluster on 2nd to last chord. Are you sure you didn’t spend a month on this?  Thanks for making this crazy copy!

Also, thanks for bumping to 150 BPM.  The piece comes alive I think at this quicker tempo.  The Rit or Rall at end is nice touch.

Last item – Would you consider entering the JUST FOR FUN contest?  This isn’t really a contest, just a place to show different ideas on how the theme can be used. If you never composed before – perfect.  I can remember the first composition I wrote and the fun I had doing it.  Or maybe you have a lot of experience composing – also perfect.  But I understand if you don’t have time or don’t like the theme.  Keep in mind though what Beethoven thought of Diabelli’s theme (he hated it).

Thanks!         

[klavieronin]

Though I do compose a lot I don't really have the time for your contest. Sorry. Too many other projects happening at the moment.

[georgey]

Though I do compose a lot I don't really have the time for your contest. Sorry. Too many other projects happening at the moment.

I understand!  I'm retired, so I sometimes forget that others have jobs, commitments, etc.  Deadline is 12/31/19 if you happen to ever find a break.