too long movements

[zz]

Ive been thinking about this and I wonder why some composers just keep adding notes like forever, so you have really hard times focusing on the music.
And when its even so long that you have a hard time focusing on listening, then what is even the point.
(opus clavicembalisticum is an extream example, never tried to play it though)
maybe you are no good composer if you need very very much time to say something. A great composer like Chopin only wrote a few pieces that lasts over 10 minutes that I know of. I think Beethovens Hammerklavier third movement is almost impossible to listen through (Ive never cared about learning that piece) but its also written in a period when Beethoven almost didnt compose at all.
Dont get me wrong I think Beethoven is the no 1 composer of all times but I dont think Hammerklavier is one of his greatest moments.

[liszt1022]

when I read the topic, I immediately thought of Hammerklavier mvt. 3. I like the other movements though.
Beethoven is long-winded occasionally (9th symphony, all movements) but he's still great. Schubert, on the other hand, can't write a piano sonata to save his life. I wish more people accepted Godowsky's solution to take bits from different sonatas and make new, more coherent sonatas out of them.

[Brian Healey]

Beethoven is the king of "too long" in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love much of his work, but sometimes I find myself looking at my watch wondering, "This isn't over yet?" Although I suppose when the piece finally does finish, the dramatic effect is that much greater 


Peace,
Bri

[galonia]

In my experience, it is the performer's fault if a piece or movement feels too long.

A good performer has you hanging on to every note, desperately wanting the next one.  A poor performer has you fidgeting and yawning.

It's like a good novel - a novelist with a good writing style has you turning every page, unable to put it down until you read the last word, even if that takes hours (I have read for 8 hours nonstop once, and when I finished, it was sunrise and I had to go to work - I'd forgotten to sleep!!!)

Even the longest Beethoven sonatas, I can be totally mesmerised during the entire sonata when I am listening to a recording of Richter.  And I have a pretty short attention span.  So I don't blame the composer at all.

[ted]

I think it's mainly personal preference in composer, player and listener. Just as authors seem to excel at either novels or short stories, so people like short or long forms, whether they are creators, performers or listeners. I'm a short form man myself , or more correctly stated, I can deal with long pieces provided there exist frequently changing, contrasting sections within them. It's not the time the things take to play but rather the grinding on of one musical idea which turns me off.

 A good improviser who produces a constant kaleidoscope of changing ideas, whether related to one another in formally conventional ways or not, probably has my attention for as long as he cares to play. On the other hand, somebody playing a piece comprising three or four ideas, one and a half chords, umpteen repeats and the rhythm of a dirge had better be a presentable female in a short dress or else the pattern of holes in the ceiling tends to become frightfully interesting.

Many musicians and people I know really enjoy listening to long drawn out repetitious things though and good luck to them, to each his own - just as long as I don't have to sit through it.

[donjuan]

I agree with Brian that Beethoven is the king of "too long".  Take for example 1st movement of Pathetique sonata or the last movement of Appasionata. I cant believe the way he makes us play a long section and then has us repeat the whole thing exactly the same again.  It's kind of the sort of thing I would expect from Schubert.. 

I think the first Movement of the Emperor Concerto is waaay too long, just like Mov. 1 from Tchaikovsky's concerto No.1 is too long.  What bugs me about Tchaikovsky's concerto is how he never repeats the opening theme we all know and love later in the movement.  Many people I know love that opening part, but cant stand to listen to the rest of it.  I wouldnt consider the whole first movement too long if he came back to the original melody at the end, because its things like this that make us want to sit and listen to the whole piece.  (btw, I LOVE the way Liszt comes back to the original theme at the end of Les Preludes - when stuff like that happens, the 13 minutes fly by and I even feel like listening to the whole thing once more)

donjuan

[dmk]

In my experience, it is the performer's fault if a piece or movement feels too long.

A good performer has you hanging on to every note, desperately wanting the next one. A poor performer has you fidgeting and yawning.

It's like a good novel - a novelist with a good writing style has you turning every page, unable to put it down until you read the last word, even if that takes hours (I have read for 8 hours nonstop once, and when I finished, it was sunrise and I had to go to work - I'd forgotten to sleep!!!)

Even the longest Beethoven sonatas, I can be totally mesmerised during the entire sonata when I am listening to a recording of Richter. And I have a pretty short attention span. So I don't blame the composer at all.

Well said Galonia.....I love some of Beethoven's slow movements.  For example the Lento con Espressione 2nd movement of Beethoven's op 7 sonata is more than 12mins long, and I love it, when its played well it is absolutely beautiful!  I have several recordings of this, although one of my favourites it Gerard Willems playing this movement on the Stuart.

when I read the topic, I immediately thought of Hammerklavier mvt. 3. I like the other movements though.
Beethoven is long-winded occasionally (9th symphony, all movements) but he's still great. Schubert, on the other hand, can't write a piano sonata to save his life. I wish more people accepted Godowsky's solution to take bits from different sonatas and make new, more coherent sonatas out of them.

I am starting to get the feeling that I am the only person on this forum who likes Schubert Sonatas, I am feeling very alone on this one!! I most of Schubert Sonatas, i think they are fantastic works, generally underplayed andm, on the whole, damned difficult!!! Do I have any support on this one??

[Regulus Medtner]

I  love Schubert's piano sonatas. Especially the B flat major D960. I agree that it's in the hands of the performer to make this music - as every music -  sound interesting. Schubert, like Medtner, doesn't forgive sloppy or boring, unfelt playing.

[Radix]

Medtner's "Night Wind" sonata...single-movement, about 30 minutes long.  It's fantastic, though.

[dinosaurtales]

I, too love Schubert sonatas, but some of the "too long" feeling comes from the fact that many of his sonatas have 4 movements.  And he likes to do repetitive things with the theme whilest fchanging keys constantly.  So in the wrong hands they just feel long. 

The real kings of going on and on (yawn) seemingly endlessly, forever and ever, blah blah blah (check my watch) - is the Russians.  I swear they got awarded prizes for the biggest fastest loudest piece - want extra bread for your family? show more pride! 

egad!

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Too long movements?

Sorabji. That's all there is to say. 

[steinwayguy]

Am I the only one that wishes the third movement of the Hammerklavier would last 40 minutes? To see that this is not one of Beethoven's greatests moments is absolutely ridiculous. I can't begin to imagine how you could say such a thing. The Hammerklavier was proclaimed by Beethoven as his "most difficult and greatest work". It is not only (arguably) Beethoven's greatest work, but one of the greatest piano sonatas, not to mention pieces, ever written. Also, those of you hating on Schubert sonatas. Have you ever heard a really great performance of his B-flat sonata? If you do, or have the open-mindedness enough to appreciate it, you'll love this piece. It is also one of the greatest piano sonatas ever written.

What are you going to say next, that Beethoven's Opus 111's second movement is too long?

[hodi]

tchaikovsky's first piano concerto is the ultimate spreading piece ever.. it's just never ending and goes nowhere.. and the first movement is 20 minutes!!!!!!!

[zz]

Am I the only one that wishes the third movement of the Hammerklavier would last 40 minutes? To see that this is not one of Beethoven's greatests moments is absolutely ridiculous. I can't begin to imagine how you could say such a thing. The
What are you going to say next, that Beethoven's Opus 111's second movement is too long?

Thats right, no piano movement should be that long .It doesnt matter how you play it, it would be better cut up in about three movements.
Hammerklavier is extremely overrated
maybe it sounded well about 200 years ago.
but it doesnt sound well today.
but before you reply just remember that this just is my opinion, ok

[donjuan]

maybe it sounded well about 200 years ago.
but it doesnt sound well today.

ummm...



huh?

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Thats right, no piano movement should be that long .It doesnt matter how you play it, it would be better cut up in about three movements.
Hammerklavier is extremely overrated
maybe it sounded well about 200 years ago.
but it doesnt sound well today.

Absolute rubbish.

[ted]

I agree with zz. The Hammerklavier and Beethoven in general are too old-fashioned and long-winded to be of any serious interest to me.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

It is zz's "opinion", but he stated it as if it was a fact. This is what I considered absolute rubbish.

[ted]

Quite right. It's my opinion too, but just an opinion. Because so many people say he was so great I did try very hard to understand for many years. I occasionally regret that I cannot think as others seem to but if the penny hasn't dropped yet I somehow doubt it ever will.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Quite right. It's my opinion too, but just an opinion. Because so many people say he was so great I did try very hard to understand for many years. I occasionally regret that I cannot think as others seem to but if the penny hasn't dropped yet I somehow doubt it ever will.

I tend to be the same way toward Chopin. I am, in fact, not really a great fan of his music, and I have often wondered what people find so amazing about his music. I find it all very similar, and quite uncomfortable to play.

Just my opinion though. 

[steinwayguy]

Hammerklavier is extremely overrated

I will (in all likelihood) never respect your opinions.

[Tash]

i've found that if i find myself thinking that a piece is too long and boring then i'm not listening well enough, because everytime i'm only half listening to a piece, i'l re-listen to it with more concentration and realise that it's brilliant.
i can't comment on the hammerklavier cos i haven't gotten round to listening to it yet, but i love schubert's sonatas they're gorgeous!
i like beethoven stretching his symphonies out, just makes it more exciting to me. generally i don't have much against the length of pieces, like my current fave piece is rachmaninov's the isle of the dead- OMG have you listened to it it's brilliant, like 24 minutes long but captures me the whole way through i love it! and the longest piece i've listened to- steve reich's music or 18 musicians, now this is almost the same thing for 56 minutes yet i don't think it's too long.
but in the end this whole thing just once again shows how everyone hears things differently, some like chopin, some don't, whether beethoven is too long is up to the listener, and everybody is never going to agree on any of this- thus celebrate individuality!

[zz]

It is zz's "opinion", but he stated it as if it was a fact. This is what I considered absolute rubbish.

Sorry ´bout that it wasnt my intention to "state a fact" about something like that
but english isnt my real language

[zz]

I think that long movements in symphonies and chamber music is easier to
listen to because there are more than one instrument involved.
I dont think it matter how you play movements like beethovens op 106/3 or second movement op 111. I´m quite sure that most people will still think they are too long.

[Hamfast]

All piano pieces is too short

[apion]

when I read the topic, I immediately thought of Hammerklavier mvt. 3. I like the other movements though.
Beethoven is long-winded occasionally (9th symphony, all movements) but he's still great. Schubert, on the other hand, can't write a piano sonata to save his life. I wish more people accepted Godowsky's solution to take bits from different sonatas and make new, more coherent sonatas out of them.

I absolutely and immediately also thought of HammerK 3rd movement.  But then I took a deep breath, and remembered exactly how transcendent that movement is.

[apion]

Too long movements?

Sorabji. That's all there is to say. 

Why is Sorabji too long?  Is 20 years too long for a fine French wine to age?

Some concepts take T I M E to ripen and develop.

[apion]

I agree with Brian that Beethoven is the king of "too long".  Take for example 1st movement of Pathetique sonata or the last movement of Appasionata. I cant believe the way he makes us play a long section and then has us repeat the whole thing exactly the same again.  It's kind of the sort of thing I would expect from Schubert.. 

I think the first Movement of the Emperor Concerto is waaay too long, just like Mov. 1 from Tchaikovsky's concerto No.1 is too long.  What bugs me about Tchaikovsky's concerto is how he never repeats the opening theme we all know and love later in the movement.  Many people I know love that opening part, but cant stand to listen to the rest of it.  I wouldnt consider the whole first movement too long if he came back to the original melody at the end, because its things like this that make us want to sit and listen to the whole piece.  (btw, I LOVE the way Liszt comes back to the original theme at the end of Les Preludes - when stuff like that happens, the 13 minutes fly by and I even feel like listening to the whole thing once more)

donjuan

I think the first movement of the Emperor is juzt right.  Certainly not too long.   Oooh well.

[apion]

tchaikovsky's first piano concerto is the ultimate spreading piece ever.. it's just never ending and goes nowhere.. and the first movement is 20 minutes!!!!!!!

Of the 50 greatest piano concertos, Tchaikovsky's 1st is the only one that I severely criticize.  I wish I could go back in time and erase the two weeks I spent studying this concerto only to conclude that it's a pile of mediocrity.  I mean, the first 5 minutes are great.  But talk about deterioration.  ...... talk about denoument ..... talk about let down ..... for the remainder of the 1st movement.

Yes, yes, Hodi, it's the "Ultimate Spreading Piece Ever."   Yes!!!!!  How absolutely true.

Damn, if I could only go back in time and recapture all of that fu___ing time spent on that godforsaken first movement.  The sheer wasteland.   Such depravity.

And what really angsts me is that there are folks that like that scrap heap .......