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Topic: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm  (Read 1243 times)

Offline bunify

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Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
on: November 12, 2020, 10:46:43 AM
In this bar in link below I understand there are 4 Beats. However, how would you subdivide the 3rd beat with the 32nd note? Would you just play it as fast as your can?

I can’t find videos where they show how to play 32nd notes with a combination of other notes such as dotted quaver or with 16th notes...I have no idea how people do subdivisions in their heads while playing..

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Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #1 on: November 20, 2020, 05:46:39 AM
In the third beat? 

I suppose you'd call it subdividing, how I do it, but I just think of it as "one and a half" of the dotted eight note, and then when that's done, you land exactly on the fourth beat.

It could probably be explained better by me, but if you don't "feel" the rhythm, sure, you could subdivide into sixteenth notes.

I would find that kind of unproductive, but you could do that.  I wouldn't use a metronome for that, though:  that might be a bit confusing or counterproductive to reading and hearing what's written on the page.

Incidentally, it's a good question, in theory.  Just look at many of the slow movements from, say, Bach's English Suites, and there's a million little things like this that, while they can be decomposed meticuluously, don't ultimately sound very good without an intuition. 

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Offline ted

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #2 on: November 20, 2020, 08:34:51 AM
......there's a million little things like this that, while they can be decomposed meticuluously, don't ultimately sound very good without an intuition.
Tell me about it, I'm hopeless at metronomes and counting. Someone gave me a metronome when I was a kid. I tried it a few times and never used it since because I could see it would undermine my sense of rhythm. It is easy to forget that notated rhythm is an approximation, usually a poor one, to felt rhythm and not vice-versa. For me, rhythm is easily the deepest and most vital property of music. I remember my teacher spending almost a whole lesson on getting me to feel one rhythm in one of his compositions. "But I'm playing what's in the music," I protested. "I know what's in the music," he replied, "I wrote the damn thing. I want you to feel what can't be written." The same thing happened with a passage in the Rhapsody In Blue. "Ted, the way you play that sounds like Gilbert and Sullivan instead of Gershwin, we'll repeat it until you get it." Ultimately I understood.
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Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #3 on: November 20, 2020, 06:29:36 PM
You should be counting 16ths on the 3rd beat.  (3 e + a ) The 32nds are to be played on the last 16th of the beat, and are twice the speed of the 16th count.

FWIW - Timing should be exact - for learning purposes.  Only After that is achieved should  one add their own 'interpretive' nuance - as mentioned by Ted.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #4 on: November 21, 2020, 07:05:26 AM
FWIW - Timing should be exact - for learning purposes.  Only After that is achieved should  one add their own 'interpretive' nuance - as mentioned by Ted.
I get the feeling that's not quite what Ted meant...

Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #5 on: November 21, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
I get the feeling that's not quite what Ted meant...

I can't obviously speak for Ted, and I'm not sure he or I were talking about the same thing, but my basic point is that one could meticulously subdivide into sixteenth notes and count it off, but I find it's easier to look at the notated phrase and have, as a result of practice and experience, an accurate method of observing the notated rhythm.

I'm agnostic as to whether an exact replication is suited for all musics — it surely is not, but equally it's a necessary skill — but just saying that's what I do, count one-and-a-half leaving exactly enough room for the two thirty-second notes.

It's a kind of subdividing, after all, I suppose.  Not as exacting as some of the work orchestral percussionists are called upon to read and master, but more or less the same idea.

I do use the metronome pretty often, but away from the keyboard to work out tempi and make notes for future sessions at the keyboard, and also to work out some more complicated rhythms that I need conceptual insight into.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline ted

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #6 on: November 21, 2020, 09:07:10 AM
I get the feeling that's not quite what Ted meant...
I probably expressed myself badly as usual. Metronomic rhythms and rhythms which can be precisely written are a tiny speck in the universe of rhythm in general. Even if a regular pulse is present or implied it is next to impossible to guarantee transmission of intention in written form alone without weighing the score down with instructions. Any improviser who has attempted to transcribe his own free rhythm will know this. To take a relatively simple example, consider learning the transcription of a Waller solo. A transcriber such as John Farrell was superbly accurate but a player who has not heard the original or who is inexperienced in stride will produce an effect similar to that obtained by keying the score into a computer program. It will have precision of metre and lack just about all else.
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Offline ted

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #7 on: November 21, 2020, 09:22:44 AM
I had better hasten to add that I fully accept many players find metronomes useful for a variety of reasons and good luck to them. The fact that I seem to be constitutionally unable to use one myself is of no particular consequence in the larger scheme of things.
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Offline dogperson

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #8 on: November 21, 2020, 09:31:18 AM
To provide a little information: this same question, as well as similar rhythmic questions, has been posted on another forum. The  OP is a true beginner who does not yet understand the mathematical relationship between note values.  So there is value in slowing down, using s metronome and counting precisely like a computer until you understand how the values interrelate.

This is one situation where working with a teacher until the rhythms are really understood would be invaluable

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #9 on: November 21, 2020, 12:19:30 PM
This should be counted at the level of
1 and
2 and
3 and-a
4 and

with the metronome set to a slow 1 2 3 4, but this does make the presumption that the OP can subdivide within the second 'and' and the third 'a' without interrupting or losing flow. If not, I'm afraid the alternative is going to the rather cumbersome minimum unit which incorporates both the demisemiquaver and the triplet semiquavers, and that means subdividing each beat into 24 (!) units, which you can't even count out loud evenly as 1 2 3 4 etc 23 24 because you start getting numbers with more than one syllable, but basically breaks down to

ONE23456123456 ONE23456123456
ONE23456123456 123456ONE2THREE4FIVE6
ONE23456123456 123456ONE23FOUR56
ONE23456123456 123456123456

where each beat I've written as a word corresponds to a note in the score and each number isn't a note but represents a unit of time.

The latter will get the rhythm right as a slow practice mechanism, but the former is far more desirable in terms of any meaningful a tempo or near tempo practice. If the OP is significantly inexperienced, the former should be supervised if possible.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 02:40:04 PM
I probably expressed myself badly as usual. Metronomic rhythms and rhythms which can be precisely written are a tiny speck in the universe of rhythm in general. Even if a regular pulse is present or implied it is next to impossible to guarantee transmission of intention in written form alone without weighing the score down with instructions. Any improviser who has attempted to transcribe his own free rhythm will know this. To take a relatively simple example, consider learning the transcription of a Waller solo. A transcriber such as John Farrell was superbly accurate but a player who has not heard the original or who is inexperienced in stride will produce an effect similar to that obtained by keying the score into a computer program. It will have precision of metre and lack just about all else.
No, I think you expressed yourself perfectly well. That's exactly what I understood, that precise rhythms don't begin to capture the real complexity of what is actually meant to be played. I have had the same experience with trying to notate some of my improvisations (I gave up eventually) -- often I realize that I have to use polyrhythms or 15-tuplets etc.  in order to actually notate some of the rhythms, especially with irregular runs, while it sounds perfectly natural.

It is less natural to play strictly with a metronome, and the idea of first subjugating your internal sense of pulse to the metronome, and then "rediscovering" it by assiduous regimented study seems ridiculous to me.

Or maybe I'm just making up excuses for my poor rhythm ;D

Offline dogperson

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #11 on: November 21, 2020, 04:36:19 PM
Ranjit
No one is suggesting you play everything with a metronome—- but if you don’t  understand note value relationships, it is a useful tool to check if you are playing the number of notes written within one beat actually within the beat, and when the score indicates they should be played. Understanding is essential if you want to play notated music.

You can check for yourself whether you are sloppy or not: find a score you have neither played nor heard with a combination of different rhythmic patterns. Do not listen yo it.  Can you pencil a line to show which notes are played simultaneously with a note in the other clef, or between two notes in the other clef?  If you can work this out without hearing it, you understand. The OP is learning it.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #12 on: November 21, 2020, 06:47:29 PM
This (im) poster - 'bunify' has had many responses - .  They posted 10 days ago.  Has not responded. I won't respond again to those w a single post.
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Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #13 on: November 21, 2020, 10:04:54 PM
This (im) poster - 'bunify' has had many responses - .  They posted 10 days ago.  Has not responded. I won't respond again to those w a single post.

Yeah, but he or she has impeccable handwriting.  Perhaps he or she missed his or her calling as a graphic artist?  (Yes, I know it was done with a mouse or trackpad in a graphics program:  just a small joke).

I have had the same experience with trying to notate some of my improvisations (I gave up eventually) -- often I realize that I have to use polyrhythms or 15-tuplets etc.  in order to actually notate some of the rhythms, especially with irregular runs, while it sounds perfectly natural.

Yeah, it can be quite a chore.  The more accurate a transcription of a jazz solo of bebop or later periods, the more frustrating it is to both notate and read.  The one advantage is that, unless maybe someone is a student at a specialized college, no one actually reads it off the page.

You can check for yourself whether you are sloppy or not: find a score you have neither played nor heard with a combination of different rhythmic patterns. Do not listen yo it.  Can you pencil a line to show which notes are played simultaneously with a note in the other clef, or between two notes in the other clef?  If you can work this out without hearing it, you understand. The OP is learning it.

That's a very nice point.  I do this all the time if I'm waiting around for something with a score in hand, sometimes for fun, or sometimes as reminders for when I get around to playing a piece at the keyboard.

It's a good thing pencils have erasers, otherwise many scores of mine would resemble a weaving loom full of vertical lines and such.

It's kind of like a "sanity check" or "desk checking" how a piece of computer code would execute, without bothering to compile or run it.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 05:57:50 AM
Can you pencil a line to show which notes are played simultaneously with a note in the other clef, or between two notes in the other clef?  If you can work this out without hearing it, you understand. The OP is learning it.
Isn't it obvious? If I'm getting you correctly, all it requires is an understanding of fractions.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #15 on: November 23, 2020, 07:04:47 PM
Can you pencil a line to show which notes are played simultaneously with a note in the other clef, or between two notes in the other clef?  If you can work this out without hearing it, you understand. The OP is learning it.

Not always.  I run a handbell group, and that notation looks like piano music but there are often real challenges figuring out which notes are on the beat.  But that's a special case, i guess.

I didn't realize the OP might not be able to count it. 

One should be able to understand fractions and count rhythms like that.  And yet, at tempo it's frequently impossible, even when the rhythms are in strict time.  I sometimes play with a group of professionals that have played jazz and big band standards since before I was born (and I'm pretty old) and they don't play what's on the sheet.  I have to listen hard and pay attention.  And I can't count any of that at speed.  It's learned by rote. 

What I would tell the OP is when you're uncertain of a spot like you shared, type it into a notation program and let the computer play it.  Then set it up to loop and play along with it, multiple times, until it's solid.  I think you have to do both learn to count and learn to internalize common patterns by rote. 

Tim

Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #16 on: November 24, 2020, 04:16:18 AM
One should be able to understand fractions and count rhythms like that.  And yet, at tempo it's frequently impossible, even when the rhythms are in strict time.  I sometimes play with a group of professionals that have played jazz and big band standards since before I was born (and I'm pretty old) and they don't play what's on the sheet.  I have to listen hard and pay attention.  And I can't count any of that at speed.  It's learned by rote.

That's a nice observation:  as you know, some charts can be written by, excuse the expression, nerds who write things out because, IMHE, that's the way they were taught to seem "legit" in some school or something.  Or for other reasons:  I'm meticulous when transcribing solos, but it's really partly fun and partly the joy in being "right."

Reading scores or even charts, of any kind of complexity, is to me, really a matter of perspective. 

How much detail to focus on, and how much to just glance at and see the idea.

I don't know, it's like deciding which kind of eyeglasses to use at any given time.

Also, shout out to the comment about counting it out and stuff:  TBH, I haven't counted out loud or consciously "in loud" since I was a very small child. 

But, I do love the metronome. 

Not to play along with (yes, there are varying "opinions" among jazz "musicians" who "think" that setting the metronome on the upbeats in a common-time tune encourages "swing"), but as a theoretical little tool for on my desk. 

I'm a bit ashamed to say, but most of the work I do in classical repertoire is done by reading and marking up scores, away from the keyboard.  Often at my desk at home, or just whenever I have to wait for something elsewhere, I'll always have a few scores with me, or at least some blank staff paper and a pencil.

2B lead is my standard pencil, although I go from HB-->8B, in 2mm, and either in a Staedtler Mars Technico 780 or one of two Koh-I-Noor lead-holder styles I favor.  And a Staedtler stick eraser.  Always in my pocket.

Of course, my favorite metronome is in fact pocket sized....let me see...Ah, yes, the Wittner "Super Mini."  It can fit in a pocket, but I'm not such a jerk that I'd use it in public while reading or thinking about music.

That's really the key, isn't it?  The mechanical aspects, yes, I struggle sometimes with execution like everyone, but I think the real work is done in the mind.

Love it, love playing around with emphasizing different beats, but I don't think it's a substitute for really playing, whether solo or in a combo.

But here's the devil's advocate:  I have never had a studio job where I had headphones on with a click and had to punch in.  And yet, having that awareness of rhythm makes me think (i) I would hate it but also (ii) could probably do it, albeit not my best playing in that condition.

but also (iii) it's just basic musicianship, you know.   Who cares?  Count it off and make it sound good. It's a very technical art and craft, but so is making cartoons or whatever.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #17 on: November 24, 2020, 01:04:49 PM
But here's the devil's advocate:  I have never had a studio job where I had headphones on with a click and had to punch in.  And yet, having that awareness of rhythm makes me think (i) I would hate it but also (ii) could probably do it, albeit not my best playing in that condition.

While I've never had a studio job, I've done several multitrack recordings with a click track, just for fun, both singing and instrumental.

I don't find it particularly hard. I don't think you would either.  On the other hand I play frequently with ensembles so I have some experience conforming to external pulse. 

On one occasion work required me to "volunteer" to produce a recording for a virtual choir, and provided a wind ensemble recording to accompany.  I had to sing at the pitch and tempo of an Army band so that it could be assembled as part of a virtual choir.  Somebody's good idea.  I think I have it on youtube if anybody's interested.  I found that it was easy to sing along but very hard to do a good job of it, too much to concentrate on.  It's not my best vocal effort by any means, not that I'm that good anyway. 
Tim

Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #18 on: November 26, 2020, 09:47:15 PM
I had to sing at the pitch and tempo of an Army band so that it could be assembled as part of a virtual choir.  Somebody's good idea.  I think I have it on youtube if anybody's interested.  I found that it was easy to sing along but very hard to do a good job of it, too much to concentrate on.  It's not my best vocal effort by any means, not that I'm that good anyway.

Yeah, I'd be interested.  No, I wouldn't give any critique or anything, but I think a lot of the players at this forum would be enlightened a bit by seeing a bit of the "behind the scenes" work that professionals do.

From my perspective as just as an average, competent, jack-of-all-trades kind of musician, I like to think I've seen and done it all, particularly on-stage, but also fiddling around with DAW sets of tracks.

No, I'm not claiming to be some UNT or Berklee master musician, but it's always interesting.

I think of somebody like Richard Tee on acoustic piano in the studio playing to a click and absolutely nailing it:  clearly, it can be done by a competent musician, but I imagine that kind of corporate environment as being very tiring. 

So, in short, not only am I interested, I should think many people here would be.
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #19 on: November 27, 2020, 12:41:12 PM
Yeah, I'd be interested.  No, I wouldn't give any critique or anything, but I think a lot of the players at this forum would be enlightened a bit by seeing a bit of the "behind the scenes" work that professionals do.


I really hope that I have never ever given the impression I am a pro at anything.  Well, I'm a reasonably competent engineer, but even there I've been in management a long time and some of the technical skills have faded. 

I'm just an enthusiastic amateur, play trombone in community bands, occasionally have been a bad church pianist and worse organist, direct a handbell choir for a church, and sing or cantor when needed. 
As I near retirement I'm trying to work on piano again but not making much progress yet.

Now you've encouraged me to finish that video.  The military band that's playing in my ear (you can see the earbud hanging down) is not audible in the video so you can't tell how close I am to the tempo and pitch.  I'm told it was right on but you can't tell.  So I need to find that version and sync it up to the video. 

The back story:  the Army changed the name of that piece in 1956 and the older one is still in my brain, so I wasn't going to do this, but my group couldn't time it correctly or sing on pitch, so I did it myself, and that's why I added a little snark.



Tim

Offline j_tour

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Re: Playing with metronome with combination of rhythm
Reply #20 on: November 27, 2020, 03:08:25 PM
The back story:  the Army changed the name of that piece in 1956 and the older one is still in my brain, so I wasn't going to do this, but my group couldn't time it correctly or sing on pitch, so I did it myself, and that's why I added a little snark.



Absolutely brilliant. 

As I'm coming down from smiling from joy at your performance, that really does summarize, at least to me, a good way to work with a click track and put together a precise performance.

That's not too different than how I work with the metronome away from the keyboard.

Different style of music than I study, but, same idea.

Reminds me of the Brecht-Weill tune, "Let's all go barmy, and join the army, see the world we never saw!"

I think it's a great contribution you made, and perhaps some others can see that it's not necessarily so difficult to be precise and accurate when doing abstract work with the metronome.

No, as you say, obviously can't hear what's in your earphone, but it's easy to discern.

Nice work!
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.
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