Physiology of Bar 2 of Chopin's Op.10 No.4

[sunlightscreen]

Even though I got my ARCT 5 years ago and can stretch to reach a 10th, simply put, the torrent etude is the hardest etude I have come across played at the right speed, true presto, like how Richter did. At that speed, I have played all the other parts correctly but somehow the right hand in the start of the 2nd bar always gets me.

How can I practice that in a way that accounts for the physiology of the hand? Some people suggest playing it EXTREMELY slow, but it doesn't work as I tried that for 3 months already and there's no improvement. I then tried playing it at Richter's speed for that section for 2 months, and in each practice session there were a few tries hitting the correct sequence of notes, but it isn't consistent, no clear improvement until I tapered from doing that for 1 month. I can then play the section with greater accuracy at high speeds for 3 days, but the next few days I couldn't do it. The tapering process is too slow.

Some people suggested tapping on the table, but clearly, tapping on the table with a book the same height as the note's pressed depth doesn't work both when lifting the fingers to tap and no lifting of the fingers. Also, I've tried all sorts of different positions for the section but sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, and it's not a problem with strength because I don't work out my forearms AND I found that power napping helps with playing it at high speeds in a controlled manner (power napping relaxes certain muscles and improves others); hence, it's a problem with muscle activations – but the muscle/joint movements are extremely subtle, simply practicing trilling doesn't work.

My question is, for people who know hand anatomy very well, how can I improve the torrent etude? Or is there a more general tactic like power napping to focus on muscle activation for that specific section? I mean, I really want to get this section right so I can carry on with other pieces, and at times I can play it at high speeds in a controlled and accurate way, but it isn't consistent.

Some more information: I notice when playing at the position of the "controlled accurate way" which is the slight bend of the second finger joint in anticipation of the next part and immediate bend of the fifth finger joint upon the fourth finger hitting, sometimes my middle finger doesn't activate after the fourth finger hitting, but it always activates when the fifth note doesn't get hit, so 2343 is accurate at high speeds, not 23435. Possibly it is the stretch that makes it hard for me compared to Richter's massive hands. Also, 3435 with both the second finger holding the note down and second finger pointing horizontally is accurate at high speeds (however, I did notice that my middle finger in this case moves a little laterally to press the second time, maybe it uses the interossei instead of the fdp? Maybe I should focus on practicing middle finger pressing down straight, so to activate the other muscle), but just not 23435 – it's the combination 23435 that hinders me, when broken down into specific parts such as 3435 and 2343 it works quite well. But somehow, I managed to pull the section off at Richter's speed 5 times in a row accurately and in a controlled way in the 3 days after taper, so it's doable, I think. Today I tried flat fingers and after a few repeats I can get it up to Richter speed for bar 2, however, it only lasted for a few moments. This leads me to question whether or not the lumbricals are the predominantly used for bar 2, and if so, how to exercise it (I hear that lumbricals are used when playing flat fingered).

Edit: I'm looking for answers the address the 23435 way of playing it and how to correctly activate the right muscle to play the middle finger straight up and down, I've tried all sorts of fingering and it just doesn't work at high speeds, don't be off topic please.

[lelle]

Hi and welcome! Having worked a lot on the Chopin Etudes I think trying to solve this by making up a detailed plan for every movement and the physiology of the hand is the wrong tree to climb up in.

In my experience, it's all about learning how to not tense your body as you play, and if you can do that the body will figure out the details. Of course, you have to have some idea of the movements - moving the fingers independently and not making big arm movements up and down on each note for example, as this will be impossible to do in presto. If you struggle and mess up, there is likely tension somewhere that is interfering with your ease of movement and control. Diagnosing this via text in a forum is pretty tough, though.

Are you able to keep your wrist totally supple as you play these passages slowly to mid tempo? Is your thumb supple and mobile? What about the other fingers? Are your shoulders relaxed? Is your breathing calm and open? Does your body feel comfortable and at ease as you practise?

[nw746]

Some more information: I notice when playing at the position of the "controlled accurate way" which is the slight bend of the second finger joint in anticipation of the next part and immediate bend of the fifth finger joint upon the fourth finger hitting, sometimes my middle finger doesn't activate after the fourth finger hitting, but it always activates when the fifth note doesn't get hit, so 2343 is accurate at high speeds, not 23435. Possibly it is the stretch that makes it hard for me compared to Richter's massive hands. Also, 3435 with both the second finger holding the note down and second finger pointing horizontally is accurate at high speeds, but just not 23435 – it's the combination 23435 that hinders me, when broken down into specific parts such as 3435 and 2343 it works quite well. But somehow, I managed to pull the section off at Richter's speed 5 times in a row accurately and in a controlled way in the 3 days after taper, so it's doable, I think.

Possibly a stupid question & something you've already considered but Cortot, Friedman, Pachmann & Klindworth all propose 23425 instead—is that any easier? (I realise that on Cortot's recordings he plays the etude at 84 BPM, but I don't see why the fingering shouldn't work as well at faster tempi. Richter and Cziffra, for the record, play well over tempo, at around 100 BPM; the correct tempo is 88 BPM)

[sunlightscreen]

Hey thanks for the reply ... however, I'm looking for someone who has played specifically this etude and has mastered bar 2 at Richter speed for their advice, I've tried your general ideas the first time I played it and it's common sense to be honest, but for this specific bar it requires something more than that. I appreciate your effort though.

[lostinidlewonder]

You mean the RH figures after the C# octave?
(15)312 3412 3412 3412?

[nw746]

You mean the RH figures after the C# octave?
(15)312 3412 3412 3412?

I assumed this part


(or with the OP's fingering:

)

[lostinidlewonder]

3425 1325 etc has much more potential for control/speed compared to 3435 2325 1215 etc. The latter is inferior and the accents changing between the 1 and 2 seems to beg for the thumb to be used each time instead. Also the tension created returning to an accented finger immediately is best avoided if you are playing very fast.

One could practice it in these groups extremely fast 342...5132...5132...5132. with controlled pausing inbetween. Also 3425....1325....1325..etc You can even practice it without the 5th finger (which should be much easier) then ponder why its inclusion may cause your hand problems. You probably will find the first two groups of four semiquavers the most difficult to connect but the last three quite easy.

[lelle]

Hey thanks for the reply ... however, I'm looking for someone who has played specifically this etude and has mastered bar 2 at Richter speed for their advice, I've tried your general ideas the first time I played it and it's common sense to be honest, but for this specific bar it requires something more than that. I appreciate your effort though.

For what it's worth, I tried it out on a grand at quarter note = 205. Not perfectly clean, so no I haven't mastered it, but it felt like it could be doable with some slow,mindful work and it didn't feel like what was missing was a detailed physiological analysis of exactly how to bend each finger and at which moment. There is no time to think about that when playing fast anyways. To me, its more about getting the body into a state that will enable you to succeed than try to micromanage details. Like, you can think about hand anatomy all day long, but if the problem is that you have a habit of slightly tensing your wrist extensors when you play, it won't help you. For me, figuring out how to consciously let go of that tension and improving finger coordination has been what has tended to work.

I think lostinidlewonder's comment on fingering is good.