A personal path through Chopin easy to intermediate op

[joe falchetto]

In learning Chopin, which of the following paths should I pick for this year? A bit of background on me at the end of the post.

1. Focus on Waltzes. There are 11 I would like to learn. 3 of them I have learned already in the past, 2 I am working on. They should all be within reach.

2. Mix Waltzes with those Preludes and Nocturnes which are within reach.

3. Study a harder piece (Bolero and Improptu 1 should be reasonable. According to some of those arbitrary gradings, Fantasie-Improptu and Berceuse should be at a similar level of those and the harder Waltzes. I wish but I am a bit sceptical).

All three alternatives appeal to me in different ways, curious to hear opinions about the pros and cons of each.


About me: when learning piano as a teenager I studied Waltzes n 1, 6, 10, that is op 18, 64/1 and 69/2. I also played Nocturne op 9 n.2. Having restarted a few months ago, I am working on n.7 (op 64/2), mostly speeding it up as by another post and started 14 (posth).

Currently I am also working on some Back inventions (8 done, 14 mostly done, 15 next) and Mozart Fantasia K397. These are probably at an easier level than the Chopin pieces I am studying, but I had never played any Bach before and only the the Alla Turca rondo by Mozart.

In terms of romantic repertoire, the teacher who is following me has suggested I also consider Schuber'st Improptus (and invited me to stay with op 90 rather than 142, or n.2 or 3 of op 142 if I must).

EDIT: by the way, by harder in 3 I mostly mean longer and with a more complicated structure. Perhaps a Polonaise could also be an option for n.3.

[thirtytwo2020]

I'm impressed by the care and consideration you're putting into your choice of repertoire!

You deserve a carefully considered answer, but I'll just give you my spontaneous thought, for what it's worth:

You already have a longer piece in the Mozart K397. And to me, playing more than two or three Chopin waltzes per year in your stage of learning seems odd. Mixing with a couple of Preludes and a Nocturne I think will be more rewarding and will develop a more well-rounded technique and musicality.

However, I also just want to say that in my experience, Fantaise-Impromptu is not quite as hard as it sounds.

[dogperson]

First year:  I would maybe just work on the two waltzes you are doing, , add the nocturnes etc at the same difficulty level.   Perhaps start working on one more difficult piece, but don’t make it the primary focus. Fi gets lots of opinions about difficulty.  You need to be able to play fast but smoothly and musically. You could certainly add it as your ‘dessert’ piece.  Forget Berceuse for now: it has every type of required skill imaginable.

[lelle]

Some of the nocturnes are quite difficult indeed, so I assume you mean waltzes + some of the easier nocturnes?

[ranjit]

Tangent to the OP, but I wonder what are the actual skills required to play these pieces, and what is the actual difficulty. When have you "really" played a Chopin waltz or nocturne? How do you judge that? I can comment on the notes -- that if you have some familiarity with Chopin, I think it's entirely possible to memorize a waltz in 1-2 weeks -- the structure is usually quite simple, and if you can make sense of the chords from a functional perspective, they aren't that hard to remember eventually imo. Of course, this will depend on your level among other things. Also, keep in mind that every successive piece will be easier than the last, and so it's better to try and learn a piece well than rush it, because the skills will transfer to the next one and you will learn it faster and better.

I think Fantaisie Impromptu is harder than most of the waltzes. If you don't have a lot of experience with playing fast passages, you are almost guaranteed to fudge the notes. It's definitely easier to comfortably play the waltzes as compared to the FI at tempo.

I'm not a teacher, so take my advice with a grain of salt. If your teacher thinks it would be reasonable, I would try and work on the Berceuse or Fantaisie Impromptu. If you can't directly reach those pieces, then it means that you need to get better at certain techniques, for which it might be a good idea to work on specific pieces where the same techniques are used, but are easier than the original, as exercises. At the same time, it's not ideal to focus all of your attention on a difficult piece, so it would make sense to simultaneously learn a waltz or nocturne, or multiple, in parallel.

The reason I say this is because, given your description, you have already played 3 waltzes and a nocturne. So you are presumably aware of the form and typical areas of difficulty you might encounter in those kinds of pieces. However, Chopin's larger scale works can have things which you are unfamiliar with and which you might not be able to get better at just by working on the waltzes or nocturnes. If you encounter those difficulties a year down the road, you would then have to start working on those, possibly from scratch. So I think it would be better to identify and start developing those skills (but not necessarily the pieces themselves) from now on. I'd say that would give you the best shot at completing your list as fast as possible.

At the same time, it's not clear from your post what your comfort level is playing Chopin waltzes. You mention there has been a break in your studies -- how well can you play the ones you listed? If you can't play at least 1-2 waltzes/nocturnes already, there's no point in working on the harder pieces.

[lostinidlewonder]

In learning Chopin, which of the following paths should I pick for this year? A bit of background on me at the end of the post.

1. Focus on Waltzes. There are 11 I would like to learn. 3 of them I have learned already in the past, 2 I am working on. They should all be within reach.

2. Mix Waltzes with those Preludes and Nocturnes which are within reach.

3. Study a harder piece (Bolero and Improptu 1 should be reasonable. According to some of those arbitrary gradings, Fantasie-Improptu and Berceuse should be at a similar level of those and the harder Waltzes. I wish but I am a bit sceptical).

All three alternatives appeal to me in different ways, curious to hear opinions about the pros and cons of each.

I don't really see a question in everything you wrote other than simply asking which of the three you should do. Defining pros and cons would require specific knowledge of your ability and experience. Do you mean Chopin is all you are going to do all year? That seems a bad idea in itself.

[joe falchetto]

I don't really see a question in everything you wrote other than simply asking which of the three you should do. Defining pros and cons would require specific knowledge of your ability and experience. Do you mean Chopin is all you are going to do all year? That seems a bad idea in itself.

Yes the question is pros/cons of the alternatives, and, sorry if I say this, but it looks like you read my post very quickly (understandable since it is long).

Quoting my first post

Currently I am also working on some Back inventions (8 done, 14 mostly done, 15 next) and Mozart Fantasia K397. These are probably at an easier level than the Chopin pieces I am studying, but I had never played any Bach before and only the the Alla Turca rondo by Mozart.

so no, I am doing other things, but romantic repertoire and Chopin in particular is what I care about the most.

I try to work on 4 pieces at a time, 1 baroque, 1 classical, 2 romantic, this post was about what to do next for the romantic period. I still need to discuss it with my teacher but after invention 15 by Bach I was thinking of going for French Suite n 4 or 6. Don't know what will come next for the classical period.

In my first post I also gave an idea of what I have studied in the past. Of course that is not very specific, but this is an internet forum and I am looking for ideas/opinions, not expecting a deeply personalised answer.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes the question is pros/cons of the alternatives, and, sorry if I say this, but it looks like you read my post very quickly (understandable since it is long).

I did read your whole post and suggested that we would need specific knowledge of your ability, experience, developmental needs etc otherwise the suggestions will just be generalized responses. There is nothing wrong with doing any of the three but I asked if Chopin is all you are going to do for the whole year which you now clarified was not the case. Studying only harder pieces for the whole year is generally not a good idea so your option 3 probably is the worst selection but then again many people gain a lot of experience from doing difficult pieces, it just should not contribute to the majority of your weekly efforts. You should just get through all the easier Chopin pieces (many of the preludes stand out as very quick to learn) first and then build towards the others, that way you will get more pieces done and practice many skills too. Have you studied Field or Cramer? They usually compliment study of Chopin very well.

[joe falchetto]

I did read your whole post and suggested that we would need specific knowledge of your ability, experience, developmental needs etc otherwise the suggestions will just be generalized responses. There is nothing wrong with doing any of the three but I asked if Chopin is all you are going to do for the whole year which you now clarified was not the case. Studying only harder pieces for the whole year is generally not a good idea so your option 3 probably is the worst selection but then again many people gain a lot of experience from doing difficult pieces, it just should not contribute to the majority of your weekly efforts. You should just get through all the easier Chopin pieces first and then build towards the others, that way you will get more pieces done and practice many skills too.

I see, I had misunderstood your post then.

The plan is roughly half romantic, quarter baroque (Bach period), quarter classical (right name? Mozart period) plus technique (mostly Czerny and Rossomandi). Of course it's not meant to be strict 1/2, 1/4, 1/4.

I am thinking less about what to do next in baroque and classical as I don't have strong preferences and I am happy to follow what my teacher suggests. On the other hand, at least for now romantic period is my favourite and I love Chopin (how original, I know), so I like to take a more active role in proposing and planning what to do.

In a sense the question is: for someone in my condition (as imperfectly and vaguely described in these posts), what would be the best course of action to improve his understanding and playing of Chopin?

Chopin as a whole composer, I love Ballade 1 as much as any other beginner wannabe, but there is really little by him which I wouldn't like to play someday. Therefore I am not so interested in the shortest path to Ballade or Winter wind, but rather in opinions about how to best grow as a pianist strongly focused on Chopin, starting from where I am now and looking one year ahead.

EDIT
I played a nocturne by Field once. Probably a very easy one and I was not impressed. Never tried Cramer, had a look at Heller, which is also sometimes recommended, but got bored.

[lostinidlewonder]

In a sense the question is: for someone in my condition (as imperfectly and vaguely described in these posts), what would be the best course of action to improve his understanding and playing of Chopin?

I mean there really isn't any special answer to this, simply play a lot of Chopin's works and then there are also other composers who are quite relevant to technique/fingering in Chopin. If you play all the easier selections of his preludes and waltzes you will have a good group of pieces. To technically solve his more difficult works well this is best answered through your own teacher. Heller, Cramer, Burlow, etudes from these composers should be of interest, heck if you are subjecting yourself to Czerny they should not be that difficult to enjoy.