Concertos

[musicsdarkangel]

I have only played a Hayden concerto (d major) and Mozart concerto (d minor k 466).  I am also going to complete Franck's Variations Symphoniques. 

I was hoping that you all could name your favorite concertos, rank them by difficulty, and unfortunately I can only play one movement with the orchestra, so maybe which movement you would recommend?

My teacher has recommended me to the 3rd movement of the Mendelssohn, Beethoven's Emperor, and Shumann.

Please give me your thoughts, I want to listen to as many concertos as possible and want to find something challenging.

[jcromp78]

Well, there are a ton of concertos out there good and bad. Here are my favorites

Beethoven No. 1-First Movement

Beethoven No. 4-First Movement

Chopin No. 2-First Movement

Prokofiev 3rd Concerto-3rd Movement

Prokofiev 1st Concerto- All in one Movement and a clever piece.

Samuel Barber Concerto-Wow this is awesome you got hear it!

Saint-Saens-Anything from the 2nd 4th or 5th Concerti

Xavier Schwarenka-Fourth Concerto-1st or 4th for an extreme test of dexterity

Of all of these I would say the Schwarenka and Barber are the most difficult, at least to me they seem it.

[SteinwayTony]

Well you could smack them with a technicality and tell them you'll be playing the first Liszt Concerto, which is a single (long) movement.

If you want a challenge (that's an understatement), Bartok 1 & 2 are nearly unplayable.

[pianonut]

leroy anderson's piano concerto. 

[sharon_f]

First, congratulations on learning the Franck Symphonic Variations. I don't know if you chose it or your teacher, but it is a wonderful piece of music and not played very often. I think after the Haydn, Mozart and Frank, the first movement of the Emperor would be a good stretch, both technically and musically.

[Pianostudy]

I like the Gershwin Concerto in F, first movement.  It is pretty diffiicult, but worth the task of learning.  It has a lot of technically challeninging passages and is a big audience pleaser.  You should learn this one!

[musicsdarkangel]

this just in:  my teacher says that I can do a full concerto and expects me to.


unfortunately, I haven't completed the Franck yet, but it is a beautiful piece and not played nearly enough as deserved.  I totally agree.


He recommended the Mendelssohn g minor to me (all 3 mvmnts)

[musicsdarkangel]

I like the Gershwin Concerto in F, first movement.  It is pretty diffiicult, but worth the task of learning.  It has a lot of technically challeninging passages and is a big audience pleaser.  You should learn this one!

I was considering that, but my closest piano buddy learned that this year, and I would just think it would be wierd for me to do it next year.  It is a wonderful work, and someday I will play it.

[sharon_f]

The Mendelssohn is a lot of fun, especially the last movement. And the slow movement is gorgeous. The concerto was one of Serkin's favorites. Good luck and enjoy.

[steinwayguy]

If your teacher wants a complete concerto and recommends Mendelssohn, you could do Mendelssohn or . . .
Beethoven 1 and 2, probably 3
Any Mozart (except 25)
Either Chopin
Bartok 3 (I love this piece)
Prokofiev 1
Schumann would be nice

If this is for a competition, I would recommend of the above in the following order:
Beethoven 3
Prokofiev 1
Bartok 3
Chopin E Minor

So pick one and get started ASAP 

[Goldberg]

That list looks good, SteinwayGuy, with the exception of the Beethoven 3rd concerto. I wouldn't recommend it for a competition because SO many people play it at competitions and it really isn't that challenging either way you look at it. If it's going to be a Beethoven, my opinion would be to do no. 4 or none at all.

My own choice, though, would be the Bartok 3, for something that isn't very well-known but not TOO obscure. Plus it's excellent music, with a healthy dose of challenge without the impossibility of his 1st and 2nd concerti.

Also, I'll echo the compliments about the Symphonic Variations. I'm a huge fan of the piece, and in fact I'm watching the Cziffra/Cziffra duo play it now. A phenomenal performance! If you haven't already, get the easy-to-find EMI:Classics DVD for the Variations and a lot of other good stuff.

[pseudopianist]

I can honstely say that I think Chopin wrote the two best concertos IMO but I think a lot of people will disagree.


I LOVE the first movement of Rachmaninovs first concerto.

[SteinwayTony]

I can honstely say that I think Chopin wrote the two best concertos IMO but I think a lot of people will disagree.


I LOVE the first movement of Rachmaninovs first concerto.

All factors included, Chopin probably wrote two of the worst concertos in the repertory.  They're nice, but the orchestration killed him.  Today's orchestras hate to play them.  When you go to see one played live, look for the grimaces on their faces!
 

[shasta]

He recommended the Mendelssohn g minor to me (all 3 mvmnts)

The Mendelssohn G minor is a hoot to perform and listen to!  Have fun with it!  You might also look at his D minor concerto.  It's more difficult, darker in color, and not as common as the G minor.  Even more rare is his E minor, which you never hear.

[Goldberg]

I can honstely say that I think Chopin wrote the two best concertos IMO but I think a lot of people will disagree.


I LOVE the first movement of Rachmaninovs first concerto.

Yeah, I'm one of those people. I do have a slight bias against Chopin, but even with that removed I don't think very highly of the concerti...though there are some really wicked parts in the F minor one (I don't know why "everyone" seems to like the E minor one over the F minor one). I also love that Rach concerto--it's really the only one right now that I can really stand to listen to.

As for some "best" concerti...I hadn't really thought of that, but personally I think Brahms and Dvorak should be on the list of candidates, as well as Bartok, Prokofiev, and Mozart. Outside of those, I've got plenty of concerti that I prefer, but wouldn't necessarily consider them to be as brilliant as those (ie, Sauer, Moszkowski, Liszt, Field, and the like). Rachmaninoff's concerti are remarkable, I think, only in that they provide a very clear insight into perhaps the truest "Romantic concerto form" available, in regards to overall structure, development, and technique. How he presents what he says is significant, I say, but my own opinion is that I don't necessarily like what it is he has to say...if that makes sense.

I also revere Grieg's as being extremely brilliant.

[steinwayguy]

Yeah, I'm one of those people. I do have a slight bias against Chopin, but even with that removed I don't think very highly of the concerti...though there are some really wicked parts in the F minor one (I don't know why "everyone" seems to like the E minor one over the F minor one)

As for some "best" concerti...I hadn't really thought of that, but personally I think Brahms and Dvorak should be on the list of candidates, as well as Bartok, Prokofiev, and Mozart.

I also revere Grieg's as being extremely brilliant.

The Chopin concerti are certainly not amongst the greatest in the the repertoire, but they are still great. I have always had a preference for the F Minor. You must keep in mind that no orchestra in the world wants to play Chopin F Minor 

If the teacher recommends Mendelssohn, Brahms and Prokofiev are WAY out of the question, except maybe Prokofiev 1. The only conceivable Bartok is 3, as I said earlier. Mozart the only ones to consider are 20, 21, or 23. Yes, 21. If Beethoven, knowing your teacher's recommendations, do 5. Beethoven G Major is something you play much later in life... Grieg is horrendously overplayed. Every pianist between the ages of 12 and 16 plays that piece!

Pretty much in a concerto competition, it's more about how you play than what you play. Keep that in mind.

That said,
Bartok 3
Mozart 23
Prokofiev 1

[rachmaninoff_969]

I would like to add a few suggestions to the wonderful list of concertos that has been given.  Before that I would like to agree with those who are warning you to steer clear of Bartók 1 and 2.  I played 2 last year and nearly killed myself doing it.  I would also like to make a general comment regarding the degree of difficulty of pieces.  Keep in mind that no matter how "easy" a concerto is technically, it is still possible to play it badly.  When choosing a concerto I feel it is equally important to choose one that you feel "in tune" with (forgive the  pun), otherwise the interpretation often comes off unsuccessful.  I am not sure if these are applicable to the competition you are entering but allow to suggest the following pieces with orchestra and piano:

Saint-Saëns "Africa" fantasie, Op. 89
Rimsky-Korsakov, Op. 30
Mendelssohn's works for piano and orchestra other than his 3 concertos (ie. cappricios)
Ginastera also has a great concerto, but it may be too difficult at this stage
Lastly, my favorite suggestion to all pianists entering competitions...play a Bach concerto!  They come across as being quite impressive if played well, although steer clear of something that may seem too short (ie. F minor concerto)...I would suggest the A major concerto, or the d minor (although this one is overplayed).  Check them out...I believe there are seven in total.

Cheers & Happy Practicing!

[lenny]

All factors included, Chopin probably wrote two of the worst concertos in the repertory.  They're nice, but the orchestration killed him.  Today's orchestras hate to play them.  When you go to see one played live, look for the grimaces on their faces!
 

this is why klindworth re-orchestrated them, yet they are hardly ever played

[Hamfast]

my favourite concertos is Chopin's ones
I was trying play Grieg's concerto a minor but I recommend Saint-Saens conceros!
beautiful!

RACHMANINOFF'S C MINOR IS WONDERFUL, TOO.

I wish you will play all.

[lenny]

when it comes to learning concertos - there is one rule:

you must love it

learning a concerto is such a big commitment, and the only way you can possibly play it sincerely and well is if you truly adore the music

it also makes the process quicker and more fun of course!

[keys]

I know it's tragically over played, but I absolutely adore the Tchaikovsky concerto no1. It's the concerto I'm playing right now, and I'm sure half of you are working on it currently, or have played it before.  Rach's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini is also beautiful and worth a listen. I agree with lenny, go with what you LOVE!

[lenny]

listen to the hard to find cziffra live recording of that concerto

most aggressive reading ive ever heard!

[musicsdarkangel]

can you all rate these by difficulty?

[Goldberg]

Sure, I'd like to give it a whirl...but could you give me a more accurate definition of "these"? We've listed a lot of concerti, and it would help if you could list the ones you're most interested in playing.

[musicsdarkangel]

There are a lot

Beethoven no 1
Beethoven no 2
Beethoven no 4
Beethoven no 5
Chopin no 1
Chopin no 2
Prokofiev 1st
Prokofiev 3rd
Barber 1st
Saint-seans 2nd
Saint-seans 4th
Bartok 2
Bartok 3
Schumann
Grieg a minor
Franck symphony and variations
Liszt 1
Liszt 2
Liszt Totentanz
Brahms 1
Brahms 2
Rachmaninoff 1
Rachmaninoff 2
Rachmaninoff 3
Tchaikovsky 1
Mendelssohn g minor
Mendelssohn d major
Mozart d minor (21?)

I am not considering all of these, but I am curious, so if you have an idea of the difficulty of these, please share.

Thank you very much.

p.s. I know that it depends on the pianist, but I was just like a relative guess.  1-10 maybe.  1 being easiest 10 being hardest

[lenny]

rach 3 would be a 10 for starters! 

[steinwayguy]

Beethoven 1: 4
Beethoven 2: 4
Beethoven 4: 10
Beethoven 5: 7
Chopin E Minor: 7
Chopin F Minor: 7
Prokofiev 1: 7
Prokofiev 3: 10
Barber: Never heard it, don't want to
Saint-Saens: Don't waste your time
Bartok 2: 12
Bartok 3: 7
Schumann: 7
Grieg: Don't waste your time (4)
Liszt 1: 8
Liszt 2: 8
Totentanz: 7
Brahms 1: 9
Brahms 2: 10
Rachmaninoff 1: 8
Rachmaninoff 2: 8
Rachmaninoff 3: 11
Tchaikovsky: 10
Mendelssohn G Minor: 5
Mendelssohn D (Minor I think it is): Never heard it
Mozart D Minor (20): 5

Just an opinion...

[lenny]

''Saint-Saens: Don't waste your time
Grieg: Don't waste your time (4)''

 

[Goldberg]

Ahhhh, why not? I've got lots of time, sad as it is:

Beethoven no 1: 4
Beethoven no 2: 4
Beethoven no 4: 7
Beethoven no 5: 6
Chopin no 1: 7
Chopin no 2: 6
Prokofiev 1st: 7
Prokofiev 3rd: 9
Barber 1st: 9
Saint-seans 2nd: 6
Saint-seans 4th: 6
Bartok 2: 10
Bartok 3: 7
Schumann: 6
Grieg a minor: 6
Franck symphony and variations: 5
Liszt 1: 5
Liszt 2: 7
Liszt Totentanz: 6
Brahms 1: 8
Brahms 2: 10
Rachmaninoff 1: 7
Rachmaninoff 2: 8
Rachmaninoff 3: 9
Tchaikovsky 1: 8
Mendelssohn g minor: 6
Mendelssohn d major: 6
Mozart d minor (21?): 7, for its potential musical unclarity.

[Hamfast]

Beethoven no 1: 5
Beethoven no 2: 3
Beethoven no 4: 7
Beethoven no 5: 6
Chopin no 1: 10
Chopin no 2: 10
Prokofiev 1st: 5
Prokofiev 3rd: 7
Barber 1st: 7
Saint-seans 2nd: 8
Saint-seans 4th: 6
Bartok 2: 8
Bartok 3: 6
Schumann: 6
Grieg a minor: 8
Franck symphony and variations: 5
Liszt 1: 6
Liszt 2: 9
Liszt Totentanz: 10
Brahms 1: 7
Brahms 2: 7
Rachmaninoff 1: 5
Rachmaninoff 2: 9
Rachmaninoff 3: 6
Tchaikovsky 1: 9
Mendelssohn g minor: 5
Mendelssohn d major: 6
Mozart d minor (21?): 5

[lenny]

a big what for the rach3 and chopin!

[apion]

when it comes to learning concertos - there is one rule:

you must love it

learning a concerto is such a big commitment, and the only way you can possibly play it sincerely and well is if you truly adore the music

it also makes the process quicker and more fun of course!

This is absolutely the best advice possible.  Which is why you should immediately begin learning the two Brahms concerti.

[lenny]

well my advice still stands - i would make the slight modification:

if you plan to learn several concerti in future - and you love them all - prioritise them based upon your ability.

[mh88]

I really enjoy Schumann's A Minor...especially the first movement.  The second movement is quite good and the third is very fun to play.  It has quite a few technical demands, but overall it's very do-able.  The first movement is my personal fav. of the concerto so I would recommend looking at that.

[apion]

I really enjoy Schumann's A Minor...especially the first movement.  The second movement is quite good and the third is very fun to play.  It has quite a few technical demands, but overall it's very do-able.  The first movement is my personal fav. of the concerto so I would recommend looking at that.

I love the outer movements of the Schumann A Minor, but what's up with the middle movement?  Bland, boring, go-nowhere.  Yuk. 

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I completely disagree with the lists posted (Rach 3 - 6???), but my feeling is, as others have stated, learn the piece that you love the most.

Some time in my lifetime, I hope to learn/perform the Busoni piano concerto. Although I hardly consider it the most beautiful concerto ever written, I certainly feel that it is one of the greatest, specifically the fact that he uses a chorus in the last movement of the piece.

If I were you, I would choose the Schumann, but I have only heard the other a few times. However, to those of you saying 'don't waste your time', when I hear a compositions of yours that is half as good as anything written by S.S., I might consider the chance that you truly know what you're talking about.

[steinwayguy]

Some time in my lifetime, I hope to learn/perform the Busoni piano concerto. Although I hardly consider it the most beautiful concerto ever written, I certainly feel that it is one of the greatest, specifically the fact that he uses a chorus in the last movement of the piece.

Whew. Busoni concerto 

If I were you, I would choose the Schumann, but I have only heard the other a few times. However, to those of you saying 'don't waste your time', when I hear a compositions of yours that is half as good as anything written by S.S., I might consider the chance that you truly know what you're talking about.

Note that I said "just an opinion". Also, if one can't criticize another's work if his/hers isn't as good, could Scriabin not critique Chopin? In my opinion, that is horribly illogical. Besides, Saint-Saens is a bad composer, especially when compared to others on that list.

[lenny]

wrong

[Hamfast]

What are you think about Rachmaninoff 4th g and Ravel G concertos? Especially Michelangeli's performance!

[apion]

What are you think about Rachmaninoff 4th g and Ravel G concertos? Especially Michelangeli's performance!

The Ravel G Major is an excellent, exceptional piece.  And good luck with the finale.

[Hamfast]

 And good luck with the finale.

Oh yes...

[SteinwayTony]

Note that I said "just an opinion". Also, if one can't criticize another's work if his/hers isn't as good, could Scriabin not critique Chopin? In my opinion, that is horribly illogical. Besides, Saint-Saens is a bad composer, especially when compared to others on that list.

What I think LVR is getting at is that your "critique" of the SS and the Grieg were hardly critiques at all. 

Criticism, real criticism at that, at least gives the composer the respect they deserve for being a composer. 

A comment like "don't waste your time" makes it sound like you're choosing a tablecloth for dinner.  And as for the Barber, fine -- don't listen to it.  It's your loss.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Note that I said "just an opinion". Also, if one can't criticize another's work if his/hers isn't as good, could Scriabin not critique Chopin? In my opinion, that is horribly illogical. Besides, Saint-Saens is a bad composer, especially when compared to others on that list.

Fair enough. But why would you say 'don't waste your time'? That is hardly criticism, in my opinion. In order for criticism to be valid, you must have reasons why not to play this piece.

Also your statement about Saint-Saens being a bad composer is pure ignorance. Obviously you have never heard his Organ Symphony. Anybody who could listen to that piece and feel that Saint-Saens is a bad composer is musically immature. You do not need to like any composer's work, however saying that they are "bad" is going too far.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Steinway Tony -

That is amazing! We said the exact same things in our posts! I hadn't read your post when I wrote mine. Haha, that is quite funny! 

[moting]

I like Rachmaninoff paganini Rhapsody,i just played that piece in my last recital:)~~~

[Pianostudy]

I have only played a Hayden[/font][/b][/size] concerto (d major) and Mozart concerto (d minor k 466).  I am also going to complete Franck's Variations Symphoniques. 

I was hoping that you all could name your favorite concertos, rank them by difficulty, and unfortunately I can only play one movement with the orchestra, so maybe which movement you would recommend?

My teacher has recommended me to the 3rd movement of the Mendelssohn, Beethoven's Emperor, and Shumann.

Please give me your thoughts, I want to listen to as many concertos as possible and want to find something challenging.
[/size][/font]

Ugh...You're a piano performance major and you don't know how to spell HAYDN??

[apion]

I like Rachmaninoff paganini Rhapsody,i just played that piece in my last recital:)~~~

Rach's "Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini" is his greatest masterpiece.  It compensates for all of the flaws found in his 2nd and 3rd piano concertos.
 

[musicsdarkangel]

Ugh...You're a piano performance major and you don't know how to spell HAYDN??

Can you say TYPO?