What is THE hardest piece from the romatic era?

[romanticperiod]

Hello, I am wondering what the hardest piece from the romantic era is (according to you, the person that reads this ofcourse.). Thanks in advance. (sorry for the spelling I am not english)

[visitor]

Wagner , The Ring, 15 hrs , I would not want to sit thru it. , Or have to perform (either In ensemble, conduct it, etc), also it's Wagner , so it's only marginally less turdy than Robert Schumanns output  (piano quintet excluded , that thing is pretty good and a better "concerto" than the cat excrement in A minor that we get subjected to over and over again for some reason )

V

[felixblumenfeld]

I believe that romanticperiod wants to know what other forum members consider the most difficult work, not the hardest to sit through. And just in passing, I wonder about the appropriateness of describing Schumann's piano concerto as has been done.

[themeandvariation]

And just in passing, I wonder about the appropriateness of describing Schumann's piano concerto as has been done.

Folks 'round here go plum giddy at the thought of hating on Schumann. I guess an effigy is needed to justify a compositional style which is almost singularly obsessed with in these parts: the romantic.  And ne'er an opportunity passes without rekindlin' the flame. 
(Can't help but luv this romantic gesture.)
Make sure never to bring up Sorabji, or any other 'modern' - as there is a bonfire.
Even Cage had to endure the characterization (here) of looping 4 bars as modus operandi. The intellectual prowess seems to never end from these sharp shooters.
(Buffalo Bill - a mere blip.)


Hey guys. All good?
Just in fun, of course.

[fftransform]

The Mereaux Etudes are the hardest I'm familiar with; probably there are some totally-unknown pieces that are just unplayable.  There was already a pretty exhaustive Liszt thread on the subject which you can find, and then there's Alkan.

Alkan's music is definitely playable and of fairly high quality (unlike Mereaux, which is not practically playable and rarely good music).  For short pieces there's Le Preux and Comme le Vent.  The Scherzo Focoso and Etude de Bravoure Op. 16 No. 3 are medium-length, and for longer works there is the Solo Concerto and the Trois Grandes Etudes Op. 76.  I'd say those are his toughest, and I think most people would agree with that.

Just bare in mind that the performance standards for Alkan are still very immature and conservative.  There's more to his music than the recordings express atm.  But it's beginning to change after several decades of interest-at-a-distance from the piano community.  There are no 'great' recs of any of those short/medium pieces I mentioned.  As for the other two pieces, look at Hamelin's performances (the Op. 76 was released on Hyperion), but even there the music still isn't fully realized, especially the Op. 76 No. 2 which IMO is his hardest and greatest piece ever.

The Hamelin clocks in at 15:20 (does fewer repeats) but from what I see/hear it's probably supposed to be more like 11-12' if you skip the repeats.  Nobody has put in the full effort on this monster, yet.

Here's the last and most virtuosic movement of the Solo Concerto.  The whole pieces runs about fifty minutes.

[nightwindsonata]

Of the pieces that are frequently performed, that the average pianist is expected to play
 
...

I don't think it gets much harder the Liszt B Minor Sonata. Massive scale, never-ending technical torture, a simply massive demand on the performer's analytical and narrative abilities (I don't think one can simply pass this off as a musical retelling of Faust), and any number of horribly treacherous passages (especially the fugato). Just because every pianist plays it doesn't mean it's not terrifyingly difficult!

Of course, if you get into pieces outside the standard repertoire, some of Alkan's work begins to outshine even Liszt in terms of sheer technical difficulty (ie, Concerto for Solo Piano), but these works are pretty niche, and belong to a special brand of self-torment.

[thalbergmad]

Tausig's Halka Variations have never really been played properly.

Most wisely leave it alone.

Thal

[lelle]

Tausig's Halka Variations have never really been played properly.

Most wisely leave it alone.

Thal

This one?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yes. It would be a serious contender; it is very difficult.

[fftransform]

Of the pieces that are frequently performed, that the average pianist is expected to play
 
...

I don't think it gets much harder the Liszt B Minor Sonata. Massive scale, never-ending technical torture, a simply massive demand on the performer's analytical and narrative abilities (I don't think one can simply pass this off as a musical retelling of Faust), and any number of horribly treacherous passages (especially the fugato). Just because every pianist plays it doesn't mean it's not terrifyingly difficult!

Do you actually play piano at this sort of level?  I really don't see how someone who knows what they're talking about could say the 'fugato' is the hardest part of the Liszt Sonata (or that the Liszt Sonata is even that technical a piece; the Chopin Sonatas are probably harder tbh).  It'd be like saying 25-1 is the hardest Chopin Etude, it's just sooooo unrelated to reality.

[anacrusis]

Of the pieces that are frequently performed, that the average pianist is expected to play
 
...

I don't think it gets much harder the Liszt B Minor Sonata. Massive scale, never-ending technical torture, a simply massive demand on the performer's analytical and narrative abilities (I don't think one can simply pass this off as a musical retelling of Faust), and any number of horribly treacherous passages (especially the fugato). Just because every pianist plays it doesn't mean it's not terrifyingly difficult!

I've played this sonata, and I'd actually say it's fairly "easy" technically, as far as big romantic pieces go. Many of the Chopin Etudes are more difficult, at least for me. Same goes for the Transcendental Etudes. I have performed the sonata but would not want to try to prepare the TE:s or the Etudes for performance at my current skill level.

[f flat minor]

Its the Liszt transcription of Beethoven's 9th symphony, or Alkan's solo piano concerto or Busoni's Fantasia Contrapuntisticca (is Busoni even romantic?)

[cuberdrift]

Probably the Liszt transcription of Beethoven's 9th symphony, according to the 100 hardest piano pieces youtube video.

For the shorter pieces probably Dreyshock's octave arrangement of Chopin's Revolutionary etude, although this was never published. There's a video on youtube of a guy that attempted it.

[fftransform]

... according to the 100 hardest piano pieces youtube video.

Yeah that guy's a moron who doesn't even play piano.  They were clout-begging on da SDC for a while trying to pump their stuff.  Their 'hard modern pieces' playlist is even worse, though; it's literally just a random list of 100 pieces written after 1920.  There are some outright-trivial pieces on it, and many of the actual hardest (yet still known) pieces don't appear anywhere.  He thinks Mists is harder than Evryali and Herma, an opinion so uninformed that it genuinely boggles the mind.  Like, he doesn't even have the knowledge base of someone who's spent some time on a piano *forum*, much less a piano.  I mean, he knows -nothing- about it; missed the hardest Sorabji pieces, the hardest Finnissy pieces, etc.  Every composer he gets it wrong.  He just grabbed random stuff.  What those videos say is meaningless.  Those videos are just the autistic compulsions of a know-nothing, and as this thread evidences they are teaching people wrong.

The Beethoven transcriptions aren't even the hardest stuff by Liszt.  They're just big.  But so is the Hammerklavier, and nobody would say that's harder than even the Don Juan, much less Liszt's most ferocious stuff like the Tarantella de Bravoure/Contrabandista/Grandes Etudes etc.  The only genuinely transcendental technique appears in the last movement, as some left-hand octave passages.  Comparable to the Wanderer or Funerailles tbh.

[chopinlisztfan 6869]

1. Jeux d’eau, Maurice Ravel.
Has beautiful complexity, and requires passion to be played properly.
2. All Liszt pieces.
3. Torrential Etude Chopin
4. Revolutionary Etude Chopin
5. Fantasie Impromptu
6. Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement
7. Winterwind
8. Rach Piano Concerto No. 2
9. Sorabji – Opus clavicembalisticum
10. Pag-Liszt Etudes

[nightwindsonata]

Do you actually play piano at this sort of level?  I really don't see how someone who knows what they're talking about could say the 'fugato' is the hardest part of the Liszt Sonata (or that the Liszt Sonata is even that technical a piece; the Chopin Sonatas are probably harder tbh).  It'd be like saying 25-1 is the hardest Chopin Etude, it's just sooooo unrelated to reality.

I've heard it performed in my studio a number of times (haven't studied it yet). The fugato is the place where memory slips can easily sneak up on one. Of course one could make the argument that the left-hand octaves near the end are more challenging (and I would agree).

[f flat minor]

1. Jeux d’eau, Maurice Ravel.
Has beautiful complexity, and requires passion to be played properly.
2. All Liszt pieces.
3. Torrential Etude Chopin
4. Revolutionary Etude Chopin
5. Fantasie Impromptu
6. Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement
7. Winterwind
8. Rach Piano Concerto No. 2
9. Sorabji – Opus clavicembalisticum
10. Pag-Liszt Etudes

I'm sorry but none of them are close to the hardest. OC is one of the hardest but there are harder pieces by Sorabji himself like Symphonia Claviensis, Sequentia Cyclica, Piano Sonata No.5, a.k.a. Opus Archimagicum (which is by far his hardest piece and the hardest piece ever written) and others' like Barrett-Tract, Ferneyhough's Lemma con Epigram or some Finnissy pieces like the English Country Tunes or Verdi Transcriptions. Ravel's Jeax D'eau is probably at the level of the easier late Beethoven sonatas (nowhere near the Hammerklavier, by the way) and so are Rach 2 (and 3) and all the Chopin Etudes you mentioned. Fantasie Impromptu and Moonlight Sonatas are like early advanced level. By Liszt Paganini Etudes, you probably mean S.140 (S.141 are again early advanced level) which are extremely hard but there are some transcriptions which are still harder and some of the hardest pieces in the romantic era, and to exaggerate, of all time. And you literally mentioned all of Liszt's pieces (?)! You got to be kidding when you say that because the hardest of pieces cover only 2-3% of his music, and the rest are either extremely easy, intermediate or advanced (but nowhere near the hardest). Lastly, Sorabji, Ravel and Beethoven weren't romantic composers. I'm extremely sorry but its true.

Have a great day!

[fftransform]

Just stumbled across this on youtube, have never seen a vid of it before:

[bachmoninoff]

Hello, I am wondering what the hardest piece from the romantic era is (according to you, the person that reads this ofcourse.). Thanks in advance. (sorry for the spelling I am not english)

Hardest
1. Chopin Waltz in a minor (Incredibly difficult musically, although not difficult technically)

(In no particular order)
2. Liszt transcription of Beethoven symphony no. 9

3. Alkan Solo Piano Concerto 

4. Paganini Concerto no. 1

[bwl_13]

Hardest
1. Chopin Waltz in a minor (Incredibly difficult musically, although not difficult technically)

(In no particular order)
2. Liszt transcription of Beethoven symphony no. 9

3. Alkan Solo Piano Concerto 

4. Paganini Concerto no. 1

I think you're the one who resurrected that old difficulty ranking thread surprised by the ranking of some concertos, but you put Chopin A Minor Waltz here? Could you explain what you mean by musicality? I can't imagine what musical difficulties propel this waltz (I'm assuming it's the famous posthumous one) as your surefire #1 most difficult piece of the romantic era.

[bachmoninoff]

I think you're the one who resurrected that old difficulty ranking thread surprised by the ranking of some concertos, but you put Chopin A Minor Waltz here? Could you explain what you mean by musicality? I can't imagine what musical difficulties propel this waltz (I'm assuming it's the famous posthumous one) as your surefire #1 most difficult piece of the romantic era.

Yeah, and Paganini 1 is not a piano piece. I was being sarcastic. Sorry.

In all seriousness though my next few picks are actually really difficult. Both with stamina, technique and musicality

[bwl_13]

Yeah, and Paganini 1 is not a piano piece. I was being sarcastic. Sorry.

In all seriousness though my next few picks are actually really difficult. Both with stamina, technique and musicality

Whoop I missed the Paganini, that was actually funny. To be fair, there are people who have made bold claims like that with the first movement of Beethoven's C# minor sonata for instance being harder than the Chopin etudes combined.

Yeah your other picks are ridiculously challenging. I agree with them being in the conversation for sure.

[krncandi]

Some of the most difficult pieces that i can think of ever in the romantic era are:
Balakirev - Islamey
Schumann- Toccata
Liszt- piano sonata in B minor, Transcendental Etudes, Reminiscences de Don Juan
Scriabin- piano sonata no. 5
Brahms- variations on a theme of Paganini (both books)
Mereaux-etudes
De Schlozer- Etude in A flat no. 2

Happy listening/practicing! :-)

[krncandi]

Oh! And almost all of Alkan's work as well

[krncandi]

1. Jeux d’eau, Maurice Ravel.
Has beautiful complexity, and requires passion to be played properly.
2. All Liszt pieces.
3. Torrential Etude Chopin
4. Revolutionary Etude Chopin
5. Fantasie Impromptu
6. Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement
7. Winterwind
8. Rach Piano Concerto No. 2
9. Sorabji – Opus clavicembalisticum
10. Pag-Liszt Etudes

Sorry but no... almost all the works you've listed are not even close. Also Sorabji and Ravel are not in the romantic nor are their music written in the 19th century romantic style

[tomtomthesecond]

1. Jeux d’eau, Maurice Ravel.
Has beautiful complexity, and requires passion to be played properly.
2. All Liszt pieces.
3. Torrential Etude Chopin
4. Revolutionary Etude Chopin
5. Fantasie Impromptu
6. Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement
7. Winterwind
8. Rach Piano Concerto No. 2
9. Sorabji – Opus clavicembalisticum
10. Pag-Liszt Etudes

I would very strongly disagree with many of these. Of course, I haven't by any means played a lot of these songs and am relatively unfamiliar with some of the more obscure of these as I have just recently looked into more classical songs, but I'll speak on behalf of the songs I am familiar with.

Torrent etude is not what I would consider to be top 3 as, while it is one of the harder Chopin etudes in my opinion, isn't even in the top three, or even five, of the Chopin etudes alone.

Revolutionary is probably one of the most easy Chopin etudes as it focuses almost solely on left hand technique.

Fantasie Impromptu is more manageable compared to a lot of the etudes Chopin made in both op 10 and 25.

Moonlight Sonata MK III isn't even romantic and is comparable difficulty to torrent in my opinion.

Winter wind is also regarded as one of the harder etudes but waterfall, chromatic, octaves, double thirds, and sixths are all harder from what I know.

This isn't to say that these pieces are easy though as this entire repertoire is highly difficult.