Hard Time Deciding on a Beethoven Sonata

[bwl_13]

Hi everyone,

I've been recently (past year or so) been on a huge Beethoven Sonata obsession. It started when I discovered the Schiff lectures and has spiralled into me becoming very familiar with each of the 32. Alas, technical difficulty is something that I'm still working on, since I'd consider myself an early advanced student. At the moment I'm still wrapping up work on the Op. 13, the first movement of which I'm performing in December but I already have it learned and memorized and to about 80% performance level. Within the next 2-3 weeks I should have the third movement at a level I'm happy with and I'll be ready to move on (keeping the first movement until my performance). I've now reached a dilemma, because the Op. 13 has been a sonata I've wanted to play since I've started to take piano seriously, and it has always seemed insurmountable, but I ended up overcoming it far earlier than I'd have expected. I want to begin sight reading and just dipping my toes into my next sonata, but I've no idea where to go from here. Before you say it, yes I will be talking to my teacher to see what she thinks, but I am also interested in what everybody else has to say. I've narrowed my choices down to a few sonatas that are from what I hear comparable to Op 13:
Op. 26, Op. 27 No. 2, Op. 28, Op. 90 (Who knows, there is no concrete census on this sonata)

Op. 13 is probably the most substantial work I've taken on, although I am technically working on Chopin Op. 10 No. 1, it is more slow practice to eventually work it up and get started early on it. I'm also working on the Op. 90 No. 2 Schubert which isn't too bad as well as a few other shorter and easier pieces.

The purpose of this thread is mostly so I can discuss with other pianists who adore the sonatas. I hope to one day play Op. 109 and 101, which are my favourites. Anyway, I'm new to the forum so I hope to meet some of you here!

[fftransform]

Op. 101 is one of the best, very underrated.  Hope you've heard the Sokolov, lots of interesting ideas.  I think it's the most underrated, definitely prefer it over 89 or 110.

Not the cleanest, but his famous perf is down from youtube atm it seems.  You still get the interp tho.  Anyway, you can probably go straight for the Tempest if you want.  I wouldn't try Op. 90 yet if I were you.

[brogers70]

Opus 26 and Opus 28 are both great. Opus 26 was apparently Chopin's favorite. The very first one, Opus 2 number 1 is also great - Beethoven was Beethoven right from the start..

[bwl_13]

Exactly! I love the sonata, it's so well connected and mysterious (as much of his late period is). I haven't actually heard this recording before so I will have to check it out. Thanks a lot!

Anyway, you can probably go straight for the Tempest if you want.  I wouldn't try Op. 90 yet if I were you.

Really? I personally have heard and sight read the Tempest and it didn't seem far too bad (definitely more difficult than the Op. 13), but I've seen many people call it one of the most difficult Beethoven sonatas. It's something that's on my list though. Which movement would you say is the hardest?

[bwl_13]

brogers70, I have heard of Chopin's opinion and as great of a musician as he is I strongly disagree. I really like a lot of Op. 26, but the Scherzo isn't something I'm all that drawn to. I also weirdly don't love the funeral march movement, perhaps it's been performed so many times at a painfully slow tempo. I feel the same thing but more about Op. 2 No. 1, first and fourth movements are great, middle two I really don't care for at all. I may return to Op. 2 No. 1 at some point if I change my mind on the middle movements, but for now I think I want to play one of the larger sonatas.

[visitor]

I've played two of the three kurfürsten sonatas from woO 47, the second is a really nice dramatic work first mov especially but the whole thing is short and nice and would give you a chance to prepare it to a very high level

1:04:13

Gilels is a wizard

[nightwindsonata]

Op. 101 is one of the best, very underrated.  Hope you've heard the Sokolov, lots of interesting ideas.  I think it's the most underrated, definitely prefer it over 89 or 110.

Not the cleanest, but his famous perf is down from youtube atm it seems.  You still get the interp tho.  Anyway, you can probably go straight for the Tempest if you want.  I wouldn't try Op. 90 yet if I were you.

Op. 101 is a great piece but it's probably the toughest Sonata for the sheer awkwardness of some passages (at least according to a few of the piano professors I've talked to). Dr. Joseph Banowetz once told me in a conversation that "if you were a child, you played Op. 109 or 110; if you were a man, you played Op. 111 or Op. 106, and if you were suicidal you played Op. 101."

Check out Op. 78. The second movement is a bit tricky, but the whole Sonata is very beautiful and extremely underplayed. The Op. 31 No. 2 is fairly doable I think, the last movement is once again very hard but that is par for the course with Beethoven Sonatas. Ultimately, the most important thing to consider with Beethoven Sonatas is their orchestral nature. Many of them function as sketches for his later symphonies (at least), the most obvious one being the connection between the Op. 26 and the funeral march from the Eroica symphony, though I am planning to investigate this in more depth in my master's thesis (is the first movement of Op. 31 No. 2 a test run for the first movement of the famous 5th symphony, a self-challenge to see just how unifying a motive to be within a piece?). 

[anacrusis]

Of the ones mentioned in the OP - op. 26, 27 no. 2, 28 and 90, I'd say op 26 and op 28 are the "easiest" (they're not easy, though). The third movement of op 27 no. 2 requires a fairly developed technique to play (you could play the first two movements without problems, though). I would have recommended Op 90, because it's fairly managable overall, if it weren't for those Alberti basses in tenths in the second theme - they'll be quite a challenge unless your technique has reached a certain level.

[bwl_13]

Op. 101 is a great piece but it's probably the toughest Sonata for the sheer awkwardness of some passages (at least according to a few of the piano professors I've talked to). Dr. Joseph Banowetz once told me in a conversation that "if you were a child, you played Op. 109 or 110; if you were a man, you played Op. 111 or Op. 106, and if you were suicidal you played Op. 101."

Check out Op. 78. The second movement is a bit tricky, but the whole Sonata is very beautiful and extremely underplayed. The Op. 31 No. 2 is fairly doable I think, the last movement is once again very hard but that is par for the course with Beethoven Sonatas. Ultimately, the most important thing to consider with Beethoven Sonatas is their orchestral nature. Many of them function as sketches for his later symphonies (at least), the most obvious one being the connection between the Op. 26 and the funeral march from the Eroica symphony, though I am planning to investigate this in more depth in my master's thesis (is the first movement of Op. 31 No. 2 a test run for the first movement of the famous 5th symphony, a self-challenge to see just how unifying a motive to be within a piece?).

Op. 101 is a gem and I forget it's underperformed. I have briefly sight read just the opening bars of the first movement for fun and even that is extremely unintuitive. I can only imagine how difficult the second and fourth movements are.

I really do love the first movement of Op. 78, the second not as much although it is hilarious. However Op. 31 No. 2 is something I've been longing to play for a while. You guys are getting me excited just thinking about it. I'll have to see what my teacher says about that one.

Also, I'd really love to read your masters thesis once it's complete! I have always thought of the sonatas as early sketches of what he did in his later chamber and symphonic works (but they are no less for that, I consider the sonatas to be some of his most touching music). I think what I love most about the Beethoven sonatas is how orchestral they are, which is something I don't really hear as much in other composers. I give Chopin a pass partially because he's a favourite but also because he wrote so clearly for the piano and used the unique qualities of it to his advantage. Anyway, this quality in Beethoven is one of the many reason his sonatas are perhaps my favourite works to play on piano, I've played 4 to date and I want to work my way through my favourites (even though all of them are great).

[bwl_13]

Of the ones mentioned in the OP - op. 26, 27 no. 2, 28 and 90, I'd say op 26 and op 28 are the "easiest" (they're not easy, though). The third movement of op 27 no. 2 requires a fairly developed technique to play (you could play the first two movements without problems, though). I would have recommended Op 90, because it's fairly managable overall, if it weren't for those Alberti basses in tenths in the second theme - they'll be quite a challenge unless your technique has reached a certain level.

Of course no Beethoven sonata is "easy". I find the ones I've played to be quite manageable to get under the fingers but shaping and molding them is a sign of mastery. Op. 26 and 28 are great, they just both have middle movements that I find are outshined by the outer ones (my mind changes on the funeral march every day though so don't quote me on that). Op. 27 No. 2 also has this issue for me because I find the third movement just blows everything else out of the water, but only if performed well. It's so easy to hear muddy performances of it that I've been uncertain about this sonata for a while. Op. 90 is definitely my favourite out of the group but I don't want to attempt it to early. I also am quite aware of those alberti patterns and I know I'm not yet able to play something like that up to a performance tempo. The technique in the Op. 27 No. 2 is something I think would be challenging, but not impossible for me. I'm curious about your thoughts on what people have been saying about the Op. 31 No. 2. How do you think the last movement of 27/2 compares to any of the movements in 31/2? I'm obviously going to go to my teacher after this discussion to see what her thoughts are on all this, but I'd love to get more input. Thanks!

[visitor]

If you widen the search a bit to may find many of the boxes sonatas tick of are also checked by op 77 in g minor , it's awesome

[bwl_13]

If you widen the search a bit to may find many of the boxes sonatas tick of are also checked by op 77 in g minor , it's awesome

Thanks for the recommendation! I haven't heard that piece before. I'm kind of hoping to play a sonata because that's kind of been what I've been digging into recently and the music that's most inspiring to me. I'll listen to this a few more times and see though, thanks!

[nightwindsonata]

Of course no Beethoven sonata is "easy". I find the ones I've played to be quite manageable to get under the fingers but shaping and molding them is a sign of mastery. Op. 26 and 28 are great, they just both have middle movements that I find are outshined by the outer ones (my mind changes on the funeral march every day though so don't quote me on that). Op. 27 No. 2 also has this issue for me because I find the third movement just blows everything else out of the water, but only if performed well. It's so easy to hear muddy performances of it that I've been uncertain about this sonata for a while. Op. 90 is definitely my favourite out of the group but I don't want to attempt it to early. I also am quite aware of those alberti patterns and I know I'm not yet able to play something like that up to a performance tempo. The technique in the Op. 27 No. 2 is something I think would be challenging, but not impossible for me. I'm curious about your thoughts on what people have been saying about the Op. 31 No. 2. How do you think the last movement of 27/2 compares to any of the movements in 31/2? I'm obviously going to go to my teacher after this discussion to see what her thoughts are on all this, but I'd love to get more input. Thanks!

I think that the Op. 27 No. 2 is all around much more doable than the Op. 31 No. 2. Even though the arpeggios at the start of the third movement are tough (and there are other tricky passages throughout), it's really quite manageable once you get a feel for it and do some slow, metronome practice. The third movement of Op. 31 No. 2 is hard to pull off for the sole reason that it never stops, and the motion and tempo has to be exactly right--not too fast so as to mess up or turn it into a monstrous mess, neither too slow so as to lose the hyper-measure and become ponderous. Even at first reading, it is very hard to get into, because it is so large-scale in its melody. I will likely be playing the Op. 31 No. 2 myself this spring after I finish my recital with Op. 31 No. 3.

[fftransform]

Oh yeah, RE 'widening the search' into variations, ofc the Eroica are true virtuoso stuff but the C Minor Variations are doable.  From a technical perspective I think you'll find them challenging, but each one is so small and calls on such a narrow bit of technique that it's a really easy piece to study.  Might actually even help you with your tech, and again very underplayed.  Will defo help you develop all sorts of 'Beethoven sounds' tho.

Really? I personally have heard and sight read the Tempest and it didn't seem far too bad (definitely more difficult than the Op. 13), but I've seen many people call it one of the most difficult Beethoven sonatas.

It's athletic, especially if you have small wrists it'll test your stamina.  Getting a nice, springy sound in the 1st movement is tedious and takes concentration.  Those are the two things that I hear the most complaining about, I think the 3rd movement is pretty pianistic except maybe a couple spots with the broken octaves.  But if your hands run on the bigger side (i.e. your 10ths are over the keyboard) then technically it should be accessible.

[bwl_13]

I think that the Op. 27 No. 2 is all around much more doable than the Op. 31 No. 2. Even though the arpeggios at the start of the third movement are tough (and there are other tricky passages throughout), it's really quite manageable once you get a feel for it and do some slow, metronome practice. The third movement of Op. 31 No. 2 is hard to pull off for the sole reason that it never stops, and the motion and tempo has to be exactly right--not too fast so as to mess up or turn it into a monstrous mess, neither too slow so as to lose the hyper-measure and become ponderous. Even at first reading, it is very hard to get into, because it is so large-scale in its melody. I will likely be playing the Op. 31 No. 2 myself this spring after I finish my recital with Op. 31 No. 3.

Thanks a lot this is very helpful for breaking down the areas to look out for. I'm beginning to really consider it because I know I'll be motivated to play it. Op. 27 No. 2 only really has one movement that inspires me, which is the third, but even then it doesn't inspire me as much as any of the 31/2 movements. Again, thanks a lot for your help

[kc_gracie]

Hello.

I remember learning Op.13 when I was younger. It was definitely the hardest piece by far I had learned up to that point and was a real turning point for my interests in the piano. I was starting to wane on my interest before that, and learning this piece, particularly the first movement, changed my perspective. I was then obsessed and Beethoven, as a result, has become my favorite composer and the most special music for me to play.

For next sonatas, I feel like a number that you have listed are great to consider. I think, ultimately, your interests and inspirations will play a big part. Being motivated to learn a piece is very important and will come out in your play as you tackle the piece. That said, if you start a piece and it is too hard, you can always abandon for a future time. Hopefully you can take away from what you did learn in the meantime.

I am a fan of Op.31 No.2. This is one of my favorite sonatas and the third movement is one of my favorite out of everything Beethoven wrote. I would say that learning the first two movement should suit you well and by time you reach the third, along with the skill you will be learning with other pieces you are tackling, you should hopefully be ready. The hardest part of the last movement, as mentioned, is that it doesn't stop moving. However, I think if you put in the time and effort and have motivation to learn this piece, then for sure give it a shot. If it is too hard, pick it up later. But I will say playing this sonata if very rewarding (a least for me).

I also think the 32 variations in C minor are fantastic. There are very hard sections, but overall, I personally think it is easier to manage than the last movement of the Tempest.

Of the others you mentioned, I also think Op.28 would be a good one to consider.

Anyways, good luck on picking and hopefully your teacher can give you some aid as well. I think if you really enjoy the Tempest, why not give the first movement a shot and see how it goes.

-KC

[bwl_13]

Hello.

I remember learning Op.13 when I was younger. It was definitely the hardest piece by far I had learned up to that point and was a real turning point for my interests in the piano. I was starting to wane on my interest before that, and learning this piece, particularly the first movement, changed my perspective. I was then obsessed and Beethoven, as a result, has become my favorite composer and the most special music for me to play.

For next sonatas, I feel like a number that you have listed are great to consider. I think, ultimately, your interests and inspirations will play a big part. Being motivated to learn a piece is very important and will come out in your play as you tackle the piece. That said, if you start a piece and it is too hard, you can always abandon for a future time. Hopefully you can take away from what you did learn in the meantime.

I am a fan of Op.31 No.2. This is one of my favorite sonatas and the third movement is one of my favorite out of everything Beethoven wrote. I would say that learning the first two movement should suit you well and by time you reach the third, along with the skill you will be learning with other pieces you are tackling, you should hopefully be ready. The hardest part of the last movement, as mentioned, is that it doesn't stop moving. However, I think if you put in the time and effort and have motivation to learn this piece, then for sure give it a shot. If it is too hard, pick it up later. But I will say playing this sonata if very rewarding (a least for me).

I also think the 32 variations in C minor are fantastic. There are very hard sections, but overall, I personally think it is easier to manage than the last movement of the Tempest.

Of the others you mentioned, I also think Op.28 would be a good one to consider.

Anyways, good luck on picking and hopefully your teacher can give you some aid as well. I think if you really enjoy the Tempest, why not give the first movement a shot and see how it goes.

-KC

Thanks so much for this kind response! I find myself relating quite a bit to what you describe yourself going through learning Op. 13. I am really drawn to Op. 31 No. 2 and I think I'm going to give it a go. My teacher suggested I try it as well! I messed around with the first few measures of the first movement and although the two note slurs are challenging they aren't impossible. I have a virtual performance on the 18th of the Op. 13 but after that I'll be getting properly started on the Tempest. I really appreciate and I'm extremely excited to continue with my studying of the Beethoven sonatas and piano in general!

[lelle]

Thanks so much for this kind response! I find myself relating quite a bit to what you describe yourself going through learning Op. 13. I am really drawn to Op. 31 No. 2 and I think I'm going to give it a go. My teacher suggested I try it as well! I messed around with the first few measures of the first movement and although the two note slurs are challenging they aren't impossible. I have a virtual performance on the 18th of the Op. 13 but after that I'll be getting properly started on the Tempest. I really appreciate and I'm extremely excited to continue with my studying of the Beethoven sonatas and piano in general!

I don't think the third movement of the Tempest sonata is super hard technically, I don't know what some people are talking about here. The trickiest parts, for me, are in the first movement, and a section with quick left hand figurations in the second movement. The third movement is fairly straight forward except for a few spots that might feel a bit trickier until you get the hang of them.

[bwl_13]

I don't think the third movement of the Tempest sonata is super hard technically, I don't know what some people are talking about here. The trickiest parts, for me, are in the first movement, and a section with quick left hand figurations in the second movement. The third movement is fairly straight forward except for a few spots that might feel a bit trickier until you get the hang of them.

The results seem extremely mixed with that movement. I've heard people argue that it's pretty straight forward, and others who consider it to be extremely difficult. It doesn't seem way too imposing to me, but I'm sure the modulations in the development will be difficult to memorize and the character of the piece seems difficult to bring to life. It also looks like there's a lot of awkward jumps in certain sections, but I won't really know until I properly study it

[kc_gracie]

I'm glad your teacher is on board. I wish you the best of luck with this sonata.

And just to clarify a bit. I don't think any particular part of the sonata will necessarily be extremely difficulty. I do take the point that the first movement has some much trickier sections and so forth, and certainly there is a point in the second movement that is much more difficult to the slow pace of the rest of that movement. I also agree that the 3rd movement doesn't really have any over the top difficult sections either. In my opinion and for me when I learned it, the third movement just presented, overall, more of a challenge in regards to the constant motion within the movement. For me it just took more focus than anything, and if you keep tension in your hands, it can certainly be a struggle to play well. Nothing more and nothing less. That is all. I also found the third movement the easiest to memorize of the sonata.

Best of luck with the sonata and I hope it goes well.

-KC

[danpiano37]

Great question, as you've discovered, all the Beethoven sonatas are awesome and each one can be treated like a study that you'll get so much out of.
I've also got right into them this year (though I had played a few before). So many of the other sonatas mentioned would be fantastic, so I won't mention them here. But here's a few different options:

Op 49 nos 1 and 2: These are often overlooked or even looked down upon as being "easy", but they're only easy compared with other Beethoven sonatas (which, as mentioned in an earlier reply, are not easy at all) and to play them both up to speed, with good ornamentation and good musicality is a great goal. They are also super fun to play. There are some sonatas I like to play and some I like to listen to, these are two I love to play. A great place to start, even if you've already played one or two others.

Op 14 nos 1 and 2: These are both fun to listen to and fun to play, and a great natural step after the op 49.

Op 22 in Bb major: This is a beast! One of the sonatas I learned this year, and I really underestimated it. So much in this one, and not a dull or uninteresting moment. Also very technically challenging.

Good luck with your choice!

[bwl_13]

Great question, as you've discovered, all the Beethoven sonatas are awesome and each one can be treated like a study that you'll get so much out of.
I've also got right into them this year (though I had played a few before). So many of the other sonatas mentioned would be fantastic, so I won't mention them here. But here's a few different options:

Op 49 nos 1 and 2: These are often overlooked or even looked down upon as being "easy", but they're only easy compared with other Beethoven sonatas (which, as mentioned in an earlier reply, are not easy at all) and to play them both up to speed, with good ornamentation and good musicality is a great goal. They are also super fun to play. There are some sonatas I like to play and some I like to listen to, these are two I love to play. A great place to start, even if you've already played one or two others.

Op 14 nos 1 and 2: These are both fun to listen to and fun to play, and a great natural step after the op 49.

Op 22 in Bb major: This is a beast! One of the sonatas I learned this year, and I really underestimated it. So much in this one, and not a dull or uninteresting moment. Also very technically challenging.

Good luck with your choice!

Thanks for your response!

I've been sight reading portions of Op. 49 and 14 for a bit now in order to just have some fresh music to enjoy, and I've studied Op. 14 No. 2 in depth this year. I like your suggestion of Op. 22, it's a very overlooked sonata and a hidden gem. I particularly like what Schiff says about the work and how it's a great piece to study before the gigantic Op. 106.

[lelle]

The Op 22 sonata is a real beast, really difficult in many ways.

[fretlesss]

Let me add my bit: I would really suggest that you examine one the following 2 early sonatas: Op2. No.1 and Op. 10 No.1. I believe it is essential to learn f-moll sonata for the following reasons: control of the sonata form (it's one the best sonatas ever written in regards to form); 1st movement has mood changes in every few bars and is a real challenge to interpret properly due to sheer velocity of the emotional state changes; 4th movement is great for concert (sheer drama) and will give you a lot of trouble to master the left hand broken chords at prestissimo and alla breve. Op.10, No. 1 - look at 3rd movement, it is a gem and a great preparation for interpretation challenges of Op.31 No. 2. I also agree with others that Op.22 is a great piece for developing/showcasing your virtuosity and a great preparation for later sonatas.

[f flat minor]

Opus 26 and Opus 28 are both great. Opus 26 was apparently Chopin's favorite. The very first one, Opus 2 number 1 is also great - Beethoven was Beethoven right from the start..

He was equally inspired by Op.111 to write his revolutionary etude

[lelle]

Let me add my bit: I would really suggest that you examine one the following 2 early sonatas: Op2. No.1 and Op. 10 No.1. I believe it is essential to learn f-moll sonata for the following reasons: control of the sonata form (it's one the best sonatas ever written in regards to form); 1st movement has mood changes in every few bars and is a real challenge to interpret properly due to sheer velocity of the emotional state changes; 4th movement is great for concert (sheer drama) and will give you a lot of trouble to master the left hand broken chords at prestissimo and alla breve. Op.10, No. 1 - look at 3rd movement, it is a gem and a great preparation for interpretation challenges of Op.31 No. 2. I also agree with others that Op.22 is a great piece for developing/showcasing your virtuosity and a great preparation for later sonatas.

I agree that the Op 2 no 1 sonata is great. He really started off his sonata career with a bang. It's like, "Hello, I'm Beethoven, and I'm here to innovate and blow your socks off, look what I can do!"

[fretlesss]

I agree that the Op 2 no 1 sonata is great. He really started off his sonata career with a bang. It's like, "Hello, I'm Beethoven, and I'm here to innovate and blow your socks off, look what I can do!"

Hear, hear! in fact, the entire Op.2 is spectacular. But I wouldn't advise to tackle A-dur and C-dur sonatas (at least, not the first and last movements) before you can play Op.22. Maybe it is just a personal preference, but for me Op.22 was more approachable and versatile at the same time (concerto-like bits in 1st part, trouble of wielding the form in 2nd, minore in 3rd, "Mozartean" quality of the 4th when it feels like there is only one way to play it right).

[anacrusis]

Hear, hear! in fact, the entire Op.2 is spectacular. But I wouldn't advise to tackle A-dur and C-dur sonatas (at least, not the first and last movements) before you can play Op.22. Maybe it is just a personal preference, but for me Op.22 was more approachable and versatile at the same time (concerto-like bits in 1st part, trouble of wielding the form in 2nd, minore in 3rd, "Mozartean" quality of the 4th when it feels like there is only one way to play it right).

Out of the three sonatas op 2, I'd say the one in A major is the most technically challenging and difficult to play well.

[bwl_13]

*Update*
Thanks everyone for your input. I have had to put my sonata progress on somewhat of a pause as I'm preparing for an audition at the moment in early March. However, I couldn't resist getting started on Op. 31/2. In about 3 weeks I've got the 1st movement at a fluid performance tempo, although there are many musical kinks to work out. Considering I only worked on it at the very end of my practice sessions I'm very happy about this! I'm thinking I'll learn the rest of Op. 31/2 and then move on to Op. 90 before tackling Op. 53, at least that's my current plan. I wouldn't mind getting some feedback on that either, even if I know that's still a bare minimum of 6-8 months away.

[lelle]

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me! I'd say that overall Op 90 is less challenging, atleast technically, than Op 31 no 2