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Topic: Finger Exercises  (Read 3845 times)

Offline leigh anne

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Finger Exercises
on: July 08, 2022, 03:27:28 PM
Hey guys, I'm back!! With another question. The last few days I have been commenting in people's posts, giving advice and stuff but now I played certain pieces and man, my fingers are slow! You know that feeling, when your brain knows exactly what to do but your hand is playing slow and can't keep up. So that leaves me jumbled up on playing. I tried slowing down my pacing and I tried this for weeks but failed. I tried slower, with a slow motioned record, and then making it faster and faster until I have the right pacing but no matter how long I practise I cannot play that very well unless I play it slow. Does anybody know finger exercises to train my fingers to get faster? I got books by czerny but it doesn't seem to work. I searched online but I only found the 'Neighbors' exercise and the 'Pivot' which doesn't work for my hand. I have been looking so long for finger exercises but I cannot find the right one. The one that will work for me. Do you guys have any suggestions on where to find what I am looking for? Thank you very much.

- Leigh
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"
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Online brogers70

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #1 on: July 08, 2022, 04:51:45 PM
I've gotten a lot of good suggestions from Josh Wright's youtube videos. I'll link to one for a start, but if you just keep looking around his videos you'll find more. His advice for faster scales helped me quite a bit.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #2 on: July 08, 2022, 06:13:29 PM
A better question would generate from posting some bars of music that you struggle to play at a tempo you desire, then people can offer you some ideas how to work on it and you can offer feedback.
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Offline nadapez

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #3 on: August 22, 2022, 03:23:53 PM
One of the most important exercise is to play stacatto, which you can apply to any piece you are dealing with and to scales (scales studies)

I use to alternate between stacatto and legato/portato playing, using the same speed for both and slowly incrementing that speed.

You will notice that in stacatto you cannot play so fast as in legato/portato; if you play  legato fastest than you can stacatto, probaly you are playing bad and missexercising.

Only once you achieve the maximal speed in stacatto, go beyond that speed in legato/portato.

Offline lelle

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #4 on: August 22, 2022, 09:36:44 PM
One of the most important exercise is to play stacatto, which you can apply to any piece you are dealing with and to scales (scales studies)

I use to alternate between stacatto and legato/portato playing, using the same speed for both and slowly incrementing that speed.

You will notice that in stacatto you cannot play so fast as in legato/portato; if you play  legato fastest than you can stacatto, probaly you are playing bad and missexercising.

Only once you achieve the maximal speed in stacatto, go beyond that speed in legato/portato.

I don't quiter understand your post. It sounds like you are both saying that if you can play legato faster than staccato you are practicing wrong, but then you also say that you should go beyond the speed you can play staccato when you play legato. Can you clarify?

Offline nadapez

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #5 on: August 24, 2022, 12:37:15 PM
I don't quiter understand your post. It sounds like you are both saying that if you can play legato faster than staccato you are practicing wrong, but then you also say that you should go beyond the speed you can play staccato when you play legato. Can you clarify?

Yes, sorry, my reply was not clear.

The stacato touch with fast notes is performed mainly with the movements and strength of the fingers, so practicing stacato develop strength and independence for the fingers, which is good for acquire speed and also clarity.

Conversely, the legato touch is performed with a movement of the whole arm and hand plus the movement of the fingers, meaning the hand help the fingers.

Practicing legato develop good hand technique, relaxation and phrasing but no too much the fingers. It is a a very good exercise to do it slow.

The problem of legato with high speed is that if the fingers are not ready to that speed then one tends to compensate the dumbness of the fingers using too much the help of the hand and arm producing lack of clarity in sound, meaning one key is pressed before the preceding key has been released and or some notes can loose intensity.

So I would combine playing stacato at a comfortable speed, legato at the same speed, and even legato at slower speeds.

Only once mastered that I would approach playing the whole thing, legato at full speed, but paying attention to not loose too much clarity in the sound.

 ;)

Offline comma

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #6 on: August 27, 2022, 07:08:42 AM
In his book "Technique of Piano Playing" the Hungarian pianist Jozsef Gat recommends lateral movements of every single finger until the muscles between the metacarpal bones get tired (he calls them "speed muscles"). I personally haven't got much benefit from that, because for me speed problems are always brain problems  ;). Anyhow, perhaps you want to try.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #7 on: August 27, 2022, 08:58:21 AM
… for me speed problems are always brain problems  ;)

Second this! I think Josef Hofmann in his book on piano playing also said along these lines. I don't remember the quote exactly but it was something like "to play quickly you must learn to think quickly".

Offline ranjit

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #8 on: August 28, 2022, 08:26:17 AM
I would suggest parallel sets as a way to learn to think quickly.

Offline lelle

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #9 on: August 31, 2022, 02:02:21 PM
I would suggest parallel sets as a way to learn to think quickly.

Can you expand on what parallel sets are?

Offline cyclistpianist

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #10 on: September 01, 2022, 01:18:26 AM
I started piano at age 15, had very stiff hands, and always had a problem with fast tempi, despite exercises by Hanon, Czerny, Schmitt, Pischna, Joseffy, Tausig, Liszt, Brahms 51 Exercises, work on various Chopin etudes, and collections of exercises:  Claudette Sorel's Compendium, and Alberto Jonas' multi-volume series on piano technique, consisting of original exercises, excerpts from the piano literature and exercises contributed by great pianists of his time; e.g., Moritz Rosenthal; Leopold Godowsky.  Slow, steady improvement in dexterity, control, and velocity, but fast tempi remained a challenge.  About 10 years ago I saw a finger exerciser in a music store, designed for guitarists, for $15 - $20. 
Spring tension adjustable for each finger; used max tension on 2 and 3, minimum on 4 and 5 to start.  Was careful not to overdue it, didn't want to risk carpal tunnel syndrome or other injury.  RH, about 20 reps per finger to start, LH no more than 15.  Could do each hand in 2 or 3 minutes.  Always started with 4th finger, because its muscles are attached to 3 and 5, then 2, 3 and 5 in that order.  Gradually increased Reps, 30 RH, 20LH; later 40 RH, 30LH, and so on.  Now, I'll do 60-80 Reps RH, 50-60 LH; 4 and 5 are no longer on minimal tension, but the increase in tension was small. 
     The benefits I noticed were that as the muscles that control the fingers became stronger, 1) tone improved, 2) More variety and control of touch, 3) more accuracy; stronger muscles = more control/accuracy, 4) less waste motion in the hands; my LH fingers used to flail about somewhat; no longer.  5)  For the past few years I've been able to make good progress in challenging music:  Schumann's Kreisleriana; Liszt Sonata; recently Bach's Goldberg Variations reveal my LH still has a ways to go to be equal in speed and fluidity to the RH; practicing slowly and minimizing extraneous finger movements so the fingers stay close to the keys gets results.  For technical workouts from the literature, consider Chopin's 3rd Scherzo; the descending arpeggios are a particular LH challenge to play fast and fluidly; the 4th movement of Chopin's 2nd sonata, and various Chopin Etudes have challenging passagework; have spent a lot of time on op. 10 nos. 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 12; especially 2 and 4 and op. 25 nos. 1,2, 6-12.  The etudes in 3rds/6ths/octaves (op. 25, nos. 6, 8, and 10) will pay dividends over time if practiced periodically.  op. 25 No. 11 will help finger speed ... but patience may be required.  For LH, Rachmaninoff's Moment Musical op. 16 no. 4 is a great workout.  The Liszt Transcendental Etude "Feux Follets" has many technically demanding passages that are good drills for increasing speed and coordination in both hands.  I'll sometimes just use certain passages as an exercise, if do not intend to learn the entire piece, e.g., Feux Follets; it was way over my technical abilities when I first worked on it, and remains a challenge.  I still have a long ways to go as a pianist; making "good progress" is not
mastery, not even close, but it's a passion and I keep at it.  I hope some of this info is helpful and/or encouraging to other piano lovers.             
 

Offline ranjit

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #11 on: September 01, 2022, 03:20:36 AM
Can you expand on what parallel sets are?
Essentially, rolling notes under one hand position very fast.

Offline morrisjd

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #12 on: September 05, 2022, 03:40:29 PM
If the piano piece has a bass line (or treble) that consists of a long string of notes of the same value or repeating sequence of values, you can speed up the passage using the following method.  Assume that the line of notes is of the same value (say 16ths or 32nds).  Play the string using a set of varied rhythm patterns.  These are the ones I use:
1)  Breaking the string into consecutive tuples, play the tuples in 16th and 32nd pairs for the string. 
2)  Play the tuples as alternate 32nd and 16ths. 
3)  Breaking the string into quadruplets, play each quadruplet as a triplet and a 16th in a 4 note repeating pattern (Beethoven's 5th motif). 
4)  Play the 16th followed by a triplet in a 4 note repeating quadruplet (Beethoven in reverse). 
5)  Play 16th, then two 32nds and a 16th in a four note quadruplet repeating pattern. 
6)  Break the string into triplets and play the string in a repeating pattern of triplets.  This may not be possible rhythmically for certain string patterns.  But the triplet mode is good at training the brain to handle a different rhythm.
These exercises work well for Chopin etudes such as the Revolutionary (Op. 10 No. 2), where the base line consists of modified arpeggios, scales, rolling triplets, etc.  Also the (Op. 25 No. 12) Ocean Etude consisting of arpeggios played in unison with both hands.
You can also use these exercises to restore the quality of a piece you can play at tempo but over time has become sloppy.

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #13 on: September 08, 2022, 09:44:57 AM
Practising slowly does not work? That is usually what solves the problems for me.

You could try out Liszt's Technical Exercises book. They're pretty *** intense. Just don't strain your hands too much.

Ultimately you need to find a way to improve that is enjoyable for you as that's what will keep you motivated I suppose.

Online brogers70

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #14 on: September 08, 2022, 10:45:13 AM
Practising slowly does not work? That is usually what solves the problems for me.

Sure, practicing slowly is absolutely necessary. For me, though, once I know the notes and have some idea how to move, just gradually ramping up the speed does not work as well or as fast as doing some of the rhythms that several posters have suggested. They give you a chance to play short bits at high speed and then relax without stopping completely. For me it makes it easier to focus on exactly whats happening physically and what sounds I'm making during a short burst of speed. And psychologically I find I'm less likely to tune out doing the rhythms than if I'm just repeating a passage over and over at gradually increasing speed.

Offline douweziel

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #15 on: September 14, 2022, 02:47:36 PM
Firstly, sorry to bombard you with information, but this is the only answer that leads to durable results. Unless you're already doing most of the right movements (and there's no way I'd know), there is no quick fix, so I'll sum up some (but far from all) key ones.

Even though I shouldn't be, I'm still rather surprised by the lack of explanation of, and straight up wrong advice about actual muscle usage. Luckily I've had a year of university physiology courses and four years of conservatory Alexander technique that literally catapulted my piano playing over a year so allow me to explain.

[Much of the following is also based on and used in research-based (piano) schools like Ortmann, Matthay, Taubman, Lister-Sink, Deahl and Wristen and more]

Why your fingers don't work
Relative to the initial piano key tension and its weight, our finger muscles are weak. And they will be weak because they have very limited capacity for strength because of your small hand bones. Therefore, any exercise that is not in itself a musical piece (like Chopin's and most of Liszt's are), are only useful to isolate and practice specific movements. NOT to strengthen (or worse, isolate) the fingers. Save yourself tremendous amounts of pain and wasted time!

Using only fingers to play over- and or misuses their weak muscles, which will lead to fatigue and slowness.
On the other hand, fully relaxing your fingers also leads to slowness because it takes more time and effort for a relaxed muscle to jump to action.
There's a middle here that is quite similar to standing: standing is not relaxing - you'd collapse to the floor - but doesn't feel like tension/action either. This is the same for your wrist ("relaxed wrist" is an often heard and dangerous advice, as bad as or worse than a tense wrist). You can think Stephanie Brown's "natural", "neutral", I believe Dorothy Taubman uses "lively".
The fine muscles of the fingers are most suited for fine adjustments of the key press (like in speed for tone color) - they simply, physiologically, cannot be the main force.

But if not mainly by fingers, how does one press keys? You use the weight, movement and strength of the hand and forearm to support your fingers.

When muscles work against each other
Even if your fingers were capable of delivering the strength necessary, if you don't move the hand and forearm in the same direction they would start pulling on your fingers in the opposite direction of playing (dual muscular pull). This happens every time your fingers move before the hand and forearm do (isolation), leading to slowness and possibly fatigue, so every movement should be instigated (put in motion) by your forearm.
Your wrist also won't exactly be happy to instigate motions - like the fingers it should follow the forearm.
 
The forearm moves by rotation (like playing a tambourine) because your fingers need to move downwards and because, like your fingers, it can move incredibly quickly this way.
Isolation also happens when you raise a finger by itself before playing (extension, which is slow, tense and heavy), or when the other fingers don't follow the downward movement of playing to a certain point.
During any movement toward a key and to the keybed, nothing should be holding up or away from that movement. Additionally, moving from the forearm allows gravity to help you.
If done well, to me it feels like my playing fingers are doing... nothing. Which, again, is not relaxing. They just follow the movement initiated by the forearm, which ensures they do not do more or less than they can. (It works similar for the upper arm, but in this case rather because the upper arm is big, slow and imprecise: moving it from the forearm moves it in just the right amount).

Note: the rotational basis for all movements described is almost or completely invisible. There are videos on YouTube that show how to practice and subsequently minimize rotation. What you see in virtuoso pianists is finger movement - looks are deceiving!

Curling, keybedding, playing too fast
Curling your fingers too much (pulling in the fingertips) tightly pulls very long and slow muscles, that go all the way to your forearm, over your wrist, limiting the freedom and speed of both your fingers and your wrist.
So you should try to keep your last joint (connecting the fingertip to the middle phalanx of the finger) mostly straight, like a bridge, as if the last two phalanxes are one piece (no excessive bulging out, absolutely no caving in). As a reference, the optimal finger curve is your hand's natural curve when you relaxedly drop it to your side.

These are just some headlines of the musculature involved, there's much more but I'll spare you for now.

Additional common problems are:
- Aiming for the keybed instead of aiming your energy to the point of sound and simply following through to the keybed from there (too much unnecessary muscle, slow, hits your fingers back with the excessive force)
- Pushing on the keybed: once the key is down, it can't go further down so don't waste energy there. Once you're there you're "resting", "standing" on the keys (no relaxing, no holding up!).
- Moving your fingers "too fast": fast playing should never feel fast; you have to "slow down into the key" with forearm rotation.
Playing louder is of course relatively faster, but probably slower than you think it should be. Some people prefer to think of adding more weight instead of moving faster to play loud - and your fingers shouldn't be doing anything more than when playing softly.
[Personally, this was one of the biggest and most eye-opening things to me. At my stage of integrating all these movements, this was the single thing that brought everything together. It ensures your fingers aren't ahead and isolate, the surface tension doesn't hit you (you go along with the key), you don't overshoot. And how absolutely controlled it feels... It's literally the best feeling in the world, like the piano is working with me instead of against me.
- Allow the rebound of a piano key to help you lift up again.

And then there's the thumb.... I'm going to stop here because I might as well start writing a dissertation now. You can look up research and methods by most if not all aforementioned schools.
Depending on how used you are to these or wrong movements, learning to play correctly (smoothly, quickly, painlessly, with full control) can be VERY INTENSE. My first 2 months especially were absolute hell because I was both a curler and an isolator and I'd almost given up on multiple occasions. Now I can only thank the Gods (myself, really) that I didn't.
So questions are always welcome :)

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #16 on: September 15, 2022, 05:08:09 AM
There is too much obsession on the physical aspects of piano playing today. I think I can hear it in the soullessness of today's competition-obsessed concert pianists. The important thing is muscle memory, and artistic ideas (which can be built thru repeated listening and exposure to art etc.)

Measuring the arc of your hand with a protractor, the force produced by a fortissimo in newtons, and the like is not entirely necessary.

Offline douweziel

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Re: Finger Exercises
Reply #17 on: September 15, 2022, 04:07:49 PM
Measuring the arc of your hand with a protractor, the force produced by a fortissimo in newtons, and the like is not entirely necessary.
People actually do that?
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