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Topic: Tuner not working.  (Read 624 times)

Offline leigh anne

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Tuner not working.
on: July 13, 2022, 02:09:07 PM
Hey! Today I tried tuning my guitar and my tuner has gone absolutely insane! It says "E" while I am pressing A!! The sound us quite far and I don't know what is wrong with it. It is a device and I only orderes it online. I felt like I was scammed because it turned out to be a minature tuner device. Anyway it is acting up now. How can I fix this?
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"

Offline quantum

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #1 on: July 13, 2022, 03:15:52 PM
Do you have any other tuner to compare with?  Try some software tuners.  Try changing the distance and placement of the tuner to the instrument.

The pitch E is contained in the harmonic series of the pitch A - the 2nd overtone or 3rd partial.  The tuner could be picking up the harmonic if it is sounding prominently. 

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Offline leigh anne

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #2 on: July 13, 2022, 03:24:46 PM
Do you have any other tuner to compare with?  Try some software tuners.  Try changing the distance and placement of the tuner to the instrument.

The pitch E is contained in the harmonic series of the pitch A - the 2nd overtone or 3rd partial.  The tuner could be picking up the harmonic if it is sounding prominently.


OK. I'll try that. Thanks! :)
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #3 on: July 14, 2022, 06:54:25 PM
Is there a chance you could check it against a piano?  (this being primarily a piano forum, most people have some access, but not all)

Failing that, go here: 


The cello drones on youtube are very useful, and they are the correct pitch.  Your tuner should recognize them.  Many of us use them for improving our intonation on instruments like trombone or.....gasp........cello I suppose.  Anyway it will give you a good reference point.

You could use them directly for tuning your guitar.  However, it can be hard to figure what octave you want the string in, and if you are wrong you might break it.
Tim

Offline leigh anne

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #4 on: July 15, 2022, 04:17:58 AM
Is there a chance you could check it against a piano?  (this being primarily a piano forum, most people have some access, but not all)

Failing that, go here: 


The cello drones on youtube are very useful, and they are the correct pitch.  Your tuner should recognize them.  Many of us use them for improving our intonation on instruments like trombone or.....gasp........cello I suppose.  Anyway it will give you a good reference point.

You could use them directly for tuning your guitar.  However, it can be hard to figure what octave you want the string in, and if you are wrong you might break it.




Actually I use piano to tune my guitar these days. However when I leave, I don't have anything to tune my guitar. But the cello drones are really a good suggestion. It's worth a try. Thanks a lot.

-Leigh
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #5 on: July 16, 2022, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: leigh anne


Actually I use piano to tune my guitar these days. However when I leave, I don't have anything to tune my guitar. But the cello drones are really a good suggestion. It's worth a try. Thanks a lot.

-Leigh

Yikes!  I can't imagine you get good tunings that way.  Can you even hear beats? 

I have a file on tweaking guitar tuning written by a piano tuner, if you're interested I'll look for it.
Tim

Offline leigh anne

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #6 on: July 17, 2022, 03:14:21 AM
Yikes!  I can't imagine you get good tunings that way.  Can you even hear beats? 


Yes I can get tunings that way. I have proven it many times. The notes are all the same if you look at it. And of course the octave is just very simple.
 :)
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 10:58:15 PM
Yes I can get tunings that way. I have proven it many times. The notes are all the same if you look at it. And of course the octave is just very simple.
 :)

The notes are the same, true.  And if you have no trouble with the octave you're obviously not a beginner. 

But the inharmonicity of piano strings is very different from that of guitar strings, so the overtones aren't going to match. 

Also pianos aren't tuned to equal temperament; they are stretched so that they sound to the ear like equal temperament, because of that inharmonicity. 

I would think you would have to just get close to in tune with the piano, and then do considerable fine tuning after that. 

I'll dig up the article I saved on doing that.
Tim

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 11:25:37 PM
Here is a conversation I had some time back with several tuners.  Sorry about the fonts, it went from a forum to Word to LibreOffice and now cut and paste, and I no longer remember who said what.


Quote
Tuner 1
I begin on the G, tune a tempered 4th below it by comparing the Bb-D third, (1st fret on A string is the test note), to the Bb-G sixth. I strive for a distinctly slower third and a fourth that beats less than 1 bps.  Repeat to tune the A string a tempered fourth below the D by using the 1st fret F on the E string,(F-A <F-D). To tune the E string, without a test note, tune from below and when you hear the beating slow to nearly a long whine, stop and check what the string sound like with the E above it, (on the D string). That needs to be a clean octave, certainly not narrow.

   Now comes the fun part. Tune the high E string to either the 2nd or 4th partial of the low E. Check it with the 2nd fret of the D string.  Then, tune the B so that it beats  1 bps with the E and see how fast your G-B third is.  If the sixth is narrow enough (determined by the amount of downward tempering of the fourths), there will be some latitude for the B and you can get a cleaner fourth without speeding the third up, too much . I've raised some eyebrows around here applying this system to guitars with "poor" intonation, and some pro-level instruments whose owners had the classic,"It's never sounded that good, before" response.

Greetings,
Here is the short version: tune your fourths wide, yet beating by the least discernible amount. If you start down from G, bring up the D until it almost stops, and do the same for the A, as soon as the A is tuned, check it against the 2nd fret of the G string. If this is a perfect or slightly wide octave, you are there. If not, make it so and reposition the D. Tune low E so that it sounds equally good with the 2nd fret B (as a fifth), and 2nd fret D (octave).

With those four strings as a foundation, the upper E string is easier to place. It has to sound good with octaves and the third fret has to match the open G string. If you want to check it, the G-E sixth will be beating about 9 beats per second. That leaves the B string, which, if tuned to a 1 bps fourth with the E, should sound fine with the G and most keys will sound the same,
(depending on neck position).
Tuner 2
I tune guitars using a nice procedure that uses two intervals to tune each string.

The first interval uses the open reference string and the second interval uses the open tuned string.

That compensates the changing in tension when a string is depressed.:
Tune the A string to the fork.
Tune the G string to the A string by playing an AA octave with the G string  2nd fret. Then check the fifth CG with the A string 3rd fret. If the fifth sounds too tempered you may need to sharpen the G string a little to have a good sounding fifth but keeping an ear to the AA octave. Find a spot where both the AA octave and the CG fifth sound good.
Tune the B string to the A string by playing the octave BB, A string 2nd fret and open B string. Listen to the GB M3 open strings. Then check the M10 AC#, second fret of B string. The AC# M10 should not be too tempered, compare it to the M3 GB open strings, strive for the same tempering, it should beat aproximately 1 bps faster. If you can not get the same tempering then something is wrong with the tuning of the G string, make compromises in its tuning as needed. Check also unison with G string 4th fret.
Tune the D string to the B string by playing the octave DD, 3rd fret of B string. Then check the fifth EB, 2nd fret of D string. The fifth should not be too tempered. Check also fourths AD and DG with open strings and unison of D string 5th fret and open G string.
Tune the first string, high E, to the D string second fret. The EE octave should be clean. Then check the M10 DF#, second fret high E string. Strive for the same tempering as M10 AC# above. Check fourth BE open strings, fifth AE (G string second fret), P12 AE open A string, unison B string 5th fret.
Tune the sixth string, low E, to the first string, high E, as a clean double octave. Check unison 5th fret with open A string, check octave with D string second fret, check P12th with G string 4th fret, check P12th with open B string.
With all these checks that use open and pressed strings in so many combinations there is no place for misstunings.  Once you know well a particular guitar you can identify the needed checks and skip the rest.
*************
Greetings,
I have to take some issue with that. High quality guitars can be tuned evenly enough that no keys are noticeably out while others are not. The need to tune for individual keys arises when the the sixth ( G string-high E) is too wide. When this happens, there is no place the B can be tuned without either ruining the fourth with the E string, or making a too wide third with the G. So, many will persist in tuning that third to suit the key they are using. There is a better way.

The problem described above occurs when a guitarist tunes by "pure" fourths, i.e. tuning the A to the E so that there is no beating. Then on to the A-D, and finally D-A. The problem arises from two directions; the closer one gets to pure in an interval, the less information they have, and it is not possible to tell if the fourth is actually pure or even narrow by an indiscernible amount by simply listening for beating to stop. The other problem is that if all fourths are exactly pure, the high E string will have to be tuned to match the double octave as well as the 2 fret on the D string and it will be sharp. Way sharp. So sharp that the G-E sixth will be unpleasant. When you pull the B string up to make even an acceptably noisy fourth with the E, the third will remind you of Pythagoras.

You can solve this by widening all the fourths. The cumulative flattening across the lower four strings shrinks the size of the G-E sixth so that there will be an acceptable G-B third without the B-E fourth wailing. I measure the width of the fourths by using the 3rd-6th test,(F-A: F-D) the third is slightly slower than the sixth. The low E is brought up until no beating is heard and checked by playing it with the 2nd fret on the A string. That should be a dead quiet fifth. The high E is tuned from the 4th partial of the low E,(fifth fret harmonic). The B string can be tuned as a fourth to the E by using the G string as the test note. The sixth should be easily noticed as faster, and then the ear can decide if the B should move down to slow the third even more, or come up to clean up the fourth. Equally tempered fourths, on a good neck, will allow all keys to sound very, very, close to the same.

It should be obvious that the wider the fourths are tuned, the slower the third will be. Different guitars seem to sound most evenly tuned with a faster third than others. Gibson acoustics don't seem to beat as fast as Martins, but I haven't done any specific analysis. There are a lot of guitars in Nashville, but very few of the world class pickers around here can actually tune one twice the same way. Without the crystal tuners, they all start wandering around when they get to the B string……
Regards,


Tuner 3
Here is my idea of how to tune a guitar but every time I post it, I get into trouble with the guy who has the crooked frets. For one thing, you may notice that most guitars have a slightly irregular bridge and that helps. However, if what you do is tune all of the 4ths as pure, you will get a very wide GB 3rd and DB 6th (Pythagorean intervals) and sadly, that is what most people do.

I always do it entirely by ear but if you do the following instructions after tuning electronically, you will get a sweeter sounding guitar for the way that most people play it. I am not a guitar player but I have seen any number of professionals do essentially the same thing. Eyes go wide open and jaws drop when I do the following:

• First, use an electronic tuner to tune each string as exactly to the pitch indicated as possible
• Now listen to the sound created by the G and B string played together. It will be a fast, “vibrato” like sound. The waves in sound you hear are called “beats”. The G and B strings will produce a beat rate of about 8 beats per second. Not a rate that you could “count” very accurately but that is what it will be and it will sound slightly “sour”.
• Now, sharpen the G string very slightly, about as little as you can and hear the beats slow down a little. Then, flatten the B string the same way so that the G and B strings now produce a “sweeter” sound of 6 beats per second.
• That 6 beats per second, you can clearly hear. If you put a metronome at 120 ticks per minute, you can imagine three beats per tick, “la-la-la, la-la-la” and that is the sound you will want to hear from the G and B strings.
• Now play the G and high E strings together. You should hear exactly the same sound but possibly just a tiny bit faster. If so, very slightly flatten the high E string.
• Now check the B and High E strings together to make sure you don’t have them not sounding right together. The B and high E string is a 4th but it won’t be completely a pure sound. It should have just a “lilt” in it but not be an obvious “wow-wow-wow” sound. It will be about 1 beat per second.
• Now play the D and B strings together and you will want to sharpen very slightly the D string so that the D and B strings give that very same 6 beat per second beat rate that the G-B and G-E strings have.
• Check the D and G strings together. Again, it will be a slightly impure 4th, about 1 beat per second. The A and D 4th should sound the same as the D and G 4th.
• Now, play the High E and the low E strings together and flatten the Low E until you hear an obvious beat and then sharpen it again and stop just when you hear the beat stop and the double octave come into tune.
• The Low E-A 4th, the A-D 4th, the D-G 4th and the B-high E 4ths should all sound identically. None pure but none “beating” . The G-B 3rd, the G-high E 6th and the D-B 6th should all beat at 6 beats per second.
• Now listen to how totally SWEET your guitar sounds!



Tim

Offline leigh anne

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 12:10:34 PM
Thanks a lot. :)
"Music speaks what cannot be expressed, soothes the mind and gives it rest, heals the heart and makes it whole, flows from heaven to the soul"

Offline tempoguy

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Re: Tuner not working.
Reply #10 on: August 14, 2022, 02:26:56 PM
I have a Snark tuner that I keep in my bass guitar case. It is a clip on tuner that can be used to tune anything, even your voice. It tunes using either vibration or sound.

I think it was around $25 Canadian. It is fast and surprisingly accurate.
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