Piano Forum

Topic: playing piano vs learning a piece?  (Read 1669 times)

Offline lorcar

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
playing piano vs learning a piece?
on: September 20, 2022, 07:35:53 AM
Hi everyone, have been thinking for a while about this question, and now that I am selecting a new teacher for my 8yo daughter the question became even more important.
It seems to me that the traditional teaching methods make the pupils learn specific pieces and that's it. Yes, they are supposed to teach tempo/rhythm/etc as well, however everything is related to the piece on the score in that exact moment. You can memorize it and so you might not need the score anymore, however you will be able to play THAT piece and not  "play the piano".
For me playing piano means a much higher degree of "musicality", ability to improvise something, ability to "play" with the piano without executing the Mozart/chopin/bach's pieces you have learned (the hard way). I am not saying that playing Bach/mozart is not satisfying, i guess it is how all came closer to piano and it brings a huge sense of joy, however (and i guess my whole rant boils down to that question): which method would you suggest to get something more, and really be able to play piano? should one study improvisation/jazz as well?
I am now closer to being 50yo, as almost everyone else started piano as a kid then had a 30y interruption then started again with a teacher, so i guess I have had in my life something like  less than 10different teachers but more than 5 for sure. Well, no one of them taught me anything that would allow me to sit and play a stupid C major progression, or the easiest tune that every kid has in the head. And you can imagine the frustration when I see several people (very far from being musicians themselves) playing it with such a degree of freedom. And I am not even talking about having perfect pitch, or being a jazz professional! I see on social media all kind of folks, this is just one of those https://www.instagram.com/grette_/reels/ 
i guess there are years of study and practice behind all this, but this is not my issue. I just wonder what is the method that would allow you to be closer to this rather than just learning specific pieces.

My daughter went for the last 3y to a Kodali school: what a waste of time and money! so I am now on the market for a new teacher/method and I am really thorn. I spoke with teachers using those methods made on purpose for kids, then the Associated Board of the Royal School of Music, then someone else who has a traditional/classical background but then turned into jazz. My fear is that my daughter will do the same mistakes i did, so will remain simply stuck to those piece of papers that you have on the piano and without which I am lost.
Any suggestion is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Offline dw4rn

  • PS Gold Member
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 161
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #1 on: September 20, 2022, 08:26:55 AM
This is such an interesting question. I guess the problem has to do how the role of "concert pianist" has developed over the years. In "classical times" someone who could play the piano (or organ, harpsichord, whatever) was certainly expected to be able to improvise and compose as well.

I would think like this:
1. What would motivate your daughter to really learn things on the piano? If you think more focus on improvisation, learning her favorite songs rather than Bach Minuets, would make her play the piano more and with greater joy and concentration, then try to find her a teacher who will let her do that.
2. When you've found a competent teacher you like, who's able to make your daughter progress and who cares about her development, don't expect that teacher to be able to teach her everything. There are lots of things you can learn by yourself if you're motivated. I am a classical pianist who has never taken an improvisation lesson in my life, but I played around a lot with different kinds of music when I grew up and because of that I was never a slave to pieces of paper.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7775
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #2 on: September 20, 2022, 09:30:57 AM
What about practice method and sight reading skills? Learning many pieces helps train the procedure to finish pieces and a good teacher will train the student "how" to practice in an efficient and smart manner to save time and learn more works with ease. I agree to avoid lessons where they are just being told what note to play, what finger, louder here softer there etc. You want students to become better at thinking in a musical way and a musically smart way too.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline geopianoincanada

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #3 on: September 23, 2022, 02:56:22 AM
I think I understand the question.

I returned after a 20 year pause to try to resume piano lessons and now in my middle age with flawed eyesight and arthritic hands/wrists/etc... it's no picnic.

I think you're wondering who can ignite the spark of genuine creativity which makes the difference between merely repeating piano notes robotically after much struggle versus feeling and having the joyful music emerge and flow easily from your fingertips without so much forethought or analysis.

Let me know when you find the answer because it's something I'm searching for as well.

Offline andoromano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 3
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #4 on: September 27, 2022, 09:02:17 PM
What about practice method and sight reading skills? Learning many pieces helps train the procedure to finish pieces and a good teacher will train the student "how" to practice in an efficient and smart manner to save time and learn more works with ease. I agree to avoid lessons where they are just being told what note to play, what finger, louder here softer there etc. You want students to become better at thinking in a musical way and a musically smart way too.
Sounds great, but I'm curious about the workmanship. It is known a lot depends on the student and the knowledge and skills of the teacher.

Offline goethefan69420

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 19
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #5 on: September 27, 2022, 09:06:22 PM
Show her a few scales, and exercise to get some freedom at instrument.

Czerny is really good because it has a lot of basic progression, and then trains your ears to understand when there is a resolution.

Then, have her use the stuff she has learned in these pieces away from the book, and just play touch the instrument, and hear it's sounds. You need freedom though to improvise, I'm a pretty decent improviser, and most of my time has been spent learning pieces, but, I've also done so much improvisation as well, by just playing scales, transposing pieces I already know, playing stuff in different keys, and then just counting in your head patterns that are familiar and trying out new stuff.

An example is if she's learned the Minuet in G by Bach, she can play the same piece, but, break up some of the chords and play them differently, maybe change the melody a bit, and just try stuff to see what happens.

The most important thing she should understand that if you hit the piano for fun, you will hear a sound, and then try to find a way to leverage that sound to make something beautiful, mostly work with familiar sounds, but, just don't be afraid to press the piano a lot and press the notes hundreds of times in all kind of combinations, and eventually you will get stuff that sounds good.

Also, some random stuff my teacher helped me with or said that's good is.

Fifths perfect fifths in the left hand
basic alberti patterns (czerny has great ones, and you can copy the same patterns in any notes, you don't even need to know theory just make sure you're playing proper interval and rhythm)
Octaves in the LH and Thirds/Seventh/6th other interval in RH
Octaves in RH as melody and then chords supporting it, or an alberti pattern, or just two notes even legato (down on first note w/ wrist, up on second note)

but all of this also rhythm must come, that's why learning stuff like bach and other stuff is important, but, it also should be the music she hears inside her head she should play. She needs to find out how to talk through the instrument, but, that's very hard if you don't have any freedom from exercises/technique/other pieces.

Also, using scales to improvise is good, you can play the scales as is yes... But, maybe try leaving out a note, or instead of just playing a C scale like... CDEFGABC maybe do CDEFCABC or something like that and then you have a melody.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7775
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 07:49:18 PM
Sounds great, but I'm curious about the workmanship. It is known a lot depends on the student and the knowledge and skills of the teacher.
Workmanship? What is that as a definition related to the art of piano playing isolated from what I previously wrote?

Working on practice craft and increasing the rate of mastery over pieces directly will improve the workmanship of music much greater than attempting things such as improvisation without thr foundation of practice craft and mastery of many pieces to support it.

Also who are you? Are you locar with another username because I didn't respond to anything of yours.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline davepiercy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #7 on: September 30, 2022, 02:47:36 PM
For improvisation, starting pretty much from scratch, look at Ron Drotos, Keyboardimprov.com.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7775
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #8 on: September 30, 2022, 04:07:23 PM
For improvisation, starting pretty much from scratch, look at Ron Drotos, Keyboardimprov.com.
Lame, no time to actually give information here to help someone? Always asking for money before helping someone? Blah!
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline davidarditti

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 4
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #9 on: September 30, 2022, 04:18:21 PM
Interesting and tricky question.

If you are asking about developing improvisational skills at the keyboard, improvisation is very much an expression of musical personality. To develop your own musical personality, you have to study a wide range of pieces inside and out, some of which will suit your personality, and some of which will not. An open-minded teacher will help, but there is no short cut to doing a lot of work. If you know a lot of music, you can imitate it in your own way, and go on to express yourself at the keyboard, and this is what I think you are referring to in terms of being able to 'play the piano'. But to many people 'playing the piano' means something different. There's no one definition of the activity.

To be versatile at the piano means to be able to sight-read all types of music fluently, improvise in various styles, and play pre-prepared standard pieces 'exam style' (the last being what you are complaining about, but it is part of the overall skillset).

When I pass by the people playing the public piano in the railway station, many of them can play convincingly certain narrow styles and improvisational patterns and they entertain the passers-by and get lots of applause, but to me they know nothing about the playing the piano, and wouldn't know a Dorian scale from B flat minor harmonic or be able to read a simple baroque piece.

In the end the main thing is that the study is enjoyable and satisfying. One thing that is a good idea is finding your daughter a partner at similar level, to play duets with her in a variety of styles. This develops musicianship, rhythm, reading and confidence at the keyboard a lot, and is a lot of fun.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7775
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #10 on: September 30, 2022, 04:21:49 PM
Good post davidarditti I agree with everything you write. The op seems to want to try and segregate learning pieces and sight reading for instance without actually realising that if taught effectively forms the possibilities of a vast amount of creative freedom.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline davepiercy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 2
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #11 on: October 01, 2022, 09:35:04 AM
Lame, no time to actually give information here to help someone? Always asking for money before helping someone? Blah!

I'm not asking for money, just letting people know about a useful teacher that I have seen. How is that not helping?

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7775
Re: playing piano vs learning a piece?
Reply #12 on: October 01, 2022, 09:55:17 AM
It's not helping in the sense that there is no help unless money is exchanged. Freely discussing ideas would be a lot more helpful, describe ideas you found interesting there, that would be much more desirable for readers and if strong enough would encourage them then to seek lessons from that source.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com
For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
The Complete Piano Works of 16 Composers

Piano Street’s digital sheet music library is constantly growing. With the additions made during the past months, we now offer the complete solo piano works by sixteen of the most famous Classical, Romantic and Impressionist composers in the web’s most pianist friendly user interface. Read more
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert