Thumb Over Question

[Kapellmeister27]

     I have been reading the posts in this forum about TO technique, yet i still have a few basic quiestions.  I had never heard of this technique and so i observed my own right hand playing a downward arpeggio very quickly.  I noticed that my movement seems to be between TO and TU.  What happens is play the first few notes and then as my thumbs plays, mu hand contracts and my fourth finger comes to the next note.  It doesn't exactly go over the thumb but it comes right about even with it. 
    Then, when it plays, my hand expands again toward my thumb and i continue in like manner.  The best way i can describe this motion is that my hand 'gallops' down the keyboard.  From what I have read, TO seems to be a complete displacement of the hand.  Yet when i do this my hand postition collapses and I seem to lose accuracy and trip over my fingers and lose it entirely. 
   Can someone clarify this for me.  Does the technique involve a complete lateral shift all at once (how do you avoid accent in this case) or is it more a gradual, angular thing such as I have described?

[Rockitman]

don't you mean ascending right hand?  That's where TO comes into play.
Descending right hand wouldn't use any TO.  Left hand descending yes, right hand ascending yes, but lh ascending and rh descending no.
I too am trying get this technique down, but without a teacher to give me a good visualization, it's tough.  It's sounds "hoppy" on the transitions.

[Nordlys]

It is possible to do the same kind of position shift (TO) also RH descending. But it is more important in ascending.

When practising ascending scale; try to lift the thumb before it plays, instead of moving it sideways (even though eventually the thumb will move a little bit sideways).
I found that the chopin etude op.25:12 is good for learning TO. I don't think it is possible to play this piece without this technique.

Also, did you ever try to play scales with the liszt fingering? Then you have to play TO. Two octave c major scale: 123451234512345

[xvimbi]

I think one of the most characteristic features of TO is that the thumb does not lead the hand, but the hand carries the thumb. In other words, the thumb should move by itself as little as possible, no excessive stretching. The thumb kind of stays close to fingers 1 or 2 , but never moves further into the palm area. Likewise, the thumb does no press a key down. It is mostly the rotation of the hand that causes the thumb to touch and release a key. Uneven results are inevitable at the beginning, but I've been told that when one has mastered TO, one would never go back to anything else (I'm still waiting for that to happen).

[ted]

Unfortunately but, I think perhaps, in many aspects fortunately, I was never taught any physical technique at all. As a youth I did everything more or less by finger strokes and jumps without much passing under and over and wrist and arm flexion. I never had any trouble playing quite difficult things and devised my own fingerings for all the standard playing forms. Then when I was about thirty an "expert" told me I was doing everything wrong and "must" use weight technique, pass thumbs under and everything else over, "must" do this, that and the other thing.

So I diligently worked until I could play everything the new, and supposedly proper, way. No miraculous improvement resulted but I can now play most things satisfactorily in several quite different ways, which I suppose is not a bad ability to have. Overall though, as a general approach I like the old, natural (for me) way which, I have come to realise, is essentially what people call "thumb over".

More than anything else I find it better in that it does not run away with me musically, as the weight transfer, "thumb under" way is inclined to after a while. I have a greater degree of musical control and I can forget about what my fingers are doing. Also, in my improvising I like to feel the finger rhythms and internal phrases  which exist within a passage - they lead to new ideas - and I don't feel them as much with weight transfer legato, playing from the shoulders and so on.

I'm not sure how relevant is the fact that I have used a practice clavier for years. Despite what "experts" say, I think it does develop pure finger technique very well indeed. This may have a bearing on which general approach I find best because generally I can rely on my fingers per se.

Truthfully, I have absolutely no idea how unorthodox I really am because aside from forums I have nothing to do with other pianists.   

[steinwayguy]

If you're referring to what I've always known as "passing the thumb"...

Passing the thumb is actually a myth in my opinion. According to Abbey Whiteside, a true legato in an ascending scale or arpeggio can not be attained at a high velocity. In actuality, one should aim for an even tone, which, at a high velocity, is just as good, if not better than legato. Instead of passing the thumb, and in order to achieve even tone, you must make a rapid lateral movement of the arm. It takes practice, but everything will be much easier, and you won't have to practice any of those mind-numbing "passing the thumb exercises" like Czerny. If you really want to master this technique, play Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 8. It's extremely difficult if you don't have the technique down, but if you do, it's easy.

[chopinisque]

I play TO by moving my wrist with a mix of a rotation and up-down movement.  When going up, I concentrate on guiding the hand with the last finger.  The whole hand moves automatically.  There's a "pause" in between if you play slowly, but it disappears at medium speed.  Hope that helps.  But if I'm wrong, please say so.  I'm quite new at it too.  Started after reading the Chang book.

Chopinisque.

[Kapellmeister27]

thanks for the help everyone, but i have a couple more questions.

Does this imply absolutely no lateral movement of the thumb?  (i have a problem with my thumb becoming a little tense, how should i solve this?)

Also, if you were to watch a person playing a scale from above in slow motion what would the arm and hands motion look like?  would the arm be constant like a glissando or would it have slight bumps and rests?  also, should any lateral movement of the hand be involved?

arrg, i wish my teacher was competent enough to what what this technique means.  itad be nice if i could see someone demonstrate it, anyway...

last question.  any tips on how someone whol has played TU for 5 years should work on TO techinique (HT, HS, legato, staccat, etc....)

[xvimbi]

thanks for the help everyone, but i have a couple more questions.

Does this imply absolutely no lateral movement of the thumb?  (i have a problem with my thumb becoming a little tense, how should i solve this?)

There should be little lateral thumb movement. The rational behind this is that the thumb is particularly ill-equipped when it comes to either lateral or vertical movements. In fact, the pressing down on a key with the thumb is equivalent to the lateral movement of the other fingers, and the lateral movment of the thumb is equivalent to the up and down motion of the other fingers. Pretty screwed up. So, it is best not to stray too far away from the middle position of the thumb (this in fact applies to all motions around any joint).

Also, if you were to watch a person playing a scale from above in slow motion what would the arm and hands motion look like?  would the arm be constant like a glissando or would it have slight bumps and rests?  also, should any lateral movement of the hand be involved?

I would recommend getting your hands on the Taubman videos. This will show everything. In fact, the arm does move more or less continuously; there is very little radial or ulnar deviation in the wrist. There is however something that is often neglected entirely: the arm moves constantly in and out of the keyboard. The idea here is to place the fingers on the respective key without having to put it into an overly flexed (curled) or extended (flat) position. In other words, the fingers retain most of their natural curve, and the hand is used to get the fingers to where they have to be. The fingers never "reach".

But don't get me wrong: in practice, there is movement around any joint, from the sholders (perhaps even the hip), all the way to the fingertips. The movements are however ideally equally distributed between all joints, so that the movements around any given joint are as small as possible. They are often imperceptable, but they are there nevertheless.

arrg, i wish my teacher was competent enough to what what this technique means.  itad be nice if i could see someone demonstrate it, anyway...

Taubman videos.