Good triple vs quaver etude or exercise

[perfect_pitch]

I have a Grade 8 piano student (who has only been with me since the end of Grade 7), but she has trouble with the timing of triplets vs normal quavers - no matter what piece it is. She always plays the triplet as a semiquaver-quaver-semiquaver pattern against a quaver-quaver in the other hand.

I've gone through a couple of pieces with these and corrected them, but I am looking for a triplet vs quaver etude or exercise to really help her focus on this rhythmic pattern.

Does anyone know of any good ones? They don't have to be too difficult, and the easier the better as I'm just hoping to get the concept of the timing corrected... but I'd like to try and find a piece with LOTS of them to re-iterate the correct way to play them.

[klavieronin]

How about the Rain Saens Op. 52, No. 4?

Starts at 8:18;

&t=498s

[brogers70]

When I had similar troubles I practiced 3 against 4 scales (triplets in the LH, 16ths in the RH and vice versa), starting with the hands either one or two octaves apart, depending on which hand was doing the triplets and which the 16ths. At the beginning I had to do it quite slowly to get the rhythm correct and I felt it as a complex pattern between the hands; eventually I was able to speed up and to feel it as clear threes in one hand and fours in the other. After doing that on and off for a year or two I got to the point where I could just sight read through 3 against 4 passages without worry.

As for etudes, the first of Chopin's posthumous ones is all about 3 against 4.

Edit: Oops, not used to quavers, semiquavers, etc. So the student's problem is 3 against 2. So the scales (modified appropriately) work for that, too; and the third of those posthumous Chopin etudes targets 3 against 2.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Brogers70... Thanks for the Chopin Etude suggestion - knowing my student, she might struggle a bit with the note learning and the cross-rhythm given the large moving of hands... but that I will keep that posthumous Etude in my brain for other purposes - thanks.

I think the 1st page of the Saint-Saens is definitely more suitable given a lot of the repeating chords in the LH, and the fact that they alternate between RH/LH 3-2 and LH/RH 3-2 each half bar. Thanks for that. I've printed it out for her and will give it to them next week.

[lostinidlewonder]

The coordination can be simply defined as TA ti ti TA (♩♫♩): Together R L R or Together L R L which can be simply tapped out with the hands on a surface or her knees. Get her to listen to each hand and hear the evenness of both. If she can't do that, then this is where she needs to really focus her efforts on first. Surely you can write some exercises out for her given your skills. I am not sure if giving a piece full of that coordination is a kind thing to do ahha. A nice piece could be:

It would be a good exercise for her to play just the Lh of this piece and count the TA ti ti TA with the Lh notes playing on the bracketed (TA) ti (ti) TA  ,  (TA) ti (ti) TA    etc. That will be a good mental challenge. Then playing with the RH should be rather simple after that.

[jgallag]

I am not sure if giving a piece full of that coordination is a kind thing to do ahha.

Very much agreed! Why are you tackling it in a piece? Play a C major scale - RH triplets LH eighths, then switch. Or the eighth note (quaver) hand could simply do repeated C's. The student should not be struggling to learn notes and fingerings AND a challenging rhythmic coordination. Also, try words instead of rhythm solfege. I use "One(B) cup(R)-of(L)-tea(R)." Sending the student home with recordings is big, also. I have a student working on the Chopin Nocturne in C# minor, Op. Post. We tackled the rhythm by playing together in the lesson, and I sent her home with a clip of me playing the passage.

Also, I'm a little shocked at the repertoire suggestions. A student who can't handle the basic 3 against 2 rhythmic pattern certainly won't be able to switch the triplet back and forth from one hand to the other as in the Saint-Saens etude. And the Scriabin also boasts a challenging key for students, wide leaps, and challenging voicing and ties. What's wrong with Debussy's First Arabesque? (Even that's a challenging one, but I haven't yet come across an easier piece with that rhythmic challenge. I've been looking for a good prep piece for the Arabesque...)

[lostinidlewonder]

Also, I'm a little shocked at the repertoire suggestions. .... And the Scriabin also boasts a challenging key for students, wide leaps, and challenging voicing and ties. What's wrong with Debussy's First Arabesque? (Even that's a challenging one, but I haven't yet come across an easier piece with that rhythmic challenge. I've been looking for a good prep piece for the Arabesque...)

I would argue the Arabesque is probably more difficult than the very short Scriabin Prelude which has a number of repeated ideas and a LH which is quite a common pattern for contemporary style and which is also 40 bars vs 107 bars of music. PP's student is grade 8 AMEB which is not a low grade at all, it is quite advanced so they would quite easily deal with it.

I guess there is something from Phillip Glass which is highly repetitive, like:

Morrning passages
https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/0531/Morning%2520Passage.pdf

[perfect_pitch]

Very much agreed! Why are you tackling it in a piece? Play a C major scale - RH triplets LH eighths, then switch. Or the eighth note (quaver) hand could simply do repeated C's. The student should not be struggling to learn notes and fingerings AND a challenging rhythmic coordination. Also, try words instead of rhythm solfege. I use "One(B) cup(R)-of(L)-tea(R)." Sending the student home with recordings is big, also. I have a student working on the Chopin Nocturne in C# minor, Op. Post. We tackled the rhythm by playing together in the lesson, and I sent her home with a clip of me playing the passage.

Also, I'm a little shocked at the repertoire suggestions. A student who can't handle the basic 3 against 2 rhythmic pattern certainly won't be able to switch the triplet back and forth from one hand to the other as in the Saint-Saens etude. And the Scriabin also boasts a challenging key for students, wide leaps, and challenging voicing and ties.

The student is actually fairly good at sight-reading, and believe me - I've tried Polyrhythmic scales and she did them fine. Yes, it took her a bit of work to get correct but we've done that in the past... but because the notes are pretty linear in there motion up and down the piano it doesn't pose much of a challenge.

I constantly use the 1    2 & 3 to help her with the timing, but for some reason this has never sunk in. Plus, if you read my post, I did say I would get her to look at just the FIRST PAGE of the Saint-Saens. It's 20 bars, it's not that big for goodness sake.

I'll look at parts of the Phillip Glass and also maybe suggest those sections.

[helenmorris62]

Mendelssohn Song Without Words op 53 no 2 isn't too hard and has triplet v. quaver throughout. I have also written a very short study (attached) for a pupil who was having similar problems - it's cheesy but I've found it effective!

[perfect_pitch]

Thanks for that - I've printed it out and had a play through - quite nice. Make sure you actually write your name on compositions like that, so that if people begin to send it to other piano players, then people know who should be credited for the melody.

I say that as someone who's arranged music quite a bit. You don't want someone else taking your work and claiming it as their own.