Picking the correct fingers for octaves

[mikeonpiano]

 Online Content
Mikeonpiano
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 5
CA USA
   
Just had a question about correct fingerings. Please note: I am aware of the correct fingers and thunb under and fingers over when doing a 7 note scale. And I've found some good videos demonstrating how to span to the next octave. But one thing that has me scratching my head is:

When you play a scale and then you jump to the next octave, or maybe two octaves to play a new scale, If you start on an random note in the upper octave, how do you know what finger you are suppose to start with to leave yourself enough fingers to continue on with the upper scale.

This fingering stuff seems more complex then just learning the notes.

[lelle]

Hello! I unfortunately do not fully understand the question. Can you post a picture of the score of the passage or passages you have in mind?

[mikeonpiano]

I'm not sure how else to ask the question. Maybe this is easier. Note the top line:
https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0113731&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3eL6hpfw_AIVA-H9BR31xwE1EAEYASABEgK3QPD_BwE

Notice the lower ledger drops down below middle C. I know the note is A, but I'm not sure what finger should be used to press the A note so that I can fluently play the rest of the notes. And by the way, It's strange to me that the upper treble clef would drop into the base notes. In other words, what finger do you use to press the A on the lower ledger?

[lelle]

Notice the lower ledger drops down below middle C. I know the note is A, but I'm not sure what finger should be used to press the A note so that I can fluently play the rest of the notes. And by the way, It's strange to me that the upper treble clef would drop into the base notes. In other words, what finger do you use to press the A on the lower ledger?

In the example given, first line, top of the page, I would use the thumb on the A, 3 on D, and 5 on F using the right hand.

The right hand playing lower than usual on the piano does happen, as does the left hand playing higher up on the piano. As a general rule, the notes on the upper line (the one with the treble clef in your example) are played with the right hand, and the notes in the lower line (the one with the bass clef) are played with the left hand.

You often finger so that you can easily and naturally take a chunk of notes in one go, so to speak. You also make sure to move your hand/arm so that you don't have to stretch out the fingers to reach notes unless strictly necessary. The goal is to keep your hand feeling comfortable and relaxed while you play.

General, boring answer - it'll become easier to intuitively know suitable fingers when you gain experience through playing more pieces

The reason I asked was because you seemed to describe a scenario involving scales, and I wasn't sure what you meant. Now I'm more confused, since the example you posted didn't have any scales in it

[quantum]

As lelle mentioned, your question is a bit confusing as the first post seems to ask about scales yet the example you give deals with broken chords. 

A generalized approach would be one of two options:

1. Use the fingering pattern from the standard ones offered for scale, chord or arpeggio.  If the passage starts on a random note, start with a finger that fits most easily, then transition into the standard fingering pattern at an appropriate time. 

2. Use a fingering pattern that fits the passage, even if it goes against the standard fingering pattern.  In this situation preference is given to choosing patterns that both fit the hand and the specific music passage, rather than trying to make a familiar standard pattern fit the music. 

Knowing which option to choose comes with experience.  Ask your teacher to show you. You can also post questions on specific music examples in this forum.

And by the way, It's strange to me that the upper treble clef would drop into the base notes. In other words, what finger do you use to press the A on the lower ledger?

Middle C is not a divider for left and right hands.  Right hand can play in the bass, left hand can play in the treble.  Unfortunately the way middle C is represented in some beginner method books, makes students think it is some sort of way to divide the keyboard between the hands.

[mikeonpiano]

My questions pertain to sight reading.
Sorry to switch the question from scales, I was just trying to make the original question simple. What lelle said about using fingers in a way as to keep the hand from stretching makes total sense, but I would think there would have to be a stricter kind of standard for someone who is sight reading so they could find the correct fingers quickly.

To bounce back to my original question: If a piece of music tells you to jump to a scale a few octaves up, I was asking how to quickly know what fingers to use. I'm seeing music on the net but not knowing what fingers to use for the notes. People are telling me to download sheet music off the net to practice with, but It's kind of tough when you don't know what fingers to use. I'm aware of the proper fingers for the 7 notes from middle C, and I do realize what quantum is saying, "both hands can play anywhere".

The thing that is confusing me is: On guitar, I was always taught that when you play scales, you position your fingers correctly or the scales will not align with your finger potions. I don't know how this works on the piano.
I think I need to watch some videos like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKTT2CeUxKw

[quantum]

I'm seeing music on the net but not knowing what fingers to use for the notes. People are telling me to download sheet music off the net to practice with, but It's kind of tough when you don't know what fingers to use. I'm aware of the proper fingers for the 7 notes from middle C, and I do realize what quantum is saying, "both hands can play anywhere".

Can you post a specific music example.

[brogers70]

My questions pertain to sight reading.
Sorry to switch the question from scales, I was just trying to make the original question simple. What lelle said about using fingers in a way as to keep the hand from stretching makes total sense, but I would think there would have to be a stricter kind of standard for someone who is sight reading so they could find the correct fingers quickly.

To bounce back to my original question: If a piece of music tells you to jump to a scale a few octaves up, I was asking how to quickly know what fingers to use. I'm seeing music on the net but not knowing what fingers to use for the notes. People are telling me to download sheet music off the net to practice with, but It's kind of tough when you don't know what fingers to use. I'm aware of the proper fingers for the 7 notes from middle C, and I do realize what quantum is saying, "both hands can play anywhere".

The thing that is confusing me is: On guitar, I was always taught that when you play scales, you position your fingers correctly or the scales will not align with your finger potions. I don't know how this works on the piano.
I think I need to watch some videos like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKTT2CeUxKw

I don't think you should over think this. Looking at a piece of music and immediately knowing the best fingering is a skill that takes a long time to develop. It will definitely come with time and you will definitely, but gradually, feel less confused about it. Some things that help....

1. Learn your scales and arpeggios in all the keys. If you automatically know the fingerings for all the scales, then if you jump up in the right hand to start a fragment of a D major scale, say beginning on the F#, you'll naturally use your third finger - and most of the time that will work. In the case of the example you gave, you would have known your d minor chords and it would seem automatic you you to finger that first arpeggio 135. (There will be exceptions, where because of the context you will not finger a scale or arpeggio the way you would if you were practicing it in isolation, but often the standard fingering will work - the same is true on classical guitar, the fingering you learned from practicing your Andres Segovia scales usually works, but sometimes you have to adapt it to the context.

2. Learn a lot of easy pieces for which the fingering is already indicated in the music. Over time you'll see patterns that become automatic.

When it comes to dense, complicated music, even very good, professional pianists may have to stop and experiment to find the fingering that works best. I'd also say, don't be in too much of a hurry to get to playing your favorite Beethoven sonata - those things are hard, and it takes a few years to get to the point where you're in a position to tackle them. Find a way to enjoy simple things and after a while fingering patterns will eventually seem less of a mystery. In the meanwhile, people here can help if you put up specific examples where you have questions about fingering.

[keypeg]

Mikeonpiano, here are some general principles that I have learned and taught esp. to people coming from other instruments.

- The first principle is that any note can be played with any finger - there is no "position" as such, even if in beginner books it's taught that way for convenience.

- The keyboard has a regular layout of white and black keys, the latter being shorter, further back, and higher up.  You have two hands which are mirror images, with short and long fingers, a thumb that is further back but a wide range of motion.  You are also sitting centrally at an instrument that is larger than you where your bum stays in one place but you can pivot side to side, forward and back, circular, to reach places.  Your arms have freedom of movement and can tilt your hand this way and that.  These are your piano-playing realities.  ---- The key layout, and the length of your fingers, will be two factors that work together.  If you put your long middle fingers on the 3 black keys, and the shorter thumb and pinky dangling to the white keys, this should give you one picture.

- Your hand can cover a range of notes that might be an octave, or less, or a 10th if you have large flexible hands.  There is a "territory" that your hand can cover.  The notes in your music will stay in one "territory" for a while, and then in another territory.  You sort of map out that territory for new positions of your hand.  As a beginner it's probably too early to do this.  A lot of material will have this written in - not every note, but "guide fingers.  (1 under G (RH) tells you to move over so that your thumb is on G.)

- Your hands do not have to be "lined up" like parallel lines to the parallel lines of the keys - they can be angled any way, and constantly changing angles.  If your notes are mostly black keys you'll be moving in to the fallboard, if mostly white, you're moving further out.  It's like if you're reaching for different things, you'll move yourself closer and further away, and angle yourself, according to where things are.  You should not be in a "piano position" where you are in a rigidly fixed place.  You do want to stay balanced.

- Your hands can and should constantly change shape.  Dr. Mortensen has some good videos on that.  Do not lock your hand in "this group of notes" position.

- My teacher has students learn to use pedal very early, but also ensures that they learn how to use the pedal properly in its timing.  Here the advantage is that you can learn not to tightly hold on a note for its whole duration, with your finger and hand possibly getting stiff.  You can press and release a note and it will continue due to the pedal.  You can get the habit of moving to the next note while the first one is still playing, being there ahead of time, relaxing your hand in between. Those reflexes may stay established for when you don't use the pedal.

Piano has some things in common with guitar.  If you play a note on one string, (guitar), then another note on the next string, that first note will continue to sound unless you dampen it with your hand, or if you play another note on the same string.  Piano also has that property of continuance.  The dampers falling down are the hand that dampens the sound, but it is mechanically automatic.  When you play a note and hold it down, you are simply holding up the dampers.  On a digital, this is reproduced virtually, but not physically.  Wind players and singers and violinists are used to having to keep producing the note's duration through continual effort.  As a guitarist, you already have a feel for this property.

These are the things you are working with.

The piece you linked is played with pedal.  I think I remember a whole note on the bass.  That note will be struck but not held, so it's played like an eighth note but sounds like a whole note.  when the pedal foot does its next up-down, it "erases" the whole note like a hand damping a vibrating guitar string.  Freedom of movement, and moving along large spaces (pianos are huge compared to a guitar), are elements of this instrument.

[roncesvalles]

On the piano, you start learning by doing the standard fingering for scales, arpeggios, and chords.  This is a kind of foundational work on basic patterns.  But in actual music, things may be more complicated for fingering.  Having a teacher could be really beneficial for you to find and understand fingerings.

As a basic practice for fingering, for every note you play you want to be aware of the note(s) that preceded it and the note(s) that follow it.   If you're jumping up two octaves to play a note, for example, what is really key to the fingering is what follows the note you jump to.   Does the line descend?  Is this descent a basic scale pattern in which you can use something like the descending C major scale pattern?  Are you using black keys?  Are there five or fewer notes in that descent?   Is it ascending?  Is it a basic scale pattern?  Etc. 

The music really dictates what fingerings are possible.  That's why it's almost impossible to give you advice without seeing what music specifically is motivating your question.   Anything can happen after a jump of an octave or two--your question just isn't specific enough without music to get a meaningful answer.

Fingering requires familiarity with the instrument, so this is a skill that you will develop as you progress.  It's best to start with very basic pieces, in order to get familiar with simple patterns and what fingers to use, where, slowly learning more about the possibilities of fingering.  Over time your awareness of fingering will be quite complex, and you'll be able to develop a rationale for the choice of one possible fingering over another.

If you're an absolute beginner, you should think about getting a teacher and using sheet music that has fingerings written on the score.

[lostinidlewonder]

Fingering is what makes learning the piano quite confusing. Many suggested fingers for sheet music found online are just not the optimal, you may have cases which seem intuitive but actually the correct solution is something you wouldn't come up with unless you were told it was good to use and should be trained.

It is often good to post passages with your own fingering solution and more experienced pianists can correct you and explain why their solution is more desirable, you can learn a lot this way.

There are many rules for fingering to be aware of which can only be appreciated by experiencing it with many pieces to know when they apply and when they can be bent.

You might find this link interesting to post on and look through:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=68656.0

[ranjit]

When you play a scale and then you jump to the next octave, or maybe two octaves to play a new scale, If you start on an random note in the upper octave, how do you know what finger you are suppose to start with to leave yourself enough fingers to continue on with the upper scale.

For a straightforward answer to your question, you need to calculate how many notes you have to go up the scale and fit it roughly within the minimum number of required hand positions.

[lelle]

My questions pertain to sight reading.
Sorry to switch the question from scales, I was just trying to make the original question simple. What lelle said about using fingers in a way as to keep the hand from stretching makes total sense, but I would think there would have to be a stricter kind of standard for someone who is sight reading so they could find the correct fingers quickly.

To bounce back to my original question: If a piece of music tells you to jump to a scale a few octaves up, I was asking how to quickly know what fingers to use. I'm seeing music on the net but not knowing what fingers to use for the notes. People are telling me to download sheet music off the net to practice with, but It's kind of tough when you don't know what fingers to use. I'm aware of the proper fingers for the 7 notes from middle C, and I do realize what quantum is saying, "both hands can play anywhere".

The thing that is confusing me is: On guitar, I was always taught that when you play scales, you position your fingers correctly or the scales will not align with your finger potions. I don't know how this works on the piano.
I think I need to watch some videos like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKTT2CeUxKw

As others have mentioned, you'll benefit a lot from learning all the standard fingerings of all the major and minor scales. That'll teach you a lot of conventions about fingering and when you read sheet music, you'll be able if the patterns you are seeing are matching a scale you already know, and then you can just apply that scale's fingering to the situation. There are cases where that won't work, but it'll solve a large number of scenarios well enough for sight reading.