Should an unmotivated young student still continue lessons?

[fignewton]

I originally titled this post "When should a student be allowed to quit piano?" but I realize this implies that students should be forced to play when they don't enjoy it which isn't what I intended. If this has already been discussed, please let me know which thread to search. I have read a few threads about quitting in general but not sure if this particular question has come up.

My general thought is that students should begin lessons around 6-9 years old and approach learning an instrument as another core subject such as math instead of approaching it as a hobby. I think some students quit piano too early and are not old enough to make such a decision. That said, after a certain point if they are not liking lessons and have tried different teachers, they should definitely not be forced to take lessons. I know it depends a lot on each individual student, but I wonder how you determine when it is reasonable for a young student to quit piano. My thought is maybe after 4 years, or once they have reached the level of playing some polyphonic works and pieces with pedal since after this point, they have probably learned enough piano to continue to pursue music on their own at a later point. I sometimes find that students like piano for the first 1-3 years but then lose motivation, so this 4-year mark seems like maybe enough time for them to really know.

Any thoughts on this topic would be appreciated. I might be delayed in replying though.

[danesi]

Wow. What a post indeed. I can’t say I have the utmost experience in this, but I believe a student should be able to quit at any time they want. If they are uninterested in the piano, so be it. They don’t have to waste years of their life doing something unsatisfying. Of course, if it turns out that the student finds a passion for the piano, they should be encouraged to continue. As for your claim about music being a core subject, I agree, but students are often exposed to music anyways through the education system, and they can get a good sample of what music is like in that program. To my original claim, I have many friends who were forced to play piano as children, and ended up hating it. Most of them weren’t allowed to quit, and thusly developed a distaste for music, especially classical music. So it’s of my small opinion that students should be given the rights to their access to music.
             I hope this finds you well,
                        Cheers,
                                 Danesi

[fignewton]

Thank you for your reply, Danesi. I don't want the post to seem too extreme haha, so I removed my original part about continuing through high school.

I realize that forcing a student to continue lessons can make them hate music, and that should be avoided. I just wonder if your friends hated music because they were forced to continue with piano, or if it was that they had to continue with the same teacher. I think an overly harsh teacher can make anyone want to quit.

If a student is hating lessons, it makes sense to quit (assuming they already switched teachers,) but the hypothetical students I have in mind are ones who basically like music, and have had previous success in piano, but now feel unmotivated to practice. Of course, the first goal is to re-inspire/motivate a student, but that is a separate discussion. If one does view piano as a core subject, maybe an uninspired student should still continue with piano lessons just as they can't drop math class when they feel uninspired by it.

When I was kid, I sometimes did not feel motivated to practice, especially in middle school, and although I wasn't forced to continue, my mom strongly recommended I stick with it and would have been pretty disappointed if I quit, and I'm glad I continued with it, to say the least. I think many kids aren't old enough to make a good decision about whether they should continue which is why I think they should try to do at least 4 years of lessons so that they can make an informed decision. But perhaps only 1 year is needed, or even 3 months to make that decision.

[lelle]

I agree with danesi. I think kids should be exposed to a multitude of instruments/musical activities and be allowed to pick the one they become excited about. If they don't like any of them, so be it, I think it's just harmful to force them to play in that case. Then use their own excitement and hunger for exploration to guide them towards learning the basic skills needed to play well. Foundations can be taught through plenty of different styles and pieces, so no need to be a boring authoritarian teacher who forces kids to slog through a strict curriculum that they don't enjoy.

If you wonder what's informed my views, in my own case, my continuation playing the piano happened DESPITE certain teachers, rather than because of. My own internal motivation allowed my passion for it to survive some pretty dreary lessons.

[fignewton]

Thanks for your reply. Students don't have to continue with a boring authoritarian, maybe they could switch teachers but still try to continue, but I agree that it is not worth the harm. I am not for forcing them to do it if they hate it, but what I wonder is whether there is a set amount of lessons that is enough for them to make an informed decision without regretting it. It sounds like the general consensus so far is that they can make an informed decision at any point in their studies which is understandable, but I disagree.

[thorn]

Let's also talk about parents. Here in the UK you have to pay for your child's instrumental lessons with no support from the state (I imagine most countries are the same). So for many parents if their kid is not practicing they will stop the lessons. In the current economic climate I'm sure there are also parents who cut their child's music lessons because they're struggling to pay rent, even if the child loves piano and practices for hours every day (which in turn means teachers have to raise their fee for other students to maintain their income, and I daresay lose more students in the process). As an ex-teacher I've personally experienced the reverse; rich parents forcing their child to take lessons and every lesson was essentially the same because she didn't practice- the sad thing was she was more interested in composition and as a dual piano/composition major I could have helped but the parents didn't want this.

Basically my general view is that the music education system is broken and the solution is not as simple as 'make music compulsory until X age' or 'give schools a blank cheque for better facilities'. It needs an overhaul to level the field between state/private, provide grants to low income families, give self-employed teachers a stable income like those in state schools/conservatories, and in the classical sector in particular stop glamourising the struggle. We're not in the 19th century any more. Unfortunately those with enough power to make these changes view such things as part of the woke liberal agenda 

[fignewton]

Thanks for your reply. I agree there's not a simple answer and there would need to be an overhaul of the system to make music more of a consistent experience for everyone. That's frustrating that the parents you mentioned wouldn't be willing to switch to composition for a while to see if that would rekindle the interest. How long did you teach this student who didn't practice?

[brogers70]

I think that parents are more likely to foster an interest in music in their kids just by having a lot of music in the environment, rather than by trying to force it. It's great if the parents are amateur musicians, but even just having lots of music on in the house as the kids are growing up helps. Force kids to study Latin as a core subject and maybe one in 10,000 will end up a classicist, same thing with music. I wouldn't force it. If the adults around them are musical, the kids will have a good chance of getting drawn in to the enthusiasm.

My daughter started piano lessons and dropped them pretty quick. Years later I asked her if she wished I had made her stick with it. She said "No way. You can't imagine how many of my friends spent hours crying in frustration over being forced to practice, and not a one of them likes music as an adult."

[thorn]

Thanks for your reply. I agree there's not a simple answer and there would need to be an overhaul of the system to make music more of a consistent experience for everyone. That's frustrating that the parents you mentioned wouldn't be willing to switch to composition for a while to see if that would rekindle the interest. How long did you teach this student who didn't practice?

About 1.5 years. I was still an undergrad at the time so didn't have the skills/confidence to end the lessons myself (I definitely would these days!) They ended when I graduated and moved cities.

[ego0720]

I’m a case where I was forced to do it, hated it, but loving it 25+ years later. It’s important to assess why the student is unmotivated. Music can be overwhelming. Make sure it’s not because they are overly frustrated. Bc sometimes they do love it but decided they aren’t good enough. Or maybe the music they play aren’t their selection.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I’d let them quit whenever they want.  But it’s important to expose them to several genres and styles of playing.  Most piano teachers aren’t good teachers because they can’t or won’t teach anything outside of method book classical music or just classical music in general.

[kosulin]

In my town all elementary school students play recorder and get some basic music and music history knowledge. This is mandatory, but fun class. I have not heard of any kid who would not enjoy it.
When they move to middle school they can continue music education only if they want to - they are offered two orchestra groups (beginner and intermediate - both offer woodwinds, brass, and percussion), and two choruses. All willing students can join the beginner group at any school grade 5-8, and can advance to intermediate next year if they want and can, or can stay with beginners. Of course those who are already good enough (say took out of school classes) will be accepted to intermediate orchestra and/or chorus by audition right away.
Same in the high school - chamber chorus, jazz band, marching band, orchestra - only if they want to take these graded classes (grades are based on participation and effort, of course, not on how talented they are.
Jazz band expects that students already know how to play, and is considered advanced class by audition only.
Our schools do not offer keyboard and guitar because these classes would require personal education.

I'd say any young student should be allowed to not learn music if they do not want to. Otherwise they may develop negative attitude to it which may prevent them from possible joyful musical experience later in their life.

Both my kids played trumpet in middle school, and had fun. Older son also sang in chorus until high school graduation. Not because they had to, but because they liked it.
They both also tried classical guitar, electric guitar, piano classes out of school, and older son also took drums. As long as they wanted, not longer. IMHO, music is not for tiger moms and their kids.

[fignewton]

Thank you all for your replies since I last logged it. I am not a parent myself, but I teach a lot of kids in the 5 to 13 year old range. Most of the students take lessons because they enjoy it, but occasionally this topic does come up, so it's definitely helpful to get some different perspectives on this. Thanks again.

[ervinhaley]

Thanks for your reply. Students don't have to continue with a boring authoritarian, maybe they could switch teachers but still try to continue, but I agree that it is not worth the harm. I am not for forcing them to do it if they hate it, but what I wonder is whether there is a set amount of lessons that is enough for them to make an informed decision without regretting it. It sounds like the general consensus so far is that they can make an informed decision at any point in their studies which is understandable, but I disagree.dinosaur game

If they are uninterested in the piano, so be it. They don't have to waste years of their life doing something unsatisfying. Of course, if it turns out that the student finds a passion for the piano, they should be encouraged to continue.

[transitional]

If they get past grade 1 and still don't care, they must not be very interested.

[ego0720]

The reason for their lack of motivation should be assessed. Not sure if that’s the teachers job or the parent (or some hybrid responsibility). The next generation seems to lack the overall critical thinking and discipline as compared to previous. So if it’s a matter of “it’s so hard” and the kid loses confidence.. that’s a terrible way to go out. The person will continue quit anything else that starts to get hard and the pattern continues.

I’m of the opinion that the love for -certain- hobby is an illusion on how it’s begun or chosen. And sometimes when u do love something later u could have benefited in building the tools a little sooner before the realization. Most of the time we stick to things that we feel we are better at when in fact it’s how that talent was nurtured and inspired. That’s part teacher and parent and part environment. One thing music taught me is the general path of mastery that is the universal truth to all subject matter. Once experienced in music, I feel that eureka would have benefited my personal journey in life had I learned it sooner. I quit early because I couldn’t see piano as accessible to common person.. that changed with technology. It’s still rare to see a public performance in USA but the chances are much higher today than it was 3-4 decades ago.  Also, much more resources today than there was then. 

I am reflecting on a tiger mom.. it’s a world of difference when parents are involved to give encouragement and support. Expecting the teacher to carry the weight is unreasonable in getting the kid there. And for teachers it’s difficult to mention that but that goes for piano and general education. Alas, I’m reaching digression so I’ll let it be here.

[brogers70]

The next generation seems to lack the overall critical thinking and discipline as compared to previous.

....as old folks have been saying for thousands of years.

[ego0720]

....as old folks have been saying for thousands of years.

Not sure about the last millenium, or even the last 100.. I would attribute particularly the last 20 years to dependency on the visual sense versus the mindsight in stimulating certain brainwaves. As things get easier and accessible, ironically the ability to try dwindles. With that the stamina to do more. Other contributing factors are blue light effect and pandemic shutdown.

[brogers70]

Not sure about the last millenium, or even the last 100.. I would attribute particularly the last 20 years to dependency on the visual sense versus the mindsight in stimulating certain brainwaves. As things get easier and accessible, ironically the ability to try dwindles. With that the stamina to do more. Other contributing factors are blue light effect and pandemic shutdown.

As Socrates said "With this new-fangled writing business, kids today have no memory."

[skari123]

I originally titled this post "When should a student be allowed to quit piano?" but I realize this implies that students should be forced to play when they don't enjoy it which isn't what I intended. If this has already been discussed, please let me know which thread to search. I have read a few threads about quitting in general but not sure if this particular question has come up.

My general thought is that students should begin lessons around 6-9 years old and approach learning an instrument as another core subject such as math instead of approaching it as a hobby. I think some students quit piano too early and are not old enough to make such a decision. That said, after a certain point if they are not liking lessons and have tried different teachers, they should definitely not be forced to take lessons. I know it depends a lot on each individual student, but I wonder how you determine when it is reasonable for a young student to quit piano. My thought is maybe after 4 years, or once they have reached the level of playing some polyphonic works and pieces with pedal since after this point, they have probably learned enough piano to continue to pursue music on their own at a later point. I sometimes find that students like piano for the first 1-3 years but then lose motivation, so this 4-year mark seems like maybe enough time for them to really know.

Any thoughts on this topic would be appreciated. I might be delayed in replying though.

I think it depends on why the student is unmotivated. I have had lessons were the student had absolutely no interest for the piano or music in general. I have also had students eager to learn harder pieces but dread going through the elementary stuff. If you can see and sense that the student has completely given up on both music and the piano, that's when the kid should be allowed to quit. On the other hand, if the kid has some interest in music but not piano, maybe they need to change instruments? My point is that you can spot the students that are hopeless to teach, it shows in the way they respond to you, play for you and in the overall mood in the lesson. If you dread teaching the student and the student dreads going to your lessons, why bother teaching them at all?

[jaquet]

Im not a teacher so my opinion doesnt have as much weight but i think a student should quit when they have listened to a diverse range of composers and come to the conclusion that they simply dont like it or dont want to play it. I think a large issue with parents forcing their children to play is that they never get a chance to explore the music at all, and instead are just forced to learn very unmotivating grade pieces for years. Also if the student simply doesnt want to work- however i think this problem gets solved after the student starts loving music and not just playing.

[fignewton]

Thank you for your replies since I last logged in. I agree that the reason for the lack of motivation is important and being exposed to a wide variety of genres and instruments can definitely help reinvigorate enthusiasm. Jazz helped me get reinspired when I was a kid.

[lostinidlewonder]

Some lessons teachers give feel like this for unmotivated students:

1) I have to start learning this piece.

2) It's tough to get this right but I'll work on it even though I won't practice much.

3) I manage to play the work but that sure was a lot of effort, the teacher makes me repeat so much in lessons, it feels like a broken record.

4) I'm a little bored of this piece because ive played it for a few lessons already. It sounds OK but it's still an effort to play for me.

5) What? We starting a new piece now? Oh it's the same process, I don't really want to go through all that work again.

6) urg this is feeling like too much work, I don't really feel like practicing. Why am I at the bottom of the hill again, it's so much effort to climb up

7) ok made it, what the heck another piece now and at the bottom of the hill again? I'm over this.


I've found even the most unmotivated students somewhat get through work if that hill is not so difficult to surmount. Eventually though they lose interest and give up, but they get through a bit of work successfully before that and don't quit because it feels too hard. This makes coming back to piano in the future easier.

If students don't meet the teacher half way with some enthusiasm then the lessons die and they might as well do something else. The teacher has a high responsibility to keep the student engaged. But that feeling of work and always starting at the bottom of hill needs to be mitigated, it can't be completely and that pretty much is what makes them all quit. It is much more rare for a student to quit if the workload feels easy, they always do well and the music they create is engaging and useful for them.

[fignewton]

Thank you for your comment, LIIW. Yeah, I definitely agree that piano can feel like the Sisyphus rock scenario. The less motivated the student, the gentler the incline of that hill needs to be to sustain interest.

[jimboishere]

If students don't meet the teacher half way with some enthusiasm then the lessons die and they might as well do something else.

A really quotable phrase! In the end, if student is not interested in learning themselves, eventually they'll stop, since right now someone(usually family) is forcing them to do so.

[lark37]

I agree with the poster who said that a good piano teacher should be using different methods and genres to help keep students motivated. Many of my students come to me from other teachers who will not let them stray from the lesson books and/or classical genre. I wanted to quit piano so many times as a child because I was bored. My parents sought another teacher, and we found one who taught me so many valuable things as well as vocal training. She introduced me to chord progressions and playing from "lead sheets". She let me play some "pop" songs and Disney songs. I incorporate those things now into my teaching. I also play "music" themed games at the end of each lesson with my beginners up to around year 3. We usually take the last 5-6 minutes of a 45 minute piano lesson to play a game. I've made up a few myself, but I tend to get most of them from "Busy Little Turtle". This keeps the lesson more fun for younger ones who have trouble sitting still. The other thing OP mentioned that I disagree with is age to begin. Since I'm a firm believer in sight reading and not just memorizing music, I find that 7 is the best age to begin. I've had a few 6 year old students through the years that learned to play quite well and stuck with it, but they are few and far between. By age 7 most children have the fine motor skills, reading skills, and math skills necessary to learn an instrument. I also feel that music is not a "core" subject like math or reading, but music is and should be a part of American school systems. Our school system in my town in has excellent music programs in its schools. Piano shouldn't be forced on any child if they aren't truly interested in playing however. Forcing them to play is hard on everyone from the child to the parents and its especially hard on the teacher. 

[pantonality]

I agree with the poster who said that a good piano teacher should be using different methods and genres to help keep students motivated. Many of my students come to me from other teachers who will not let them stray from the lesson books and/or classical genre. I wanted to quit piano so many times as a child because I was bored. My parents sought another teacher, and we found one who taught me so many valuable things as well as vocal training. She introduced me to chord progressions and playing from "lead sheets". She let me play some "pop" songs and Disney songs. I incorporate those things now into my teaching. I also play "music" themed games at the end of each lesson with my beginners up to around year 3. We usually take the last 5-6 minutes of a 45 minute piano lesson to play a game. I've made up a few myself, but I tend to get most of them from "Busy Little Turtle". This keeps the lesson more fun for younger ones who have trouble sitting still. The other thing OP mentioned that I disagree with is age to begin. Since I'm a firm believer in sight reading and not just memorizing music, I find that 7 is the best age to begin. I've had a few 6 year old students through the years that learned to play quite well and stuck with it, but they are few and far between. By age 7 most children have the fine motor skills, reading skills, and math skills necessary to learn an instrument. I also feel that music is not a "core" subject like math or reading, but music is and should be a part of American school systems. Our school system in my town in has excellent music programs in its schools. Piano shouldn't be forced on any child if they aren't truly interested in playing however. Forcing them to play is hard on everyone from the child to the parents and its especially hard on the teacher.

I'm 70 but was the student who was allowed to quit around age 10 (after about 3 years of lessons), but went back to taking piano lessons as a freshman in college. This is the first response that rings true to me. My teacher was a strictly by the book classical music type and that was boring. Music is so much more, ear training, theory, improvisation, composition. No one asked my why I wanted to quit, or at least not in a way that allowed me to tell the truth. I was interested in music, but found reading laborious. I still can't sight read my way out of a paper bag. I do plenty of reading music now, but that's because that's the process of learning and playing pieces. It's called playing the piano and I believe more emphasis should be put on the play part. When I was in high school I wanted to play guitar, but my parents were reluctant to buy one because I had quit piano and they now had the impression I was a quitter. Fiftyfive to sixty years later I still play both.
If I was a teacher and had a student that wanted to quit I would have a heart to heart conversation that would start with a series of questions:
What do you find hard about playing piano?
Do you want to learn music and why (because it will make you popular at school?)?
Would you like to learn how to make up your own music?
Do you think playing a musical instrument will help you meet girls/boys?

My problem with reading music would have been significantly mitigated if I had stayed with it because we now know that there are times in brain development for building those connections and if you start too late the opportunity is lost. The same goes for building speed and ear training. You can teach relative pitch at any age, but perfect or absolute pitch needs to be learned before age 8 or so. I grew up in a musical family (my mother was an opera singer) so I was exposed to music from all of music history. I had that benefit in terms of ear training, but reading will forever be the bane of my existence. My advice is talk to your students about their motivation to quit or difficulty in finding motivation to stay with it. If they have zero interest in music, there's no point in continuing. If they are interested in music but find certain aspects difficult work with them to develop their strengths. That will give them the momentum to take on the harder stuff a bit later.

[lostinidlewonder]

A really quotable phrase! In the end, if student is not interested in learning themselves, eventually they'll stop, since right now someone(usually family) is forcing them to do so.

Right! I also see it like a game of golf where you hit the ball for the student and then drag them through the course lol. If the student is not willing or demonstrates a real lack of interest to do piano then it's always a losing battle.

On another note I think as teachers we need to be somewhat open as to the many ways in which piano can be approached and work with our students strengths. When I teach 4 year olds they usually are not interested in sight reading or reading music but they do a lot better just listening, copying, not viewing piano in an abstract manner. Sure we can do a little bit of reading here and there but predominantly we work with their strengths! Some kids absolutely love apps so why not utilize some of that in lessons if it engages them so? I think many teachers are very close minded, stringent teachers stuck in a little box of teaching which is comfortable for them and then they wonder why an otherwise motivated student become disillusioned with piano and quits.