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Topic: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas (Read 1182 times)

softbn

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Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

What do you think what tempo bpm Beethoven tempest sonata 1st movement allegro parts should be played at?

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lelle

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 01:32:12 PM

Quote from: softbn on May 20, 2024, 06:51:10 AM

Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

I'm not sure this is true. My impression is that many things were played faster back in the day. If you listen to early 20th century recordings they're often moving at a brisker pace than many (not all) modern recordings. Especially pieces with slow tempos such as Adagios.

A good guideline for tempo is whatever tempo the melodies are comfortable and natural to sing at. If you are playing "fast" but the melody seems slow, and each phrase difficult to feel in one breath, it's probably a bit too slow.

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kosulin

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #2 on: May 21, 2024, 08:00:14 PM

In 1817 Beethoven wrote: ‘Was kann widersinniger seyn als Allegro welches ein für allemal Lustig heißt, u. wie weit entfernt sind wir oft von diesem Begriffe dieses Zeitmaaßes, so daß das Stück selbst das Gegentheil der Bezeichnung sagt.’

"What can be more absurd than ‘Allegro’, which once and for all means merry/funny, and how very far away we often are from this conception of tempo, so much so that the piece itself says the very opposite of the indication."

You might want to look into thesis "Beethoven’s Tempo Indications" by Marten Noorduin where he analyses tempo marks provided by Beethoven and his contemporaries/pupils such as Czerny. It can be downloaded for free as pdf.

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Vlad

psipsi8

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #3 on: May 23, 2024, 07:15:34 AM

160 BPM for a quarter note is a good speed in my opinion for the first movement.

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kosulin

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #4 on: May 23, 2024, 04:03:09 PM

Quote from: softbn on May 20, 2024, 06:51:10 AM

Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

Barry Cooper wrote that while Czerny metronome marks for Beethoven often seem on the fast side, and although a few are plainly erroneous, other seem fast mainly because speeds in music generally tended to slow down during the decades after his (Beethoven) death, so that people became accustomed to hearing much of music at a slightly slower pace than he intended, in both quick and slow movements.

One hint can be be seen in Hammerklavier where Beethoven provided tempo marks that Tovey commented on as impossible (at least in Allegro if I am not mistaken) while Czerny wrote that they are the cause of difficulty and the need for attentive practice. I.e. for him they were just not easy.

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Vlad

kosulin

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #5 on: May 23, 2024, 04:15:15 PM

One more note - mechanical metronome as we know it was invented only during late Beethoven, around 1814-1816, and we cannot say for sure how its readings match the modern standard. What if his or Czerny metronomes were broken because of some abuse or spring defect, for example?
Sonnleitner wrote that some Czery metronome marks for dances are twice as fast as those used in dancing instruction books published during his lifetime.

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Vlad

kosulin

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Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #6 on: May 23, 2024, 05:24:49 PM

Quote from: psipsi8 on May 23, 2024, 07:15:34 AM

160 BPM for a quarter note is a good speed in my opinion for the first movement.

Cooper recommendations for op. 31-2:
Largo 88-100 ♩
Allegro - 104-112 𝅗𝅥, i.e. 208-224 ♩
Adagio - 84-92 ♩
Allegretto - 76-88 ♩

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Vlad

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