Piano Forum

Piano Street Magazine:
The Quiet Revolutionary of the Piano – Fauré’s Complete Piano Works Now on Piano Street

In the pantheon of French music, Gabriel Fauré (1845–1924) often seems a paradox—an innovator cloaked in restraint, a Romantic by birth who shaped the contours of modern French music with quiet insistence. Piano Street now provides sheet music for his complete piano works: a body of music that resists spectacle, even as it brims with invention and brilliance. Read more

Pages: [1] Go Down

Topic: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas (Read 2754 times)

softbn

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 34

Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

on: May 20, 2024, 06:51:10 AM

Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

What do you think what tempo bpm Beethoven tempest sonata 1st movement allegro parts should be played at?

Logged

lelle

PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2680

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 01:32:12 PM

Quote from: softbn on May 20, 2024, 06:51:10 AM

Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

I'm not sure this is true. My impression is that many things were played faster back in the day. If you listen to early 20th century recordings they're often moving at a brisker pace than many (not all) modern recordings. Especially pieces with slow tempos such as Adagios.

A good guideline for tempo is whatever tempo the melodies are comfortable and natural to sing at. If you are playing "fast" but the melody seems slow, and each phrase difficult to feel in one breath, it's probably a bit too slow.

Logged

kosulin

PS Silver Member
Full Member
Posts: 171

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #2 on: May 21, 2024, 08:00:14 PM

In 1817 Beethoven wrote: ‘Was kann widersinniger seyn als Allegro welches ein für allemal Lustig heißt, u. wie weit entfernt sind wir oft von diesem Begriffe dieses Zeitmaaßes, so daß das Stück selbst das Gegentheil der Bezeichnung sagt.’

"What can be more absurd than ‘Allegro’, which once and for all means merry/funny, and how very far away we often are from this conception of tempo, so much so that the piece itself says the very opposite of the indication."

You might want to look into thesis "Beethoven’s Tempo Indications" by Marten Noorduin where he analyses tempo marks provided by Beethoven and his contemporaries/pupils such as Czerny. It can be downloaded for free as pdf.

Logged

Vlad

psipsi8

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 69

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #3 on: May 23, 2024, 07:15:34 AM

160 BPM for a quarter note is a good speed in my opinion for the first movement.

Logged

kosulin

PS Silver Member
Full Member
Posts: 171

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #4 on: May 23, 2024, 04:03:09 PM

Quote from: softbn on May 20, 2024, 06:51:10 AM

Hello. FAIK In the past great composers used to play “slower” than we do. Presto was played like allegro and so on.

Barry Cooper wrote that while Czerny metronome marks for Beethoven often seem on the fast side, and although a few are plainly erroneous, other seem fast mainly because speeds in music generally tended to slow down during the decades after his (Beethoven) death, so that people became accustomed to hearing much of music at a slightly slower pace than he intended, in both quick and slow movements.

One hint can be be seen in Hammerklavier where Beethoven provided tempo marks that Tovey commented on as impossible (at least in Allegro if I am not mistaken) while Czerny wrote that they are the cause of difficulty and the need for attentive practice. I.e. for him they were just not easy.

Logged

Vlad

kosulin

PS Silver Member
Full Member
Posts: 171

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #5 on: May 23, 2024, 04:15:15 PM

One more note - mechanical metronome as we know it was invented only during late Beethoven, around 1814-1816, and we cannot say for sure how its readings match the modern standard. What if his or Czerny metronomes were broken because of some abuse or spring defect, for example?
Sonnleitner wrote that some Czery metronome marks for dances are twice as fast as those used in dancing instruction books published during his lifetime.

Logged

Vlad

kosulin

PS Silver Member
Full Member
Posts: 171

Re: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas

Reply #6 on: May 23, 2024, 05:24:49 PM

Quote from: psipsi8 on May 23, 2024, 07:15:34 AM

160 BPM for a quarter note is a good speed in my opinion for the first movement.

Cooper recommendations for op. 31-2:
Largo 88-100 ♩
Allegro - 104-112 𝅗𝅥, i.e. 208-224 ♩
Adagio - 84-92 ♩
Allegretto - 76-88 ♩

Logged

Vlad

Sign-up to post reply

Pages: [1] Go Up

For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
Piano Street’s Top Picks of 2025

We wish you a Happy New Year and present our annual selection of highly recommended reading from Piano Street. These are the most read, discussed, and shared articles of 2025, highlighting what resonated most with readers across the year’s defining moments in the piano world. Read more

Piano Forum

Piano Street Magazine:The Quiet Revolutionary of the Piano – Fauré’s Complete Piano Works Now on Piano Street

Topic: Allegro in Beethoven sonatas (Read 2754 times)

Piano Street Magazine:Piano Street’s Top Picks of 2025

Piano Street Magazine:
The Quiet Revolutionary of the Piano – Fauré’s Complete Piano Works Now on Piano Street

Piano Street Magazine:
Piano Street’s Top Picks of 2025