Adult student: Teacher said I can't have good technique

[novatramp]

I'm an adult student and have been playing for 5ish years, the last 3 with the same teacher.  One of the things he requires is Czerny studies, which I assume is meant to build technique.  We had a discussion recently about the study that I'm working on and cannot get up to tempo.  I said that I think my technique looks bad, playing with fingers instead of arms, etc., and I wonder if we should work more on technique.  His response was essentially, "you won't develop good technique because you didn't learn as a child with small hands."  I asked if I'll ever be able to play these exercises well with bad technique and he said "a lot of great pianists have bad technique." 

I'm hoping some teachers will see this and give some input on the issues here.  I can accept that there are limitations to learning as an adult, but why am I working on studies that I'll never be able to play well with bad technique? 

I can show a video example for clarification, but it's pretty embarrassingly bad. 

[brogers70]

You might want to change teachers. I started at 40 (now at 66), self taught, and developed a lousy, tense technique. After having several teachers who did not help very much, I found one who started me right from the beginning with wrist drop exercises, two-note slurs, very slow scales, etc. It took a couple of years, but my technique became much more comfortable and relaxed. For the last few years I've been giving yearly house recitals and playing in churches and nursing homes. I can't play the real technical virtuoso stuff, but I've performed a bunch of Bach from WTC and the Suites, a couple of Beethoven sonatas (Op 2 #1 and 14#1), lots of late Brahms, the Schubert Op 90 Intermezzi, etc. A good teacher makes all the difference in the world. There are lots of teachers who've run across adult learners who want to play Traumerei or the Moonlight Sonata 1st movement and want to get right to it, and give up on the basics, so there can be a certain bias against adult students in some quarters. But several teachers who post here have had adult students who've progressed very far relatively fast. It's not impossible.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sometimes certain inexperienced teachers choose repertoire which has too many challenges to overcome for the student and then blame the student rather than their careless choice of repertoire. There is no reason why you cannot be built up slowly with appropriate repertoire that has some challenged but ultimately you can control it in good time. Being forced to do Czerny makes me think your teacher has rather claustrophobic repertoire choices in his lessons.

Some inexperienced teacher might be only used to teaching talented students who can jump through whatever hoops they set, as soon as they come across a student who has difficulties they blame the student rather than their own inability to help. As a mature aged student you need to enjoy music not feel like the main experience is constantly climbing a hill. From the joy you will relax, from relaxing you will improve better.

[novatramp]

Thanks for the replies, some good things to consider. 

[dizzyfingers]

I'm an adult student and have been playing for 5ish years, the last 3 with the same teacher.  One of the things he requires is Czerny studies, which I assume is meant to build technique.  We had a discussion recently about the study that I'm working on and cannot get up to tempo.  I said that I think my technique looks bad, playing with fingers instead of arms, etc., and I wonder if we should work more on technique.  His response was essentially, "you won't develop good technique because you didn't learn as a child with small hands."  I asked if I'll ever be able to play these exercises well with bad technique and he said "a lot of great pianists have bad technique." 
I'm hoping some teachers will see this and give some input on the issues here.  I can accept that there are limitations to learning as an adult, but why am I working on studies that I'll never be able to play well with bad technique? 
I can show a video example for clarification, but it's pretty embarrassingly bad.

When he said " a lot of great pianists have bad technique" I would have asked him what good technique is.
Ask him to tell you and ask him to show you. 
And ask him often - with the Czerny and every technically challenging passage.
In my opinion, he's completely wrong.   A late comer to piano can develop good technique.    However, just as with athletic activity, if you're starting in your 50's having never done much, you may experience limitations and muscular ailments, but if you're quite young, 30's perhaps?, it should be fine.

Which Czerny were you working on?

[novatramp]

When he said " a lot of great pianists have bad technique" I would have asked him what good technique is.
Ask him to tell you and ask him to show you. 
And ask him often - with the Czerny and every technically challenging passage.
In my opinion, he's completely wrong.   A late comer to piano can develop good technique.    However, just as with athletic activity, if you're starting in your 50's having never done much, you may experience limitations and muscular ailments, but if you're quite young, 30's perhaps?, it should be fine.

Which Czerny were you working on?

Long response incoming. 

When I first started with the teacher we worked through Hutcheson's 'Elements of Piano Technique', but primarily in an academic way, e.g. not really applying the techniques other than the given exercises.  He's made comments at times like 'you're using your fingers too much'.  I understand how good technique works and I can see when someone has good finger independence, hand structure, and arm weight.  I record everything I play on a weekly basis so I can see the deficiencies.  I can also feel the tension and my hand working against itself.  He can demonstrate good technique by playing through things I'm working on and I can see the difference in how he plays it. 

I realize that piano progress is measured in decades so 5 years isn't much.  I also understand that age is a limiting factor and technique develops as a natural by-product of playing a lot.  But I'm an adult so I understand the concept of 'work smarter, not harder'.  So when we get stuck on a Czerny exercise for months (the current one is going on 2 months), because technical deficiencies are causing problems, I start wondering if the exercise is supposed to develop the technique or if the exercise is impossible without technique. 

With my last lesson I said "let's talk about these 2 measures that I'm struggling with" and we had a good discussion about how to approach them so maybe the problem will be solved when I insist upon it. 

The Czerny exercise is Op. 139, #83 and I'm trying to get it up to 120 bpm.  The tension starts at around 100 bpm and I can play through it at 105-110 but it gets uneven and just generally sloppy sounding. 

[dizzyfingers]

I understand how good technique works and I can see when someone has good finger independence, hand structure, and arm weight.  He can demonstrate good technique by playing through things I'm working on and I can see the difference in how he plays it. 

So when we get stuck on a Czerny exercise for months (the current one is going on 2 months), because technical deficiencies are causing problems, I start wondering if the exercise is supposed to develop the technique or if the exercise is impossible without technique. 

The Czerny exercise is Op. 139, #83 and I'm trying to get it up to 120 bpm.  The tension starts at around 100 bpm and I can play through it at 105-110 but it gets uneven and just generally sloppy sounding.

Has he suggested you play the entire etude staccato?

Not sure setting a time limit like that (2 months is not very long to me) on your pieces is a wise idea, unless your teacher, who knows your abilities, well, said it should take you that amount of time.
I only practice Czerny a few times a week, or less, but the harder Czerny studies can take me 4-5 months easily, to get up to tempo and ready to perform.

What do you think of this video:

[novatramp]

Has he suggested you play the entire etude staccato?

Not sure setting a time limit like that (2 months is not very long to me) on your pieces is a wise idea, unless your teacher, who knows your abilities, well, said it should take you that amount of time.
I only practice Czerny a few times a week, or less, but the harder Czerny studies can take me 4-5 months easily, to get up to tempo and ready to perform.

What do you think of this video:

I usually check with 2 youtube channels for reference and the video you posted is one of them.  The other is a channel named Kawaz who has playthroughs for all of Op 139.

I'm just starting this week on practicing staccato.  It's like my fingers aren't active enough and I get blurring.  Yes I'm playing too much from fingers but my fingers aren't active enough (collapsed bridge playing from the 2nd knuckle instead of 3rd). 

You bring up an interesting point about time limits.  We started at #1 of Op 139 around 3 years ago and have gone through each one in order.  So I suppose 83 etudes in 3 years can be thought of as a lot.  I think what starts grinding on me is, a) I still have the first 2 years with my first teacher in memory where Alfred's 1-3 went by pretty fast and pieces didn't take a long time, b) I have no frame of reference for how long these etudes should take, c) I don't perform any of these at recitals.  My repertoire for recitals is usually quite a bit easier.  The point being, Czerny and Hanon are the vegetables to eat before dessert and I'm eating a LOT of vegetables. 

Appreciate the responses.     

[dizzyfingers]

I'm just starting this week on practicing staccato.

Appreciate the responses.     

If he didn't suggest practicing Czerny staccato, and demo it, I would have some doubts about your teacher's ability to teach technique. 

[keypeg]

Pure and simple, this guy doesn't know how to teach.   Find another teacher.

[keypeg]

The point being, Czerny and Hanon are the vegetables to eat before dessert and I'm eating a LOT of vegetables. 

Pieces don't teach.  Teachers (who actually teach) teach.  It's not a magical thing where if you play through a set of etudes or pieces, that in itself will create your technique.  Czerny himself did not teach that way.

[dizzyfingers]

Pieces don't teach.  Teachers (who actually teach) teach.  It's not a magical thing where if you play through a set of etudes or pieces, that in itself will create your technique.  Czerny himself did not teach that way.

How did Czerny teach?

[lostinidlewonder]

I'd say dotted rhythms for strings of notes are more useful than staccato.

[pianistavt]

I'd say dotted rhythms for strings of notes are more useful than staccato.

I’d say apply both and a couple other techniques

[lostinidlewonder]

I’d say apply both and a couple other techniques

I'm just comparing the two approaches. Plenty of other practice tools to use, feel free to suggest them.

[jaquet]

Your teacher isnt wrong but thats a cheap response to a issue, I would advise looking for a better teacher or ask a perhaps more specific question, alot of these teachers are very unclear with their response when rather generally used but largely undefined words like piano technique are used. Of course every pianist has their struggles so its just a part of piano playing. Im sure if you keep working at this etude ull get it too speed .