Octaves in k331 variation 3

[igot331questions]

Hi all!

I have inspected the original manuscript in Mozart's 11th sonata and have a question.

These bars appear as such in most versions (variation 3):


But in Mozart's hand they are:


My question - should these definitely be played as octave passages? Doesn't the "8 ----" simply mean to play an octave higher than written? I have never seen that being used to indicate octaves. I'm not familiar with reading hand-written historical manuscripts, and I can see he is taking a shortcut on the left hand by using some dashes to indicate that it's the previous group of notes repeated, but how can we know that the "8 ----" line is shorthand for octaves and not shorthand for just raising it up an octave instead?

These are so hard to play fluidly - I would love Mozart's seal of approval to be able to "cheat" 

[igot331questions]

Also it must use a different clef because the notes are on a different line. I'm really struggling to see what clef it is because it isn't alto or tenor and there's nothing obvious in the manuscript.

Here is what I'm looking at if anyone want to take a look.
https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP781445-PMLP1846-Ms_Mus_15289.pdf

[dizzyfingers]

don't see discussion of manuscripts on here very much

i'm sure somehow someone will take an interest ...

 

[andhow04]

wow interesting find, it seems he wrote the entire right hand part in soprano clef. there is a symbol, where the soprano clef is usually centered, that must be some version of that. you'll notice that his symbol for bass clef, is the reverse image of the one we use. i almost wish editions would keep it in soprano clef, it makes it more interesting somehow.

the 8 could easily be his shorthand for adding octaves (like he used the repeat sign as shorthand for the left hand). if the octaves show up in the first printed edition i would imagine that would confirm it.

bring back the original clefs!

[andhow04]

just for fun i looked at the manuscript on IMSLP for Ah vous dirais-je Maman variations, and the right hand there is in the treble clef. so now i really want to know, under what circumstances did he use soprano clef. there is shorthand in thsi manuscript, since the last phrase of every variation is a repetition of the first, he just scribbles Da capo and adds a "Fine" at the end of the first phrase.