When are you able to tell good piano playing from bad piano playing?

[orgarnic]

I don't know why, but some renditions of pieces sort of sound the same to me (if we're not talking about interpretation or the difference in sound between the synthesia videos and real performances).  Also, when someone composes a piece, such as on this platform, observers can detect what emotions or ideas the piece is trying to convey, while all I hear is "good" music. Is it because I'm just a beginner, or can you train your ear to detect such differences?

[thorn]

"Good" and "bad" are in most cases subjective terms. We live in a world of critics, adjudicators, examiners and this can sometimes create a sense that "good" and "bad" are objective terms. Of course if I got a crowd of non-musicians to compare a recording of Cziffra's La Campanella with a recording of an intermediate level pianist trying to sight read it, there'd be an objective difference even they would be able to notice. But when the question becomes "which is the best professional recording of La Campanella", even a crowd of top-level pianists and music critics would give you different answers.

As for composition, that's a different ball game altogether. You can train yourself to tell whether a piece is well constructed by studying professional compositions- not just listening but analysing the score and how they use material- but as for understanding the emotions/ideas the composer is trying to convey that's a subjective thing again. And sometimes it's a taste thing- I recently had a conversation with a non-musician who went to a piano recital of Bach and Rachmaninoff. She said that the Bach had no emotion, it felt like a meditation and the point of his music was to avoid emotion, however the Rachmaninoff was very intense and felt like it was emotionally taxing on the pianist. And this was a non-musician, there are many musicians who also feel more emotional connection to Rachmaninoff than Bach. But is this an objective difference in the music itself, or a matter of taste? (For me, the latter)

[ranjit]

I don't know why, but some renditions of pieces sort of sound the same to me (if we're not talking about interpretation or the difference in sound between the synthesia videos and real performances).  Also, when someone composes a piece, such as on this platform, observers can detect what emotions or ideas the piece is trying to convey, while all I hear is "good" music. Is it because I'm just a beginner, or can you train your ear to detect such differences?

I believe that it can be trained. A lot of listening goes into it though.

[dizzyfingers]

I don't know why, but some renditions of pieces sort of sound the same to me. 
All I hear is "good" music.
Is it because I'm just a beginner, or can you train your ear to detect such differences?

Yes it is because you are a  "beginner" - you're ear is not highly trained - it takes years of listening to train your ear. 

https://www.classicstoday.com

Watching DH's vlogs on YT may help you think about what you're listening to... and talk about it.
There's a language-listening connection here, being able to articulate what you're hearing is part of the process.
Listening to different pianists play the same piece and thinking (writing, even better) about how they differ would be a good exercise.

[lelle]

I don't know why, but some renditions of pieces sort of sound the same to me (if we're not talking about interpretation or the difference in sound between the synthesia videos and real performances).  Also, when someone composes a piece, such as on this platform, observers can detect what emotions or ideas the piece is trying to convey, while all I hear is "good" music. Is it because I'm just a beginner, or can you train your ear to detect such differences?

Yes. Some of it comes down to taste. But the more about performing, interpretation, technique, theory etc you learn, the more detailed a measuring stick you have when evaluating recordings. It's not really "objective" but the more you learn, the more your understanding aligns with established musical ideals and idioms, if that makes sense.

[essence]

A lot can be learned by listening to articulation. Is it legato or staccato? Is the staccato precise, if repeated staccato are they all  the same articulation, or is there a variation? if a variation, does it make musical sense?

When legato, is it truly legato? Are the notes even? Legato without pedal?

Let's take an example el Albaicin. Notes are difficult enough, but playing it well is almost impossible.

Master class below. Some of my additional comments.

Around 20:30, hands are not together.

At the start, the RH is not quite precise enough, particularly at last semiquaver of a beat.

Etc.



.

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In comparison, the opening bars of the following are excellent; but some other sections I am less happy with - seems he lost stamina?

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Rafael Orozco is supreme, apart from of course alicia de larrocha.

Now the question is whether you can detect the difference in eminence between these recordings?

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I like the way he does a cross rhythm at 4:400 onwards. Let me check the score. Yes the F is marked in the score, at many bars, and it brings a swing to it. How many pianists observe this?

It goes without saying that balance is one of the hardest things about this piece and is one which only the very professionals can manage. So many notes, but they have to allow the tenor melody to shine through.

[ranjit]

Yes. Some of it comes down to taste. But the more about performing, interpretation, technique, theory etc you learn, the more detailed a measuring stick you have when evaluating recordings. It's not really "objective" but the more you learn, the more your understanding aligns with established musical ideals and idioms, if that makes sense.

I would say it's not a matter of taste to be able to hear the differences. That is objective. To decide whether or not they are musically better or worse is the part where subjectivity comes in.

[lelle]

I would say it's not a matter of taste to be able to hear the differences. That is objective. To decide whether or not they are musically better or worse is the part where subjectivity comes in.

Yes exactly, that's what I meant but maybe it was unclear.

[ranjit]

Yes exactly, that's what I meant but maybe it was unclear.

I think it's different. You said that the more you learn, the more your "objective" understanding tends to align with established ideas. I don't disagree, but what I was saying was that irrespective of that, the differences between multiple recordings in terms of pitch, rhythm, volume, tempo, rubato etc. is clearly measurable, so the ability to listen in theory doesn't depend on musical sensibility. That said, they kind of do go hand in hand but you see exceptions where people have insane perfect pitch but don't sound musical.

To the OP - I just had an idea. Slow down the recordings and listen to phrasing, i.e. how each performer sings the melody. This can be hard at tempo if you're not used to listening intently. Listen at 50% or even 25% (if it's not too garbled), then speed it back up once you have an idea of what's going on.

[essence]

I agree with Ranjit. Musicianship and technical quality are different. Old pianists may not have the technical fluidity but are worth listening for musicality. Similar for amateurs.

There are many who are technically excellent, that is objective and you can easily spot someone who is not. Musicianship is much more a matter of taste.

[ted]

When I was young I thought I could make such distinctions easily and clearly. With increasing age, however, the conviction gradually receded until now, at seventy-eight, I feel I know next to nothing about quality in either playing or music generally. The issue for me personally is that as an improviser playing and creation are inextricably tangled. Worse than that, I can think something is good one day and bad the next. Also there is the complication that a player whose technique is glaringly lacking in accepted terms frequently produces transcendent music quite beyond the scope of highly trained executants.

So all in all I tend to caution the original poster from seeking analytically rigid answers of any sort to this deep question.

[lostinidlewonder]

Listen while reading the sheet music. Paying attention to detail is a hallmark of excellent playing, we should trust composers did give ample instructions to perform their music with the correct vision. From that you may add interpretation. I think similar to great literature, a good book or musical playing is entertaining and enjoyable, but something that's masterful and profound changes the way in which you perceive something

[jonathannyc]

"Good" versus "Bad" is, of course, a battleground for self-appointed critics. The more we actively listen, and the more repertoire we personally get our hands on and master, the better we can discern subtleties in the playing of other pianists. I try to avoid judging in favor of appreciating what other pianists present. Their interpretations might be quite different from mine, but that does not make them 'bad'; they simply present a different perspective, and maybe I can learn from that.

Utterly clumsy playing riddled with wrong notes, that bulldozes over any trace of musicality, will not pass as 'good' piano playing. But in concert halls or commercial recordings, you are not likely to encounter that because the road to public performance is so fiercely competitive that those players were side-lined very far back in the process.

_______________
https://www.bakerpianolessons.com/


 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Honestly, as long as the playing is decently accurate and I like the interpretation, I don't really care if others consider it "good" or "bad." It's subjective, anyway.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think in terms of just listening sure it's utterly subjective what you find good or bad. But if we are to adjudicate or mark an examination there are ways to appraise a % mark for the performance. It certainly requires understanding the composer and genre of music as well as careful attention to the scores detail, this reduces subjectivity and great deal even thought some personal judgement is still required. Some less effective adjudicators come with a bad dose of bais which is not so uncommon unfortunately.

[orgarnic]

Usually when I listen to piano playing, I just put it in the background while I study or something else. I don't really pay attention to it that much, so I guess that's the reason for my lack of listening expertise.

[lelle]

Usually when I listen to piano playing, I just put it in the background while I study or something else. I don't really pay attention to it that much, so I guess that's the reason for my lack of listening expertise.

And that's fine! There is no right and wrong, if you enjoy it you enjoy it.

[dizzyfingers]

Usually when I listen to piano playing, I just put it in the background while I study or something else. I don't really pay attention to it that much...

As a young student, I was listening to lots of solo and concerti repertoire, gobbling it all up with fascinated focus.  After those ten years of lessons and listening, age 12-22, it was next to impossible to not listen carefully to piano music.  Eventually as a working adult, I was more relaxed about it, and wanted to sample new repertoire, which by necessity was more fringe - something like Shostakovich' preludes/fugues or Mompou's piano works - and I would play them while driving or doing something, and could easily not listen carefully, and it wouldn't matter much.

So maybe, organic, we're back to your question about learning advanced piano without a teacher....

[essence]

Sometimes, when playing an organ piece in a public service, my teacher would take over and continue it, so that he could bring it to proper conclusion when the procession had completed. My improvisation skills were (and are) non-existent.

It sounded subjectively different (and much better). But at that stage I had no idea WHY it sounded so much better. For a performer, the WHY matters. For a listener, maybe not so much, and maybe critical listening gets in the way of enjoyment.

[orgarnic]

So maybe, organic, we're back to your question about learning advanced piano without a teacher....

Wait what? When did I ever say this? Not to offend you or anything, but I'm pretty sure the only threads I've created are in the "Anything but Piano" board and another one titled "pianissimo".

[essence]

Let me muse a little. Just been repairing a small section of a wall where the render had come off due to damp. So I thought I would try to repair myself. No prior experience in plastering.

It ended up OK, but not to a professional level. Took me 10 times as long as a professional. I now see all kinds of imperfections elsewhere which had not previously bothered me. Had other members of the family offering me their 'constructive' comments.

It was all about critical looking, and then failures at correcting the flaws. Many corrections made it worse. Bit of teaching from the internet, but all those teaching videos were demos from experts who couldn't teach a beginner anything. All the walls in videos were flat to start with.

One video was from a beginner being trained by an expert. That was useful.

For the rest of my life I will be looking at plastering flaws in walls. Sigh. I don't think I will spend the next 3 months practising, which is what experts do.

Same with tiling. There is me, there are decorators who do a bit of tiling, and there are tiling experts. I can tell the difference.

[dizzyfingers]

Let me muse a little. Just been repairing a small section of a wall where the render had come off due to damp. So I thought I would try to repair myself. No prior experience in plastering.

It ended up OK, but not to a professional level. Took me 10 times as long as a professional. I now see all kinds of imperfections elsewhere which had not previously bothered me. Had other members of the family offering me their 'constructive' comments.

It was all about critical looking, and then failures at correcting the flaws. Many corrections made it worse. Bit of teaching from the internet, but all those teaching videos were demos from experts who couldn't teach a beginner anything. All the walls in videos were flat to start with.

One video was from a beginner being trained by an expert. That was useful.

For the rest of my life I will be looking at plastering flaws in walls. Sigh. I don't think I will spend the next 3 months practising, which is what experts do.

Same with tiling. There is me, there are decorators who do a bit of tiling, and there are tiling experts. I can tell the difference.

There's a thread called WHAT DID I LEARN TODAY
Perhaps your post would be more appreciated there, if not appreciated, then at least more appropriately categorized.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=70622.msg741533;topicseen#msg741533

[dizzyfingers]

Wait what? When did I ever say this? Not to offend you or anything, but I'm pretty sure the only threads I've created are in the "Anything but Piano" board and another one titled "pianissimo".

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=72364.msg741175#msg741175

Sorry, NOT created by you.
I think it's because your two first posts came out at about the same time.

[essence]

There's a thread called WHAT DID I LEARN TODAY
Perhaps your post would be more appreciated there, if not appreciated, then at least more appropriately categorized.

I disagree. My post was directly relevant here, it was talking about good v. bad.

[dizzyfingers]

I disagree. My post was directly relevant here, it was talking about good v. bad.

Is the original post about good vs bad in a general or in a particular application, say, PIANO PLAYING ??

[essence]

Stop being obsessive.

My post was about learning from teachers, looking/listening, practice, self-criticism, minute attention to detail, all the things which have an input into good v. bad piano playing.

Piano playing is not as special as you may think, these disciplines are key to a wide range of skills.

I had an organ teacher once who taught me for a month how to play a single note. It would have been just the same to have a decorator teacher teaching me for a month how to plaster. The former involves listening, the latter involves looking. They both deal with repetitive physical movements in arms and hands.

Violin teachers may spend many months teaching how to play a single note. Is sliding a bow across a string so different to sliding a trowel across plaster?

No, the techniques of music playing are not so special. Get over it.

I once had a piano teacher who would say thigs like 'play more musically'. It was meaningless. She never gave the detailed feedback I needed.

[essence]

I don't think anybody has analysed the performances of El Albaicin in the three videos I posted. The last was by a world class pianist, the first by a moderate student. Can anybody say exactly why one is good playing, the other is mediocre? In detail? It may help the OP.

[dizzyfingers]

Stop being obsessive.

My post was about learning from teachers, looking/listening, practice, self-criticism, minute attention to detail, all the things which have an input into good v. bad piano playing.

Piano playing is not as special as you may think, these disciplines are key to a wide range of skills.

I had an organ teacher once who taught me for a month how to play a single note. It would have been just the same to have a decorator teacher teaching me for a month how to plaster. The former involves listening, the latter involves looking. They both deal with repetitive physical movements in arms and hands.

Violin teachers may spend many months teaching how to play a single note. Is sliding a bow across a string so different to sliding a trowel across plaster?

No, the techniques of music playing are not so special. Get over it.

I once had a piano teacher who would say thigs like 'play more musically'. It was meaningless. She never gave the detailed feedback I needed.

Sorry if I upset you, I was playing a bit of the cantankerous nerdy logician, primarily for effect
(... perhaps a commentary on some of the posts I see here ...)

Worthy and useful reply though !

[essence]

Thanks! I can be a bit sensitive sometimes.