Where goes the line between influence and imitation ?

[willcowskitz]

I'll start out by saying that yes, every composer has been influenced by other composers. Whether they realized it or not.

My dilemma is, where exactly would the line between plagiarism and having been purely inspired and therefore influenced by someone, go?

Of course, there's no copyright to C major scale, but if one is improvising on C major, he's destined to encounter some patterns that have already been used, possibly over and over again in different contexts.

If one has listened to a lot of music, and been inspired by it, is it possible that certain patterns of music become concepts of feelings? When you're improvising, you're listening to these feelings, and your mind articulates them into these patterns, leaving you as a mere data *transferring* unit.

This reminds me of ummm... Alfred Brendel saying something about "mastering the score's details in order to be free" (I read it on another thread, not sure about the content).  Do we have to hear all music in the world to be free of being mere plagiators?  Or is there only space for certain amount of music to exist and affect our feelings simultaneously, at time, and depending on what our inner world is going through, we build this "repertoire" from among all the music we've ever heard, and use it as a vocabulary to articulate our feelings?

If you realize you're using an already existing pattern, and can immediately point out the most probable source of it, do you still not hesitate to use it in your music?  It of course depends on the "context" of the musical thought, but what is the scope of the scale we observe as a "context" each time?  Will we think of that particular pattern as an independent musical thought, or is it one beat, or a passage, or the movement in whole? 

How do I know I'm creating something new and not just building variations of the old?  Do I just have to become self-conscious enough to judge this by the structure of the composition; from where did it arrive to this particular point, to where is it going to lead, what is the exact role of these notes regarding the whole...

This dilemma is actually quite depressing because it again reminds me of the setting that our humans' minds are only mirrors that reflect the external world. No matter what the complexity of the positions or the number of mirrors is, it does disturb me to feel like a plain gathering point of external signals.

On a more pragmatic note, where does everyone consider the line goes, or what do you do when you realize you've possibly been subliminally, unconsciously "copy-pasteing" melody?  Do you keep going and accept it as it is - a significant part of your composition - or abandon it and try to find another route for writing your feelings on paper?

[Daevren]

...

[Daevren]

I would say, non-existent.

[ted]

I agree with Daevren; it's just an argument about semantics. Copy what you like, ignore what you like, enjoy yourself.

[Daevren]

Yes, don't break your head on this.

Just write music, then hope its good. If not, too bad. But at least you did something and learned alot. So try again!

[willcowskitz]

Plus, I had an interesting discussion about this with someone from Sibelius academy yesterday.  I suppose everyone "imitated" at first and then allowed their styles to refine.  It is a bit difficult for me to accept some of the ideas as "my own" when I at the same time realize where they actually originate from in my head, but I guess I must allow myself to be influenced and inspirated by others in order to produce music that would rather follow them and not precede.

Thanks for the replies, I feel a little more encouraged.

[rodrk352]

Do we have to hear all music in the world to be free of being mere plagiators?

How do I know I'm creating something new and not just building variations of the old?

This dilemma is actually quite depressing ... On a more pragmatic note, where does everyone consider the line goes, or what do you do when you realize you've possibly been subliminally, unconsciously "copy-pasteing" melody?

     The more music you are familiar with by great composers of the past, the more likely you will spot a theme that reminds you of somebody else's work. Some modern songwriters are real rip-off artists and they are consciously doing it. Other times it is unconscious.
     I can't find the quote, but Schumann said that all composers start off as imitators. He compared them to fountains that gush out water that has already been recycled over and over again through the pipes. Only after much work and constant refining does the water become fresh and original.   
     Idolizing a particular composer's work can be a detriment. Eventually you want to find your own voice. This is the same for any creative artist. You don't want to look back at your own work and find too many echos of some other person's style or ideas. Mussorgsky said he only appreciated the musical innovators who forged important new paths. In the long run, those are the only composers who matter.