Old Bosendorfer (Viennese action): rebuild or go digital?

[goose]

I am the proud owner of a small Bosendorfer grand. It’s in pretty good shape and I love its tone. It holds its tuning reasonably well but the soundboard is cracked (a problem I solved by placing my copy of Infinite Jest inside, just left of the bass strings!). It was built in 1889 which makes her rather the grandma. But I knew what I was getting when I bought it (for only slightly more than it cost to transport from the old owner’s place). And I’ve played her most every day for two years. So no complaints.

But here’s the catch. Being so old, it uses the old single escape Viennese action. As people have commented here before, that makes it suitable for playing Chopin or even Beethoven. But I am essentially a jazz player with a love for classical piano. My teacher thinks that, for my technique, I should really be using a modern double escape action.

I’m not in a financial position yet to chase the piano of my dreams. And I really want my next acoustic instrument to be ‘the one’. So, my questions are:

1) Has anyone had experience with rebuilding a Viennese action piano (fixing the sound board, replacing the strings, tightening the action)? Would it be worth it?

2) Would I benefit my technique by buying a modern digital piano like a Yamaha P250? Or is that still a long way from having the action of a modern grand? I’d still keep the acoustic for its feel and tone, but practice mainly on the digital.

I know there are lots of threads on digital vs. acoustic, but I haven’t seen anyone ask if a modern digital is better than a Viennese action grand.

Thanks,
Goose

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

I am the proud owner of a small Bosendorfer grand.
...

I’m not in a financial position yet to chase the piano of my dreams. And I really want my next acoustic instrument to be ‘the one’. So, my questions are:

1) Has anyone had experience with rebuilding a Viennese action piano (fixing the sound board, replacing the strings, tightening the action)? Would it be worth it?

...

Thanks,
Goose

It depends where in the world you are as to could help you best.

[goose]

Good point, Brian. I live in Prague, Czech Republic, which means that good craftsmanship comes relatively cheap compared with Western Europe or the US. It also means that high-end digital pianos are relatively more expensive and harder to get hold of.

[calin]

Hello!

The way I see it, you have 2 options if you want to keep this piano: either get a piano technician to restore your piano and regulate the Viennese action. It should play quite well if it is in good condition and repaired. You migth need to change the leather on the hammers.
Or, have a modern action retrofitted to your piano. It can be done, but it would coost more than restoring the old one. From what I've heard, it's done quite often in your country.

Calin

[goose]

Thanks, Calin. I plan to see a technician in the next week or two. I will definitely ask about installing a modern action. I was under the impression that they are not interchangeable, but I'm keen to find out for sure.

I'm also keen to know what people think about a good digital stage piano action vs. my Viennese action acoustic. I love my Bosendorfer, but want to improve my technique on the kind of action I'd encounter outside my home.

[calin]

The he two actions are not interchangeable, but a modern action can be, usually, retrofitted in pianos which had a Viennese action. If there is the necessary space etc.
But I would expect this to be a job that requires a very knowledgeable piano technician, because many things can go wrong when you put a new action in an old piano, if you don't know how things are supposed to work well.
So you might be better off (that is, cheaper and less risky) if you just restore the Viennese action.

Calin

[goose]

I guess, with Calin's help, I've decided to get a local expert technician to look into rebuilding the piano as it stands (and keep the action Viennese). And I'll consider getting a good digital piano which is closer to the feel of a modern grand.

I'm assuming that few people on this forum have played a Viennese action. But I'll go ahead and try the question one last time.

My teacher feels that the lighter Viennese action is disadvantageous for technique development in the long run. But -- given that I'm unwilling to upgrade to a double-escape action grand for a few years -- which is better for practicing on: the genuine acoustic grand (albeit with light Viennese action)? OR a modern digital like a Yamaha P250?

Thanks,
Goose

[calin]

I doubt a digital piano will be very close to the feel of a real piano. Those I treid were not.
But a Viennese action is sensitive to the touch and plays nicely. The only drawback is the slower repetition, which is unlikely to really bother.
In the end, it depends on what you need. If you want to become a concert pianist, then practicing on a real piano with a real modern action (such as you would encounter on stages everywhere) would be the best idea, since you would need less adjustment.
On the other hand, if you play the Viennese and from time to time pianos with modern action, you'll get used to the differences and won't have many problems.
And, by the way, a late Vienese action has quite a stiff touch, it's not particulary light.

Calin

[goose]

Sound advice, Calin. And much appreciated. You're right that it doesn't seem too much of an adjustment when I play on a different piano from time to time.

It is a little frustrating not to be able to repeat notes fast and consistently. But, considering the fact that I love the piano's sound and feel (it has ivory keys, too, of course), that's a small disadvantage I can easily live with.

[chickering9]

I doubt a digital piano will be very close to the feel of a real piano. Those I treid were not.

None of them I have tried are even close to simulating the touch of a real piano regardless of what their advertising may say.  I have both a digital and an accoustic concert grand.  Friends comment that the digital touch is much better than others they've tried, but I still find it so far from ideal as to not be a good practice instrument to prepare one for the "real" thing.

The discussion about retrofitting a Boesendorfer with a Viennese action with a modern action is interesting.  Perhaps that would explain why I've seen many techs comment that Boesendorfer persisted with the Viennese action until about 1900, but also the fact that I keep seeing rebuilt Boesies with the modern action, but dating from 1870 to 1880?  Or was Boesendorfer building both action types for some number of years?

[jazzertim]

I'm not familiar with the yamaha keyboard, but nearly all digitals have an adjustment for the touch or feel. The resistance to finger pressure is what gets adjusted. Digitals are getting closer and closer to the feel of an acoustic, but even with weighted keys and hammer action, they are still not the same. Stay withe acoustic unless you just can't stand it anymore. Good luck over there in Praha.

[iumonito]

By absolutely no means go digital.  Digital pianos are simply not pianos.  I owned one for 6 years only because I could not afford otherwise.  Hopefully I will never go back.

I think the real question for you is whether to sell the Bosie and buy a Petroff or an August Foerster, which should be relatively unexpensive there.  The Bosie being such a prestigious name is relatively easy to sell, even the really old ones like yours.  Without having seen the piano I would be surprised if you cannot find someone to give you $5,000 for it, depending on size.  Obviously it needs a new sound board, restringing and likely an upgrade to a modern Bosie action and hammers.

The other option, which seems to be where you are leaning, is to repair the Bosie and keep it.  Playing in such a piano does not impair your technique.  Sure you cannot play Prokofiev satisfactorily in it, but that's true of Bosies made this year. 

I would tend to think that in Prague a Petroff would be cheaper than the Chinese and Indonesian pianos, but if that is not the case, you can buy a very decent instrument for very little money.  Try Dongbei and Rittmuller if they have them around.

[goose]

Thank you all for your comments and advice.

I do love the sound and feel of the Bosie and am happily practising three hours a day on her. I don't really want to change until I can afford the 'dream piano' (an expense I can't justify before finding a flat of my own, rather than renting).

But I am still considering a digital for late-night practice, recording myself, and the different modern-action feel (even though it's still not the real thing, a good Yamaha P-series would be closer than the Viennese). For those of you worried about my piano soul, I was never contemplating switching to ONLY digital. 

Iumonito, you are right that Petrofs and AFs are cheaper here. And that is likely what I'll aim for in the long run.

Although this may make some folk sick to hear, my Bosie actually cost me only a little over $200 (which is admittedly at the low end) but 100+ yr old Bosies with Viennese actions don't go for more than about $500 even in 'perfect condition'. I mention it not to make anyone envious but only to suggest that some people may find making a trip to central Europe, buying a piano and shipping it home, cheaper than buying in their home country.

Anyway, when I get her tuned next (soon!) I will ask the technician about reconditioning her. And let you know if he has anything interesting to add that hasn't already been said above.

Thanks again for your help, everyone.

Goose

[DarkWind]

 

You pay $200 and get an old Bosendorfer Grand. I pay $500 and get the crappiest upright in the world. (Thank God I'm out of that place now!)