Another learning order thread

[chopinisque]

Are all the Chopin pieces in the same grade similar in difficulty enough that they can be considered equally difficult so that their learning order doesn't matter or is there some significant difference (especially the higher grades)?  If there is, could someone who's learnt all those of a particular genre (e.g. all preludes) please arrange them in order of relative difficulty (so that learning the next one takes the minimum of time due to the small difference in difficulty)?

FYI, the grades compiled from all Bernhard lists is:

Grades 4 – 5

1.      Prelude in E minor, op. 28 no. 4
2.      Prelude in A major, op. 28 no. 7
3.      Prelude in C minor, op. 28 no. 20
4.      Mazurka in C major, op. 7 no. 5
5.      Mazurka in F major, op. posth. 68 no. 3
6.      Mazurka in F minor, op. posth. 68 no. 4
7.      Waltz no. 17 in A minor
8.      Waltz no. 18 in Eb major
9.      Cantabile in Bb major
10.      Feuille d’album

Grade 6

11.      Prelude in B minor, op. 28 no.6
12.      Prelude in E major, op. 28 no. 9
13.      Mazurka in Bb major, op. 7 no. 1
14.      Mazurka in A minor, op. 7 no. 2
15.      Mazurka in E minor, op. 17 no. 2
16.      Mazurka in G minor, op. 24 no. 1
17.      Mazurka in C major, op. 24 no. 2
18.      Mazurka in Ab major, op. 24 no. 3
19.      Mazurka in C minor, op. 30 no. 1
20.      Mazurka in B minor, op. 30 no. 2
21.      Mazurka in G# minor, op. 33 no. 1
22.      Mazurka in C major, op. 33 no. 3
23.      Mazurka in F minor, op. 63 no. 2
24.      Mazurka in G minor, op. posth. 67 no. 2
25.      Mazurka in C major, op. posth. 67 no. 3
26.      Mazurka in A minor, op. posth. 67 no. 4
27.      Mazurka in A minor, op. posth. 68 no. 2
28.      Mazurka in G major no. 50
29.      Mazurka in Bb major no. 51
30.      Polonaise in G minor no. 11
31.      Polonaise in Bb major no. 12
32.      Nocturne in C minor, no. 21
33.      Contradanse
34.      Largo in Eb major

Waltzes
No. 3 (Am, Op. 34 no. 2)
No. 10 (Bm, Op. Posth. 69 no. 2)
No. 12 (Fm, Op. Posth. 70 no. 2)
No. 14 (Ab)
No. 15 (E)

Grade 7:

Mazurka no. 2 in C#m (op. 6 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 3 in E (op. 6 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 4 in Ebm (op. 6 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 7 in Fm (op. 7 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 8 in Ab (op. 7 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 12 in Ab (op. 17 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 13 in Am (op. 17 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 26 in Em (op. 41 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 28 in Ab (op. 41 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 31 in Ab (op. 50 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 41 in C#m (op. 63 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 52 in Am
Mazurka no. 55 in Bb
Mazurka no. 57 in Ab

Waltz No. 6 (Db, Op. 64 no. 1)
Waltz No. 7 (C#m, Op. 64 no. 2)
Waltz No. 8 (Ab, Op. 64 no. 3)
Waltz No. 9 (Ab, Op. Posth. 69 no. 1)
Waltz No. 13 (Db, Op. Posth. 70 no. 3)

Prelude op. 28 No. 2
Prelude op. 28 No. 13
Prelude op. 28 No. 14
Prelude op. 28 No. 15
Prelude op. 28 No. 21

Nocturne no. 2 in Eb (Op. 9 no. 2)
Nocturne no. 6 in Gm (Op. 15 no. 3)
Nocturne  no. 11 in Gm (Op. 37 no. 1)
Nocturne no. 15 in Fm (Op. 55 no. 1)
Nocturne no. 19 in Em (Op. posth, 72 no. 1)
Nocturne no. 20 in C#m

Polonaise no. 13 in Ab

 Nouvelles Etudes no. 2 in Ab

Sonata no. 1 in Cm (op. 4) – 3rd mov. Larghetto.
Soanta no. 2 in Bbm (Op. 35) – 3rd mov. Marche Funebre
Sonata no. 3 in Bm (Op. 58) – 3rd mov. Largo
Variations in E on Bellini’s I Puritani.

Funeral march in Cm (Op. posth. no. 2)

Ecossaise no. 2 in Gm Op. posth 72 no. 3

Fugue in Am

Grade 8

Mazurka no. 1 in F#m (op. 6 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 10 in Bb (op. 17 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 17 in Bbm (op. 24 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 20 in Db (op. 30 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 25 in Bm (op. 33 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 30 in G (op. 50 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 34 in C (op. 56 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 36 in Am (op. 59 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 37 in Ab (op. 59 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 38 in F#m (op. 59 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 39 in B (op. 63 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 42 in G (op.posth. 67 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 46 in C (op. posth. 68 no. 1)
Mazurka no. 53 in Am
Mazurka no. 54 in D
Mazurka no. 56 in C

Waltz No. 1 (Eb, op. 18 )
Waltz No. 4 (F, Op. 34 no. 3)
Waltz No. 16 (Em)
Waltz No. 19 (Eb)

Prelude op. 28 No. 1
Prelude op. 28 No. 3
Prelude op. 28 No. 17

Nocturne no. 1 in Bbm (Op. 9 no. 1)
Nocturne no. 5 in F# (Op. 15 no. 2)
Nocturne no. 8 in Db (Op. 27 no.2)
Nocturne no. 9 in B (Op. 32 no. 1
Nocturne no. 10 in Ab (Op. 32 no. 2)
Nocturne no. 14 in F# (Op. 48 no. 2)

Nouvelle Etude no. 1 in Fm

Etude Op. 10 no. 6
Etude Op. 25 no. 2

Polonaise no. 1 in C#m Op. 26 no. 1
Polonaise no. 4 in Cm Op. 40 no. 2
Polonaise no. 10 in Fm Op. Posth 71 no. 3

Sonata in Cm (Op. 4) 2nd mov. – Menuetto

Andante Spianatto (prelude to Grande Polonaise Brillante op. 22)

Ecossaise no. 1 in D (Op. posth, 72 no. 3)
Ecossaise no. 3 in Db (Op. posth, 72 no. 3)

Just above grade 8

Mazurka no. 21 in C#m (op. 30 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 23 in D (op. 33 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 27 in B (op. 41 no. 2)
Mazurka no. 29 in C#m (op. 41 no. 4)
Mazurka no. 32 in C#m (op. 50 no. 3)
Mazurka no. 33 in B (op. 56 no.1)
Mazurka no. 35 in Cm (op. 56 no. 3)

Waltz No. 2 (Ab, Op. 34 no. 1)
Waltz No. 5 (Ab, Op. 42)
Waltz No. 11 (Gb Op. Posth. 70 no. 1)

Prelude op. 28 No. 8
Prelude op. 28 No. 10
Prelude op. 28 No. 11
Prelude op. 28 No. 22
Prelude op. 28 No. 23

Nocturne No. 4 in F (Op. 15 no. 1)
Nocturne No. 7 in C#m (Op. 27 no. 1)
Nocturne No. 12 in G (Op. 37 no. 2)
Nocturne No. 13 in Cm (Op. 48 no. 1)
Nocturne No. 16 in Eb (Op. 55 no. 2)
Nocturne No. 17 in B (Op. 62 no. 1)
Nocturne No. 18 in E (Op. 62 no. 2)

Etude Op. 10 no.3
Etude Op. 10 no. 9
Etude Op. 10 no. 12

Etude Op. 25 no. 1
Etude Op. 25 no. 7
Etude Op. 25 no. 9

Nouvelle etude no. 3 in Db
Polonaise no. 2 in Ebm Op. 26 no.2
Polonaise no. 3 in A Op. 40 no. 1
Polonaise no. 8 in Dm Op. Posth. No. 1
Polonaise no. 9 in Bb Op. Posth. No. 2
Polonaise no. 15 in Bbm

Impromptu no. 1 in Ab (Op. 29)
Fantaise Impromptu op. posth. 66

Variations on a German National air
Souvenir de Paganini.

[bernhard]

At the end of the day, each piece is unique and presents unique challenges to play well. Difficulty grading should always be taken with a (large) pinch of salt.

Having said that, one must also use common sense.

Prelude op. 28 no. 4 and the Waltz in A minor no. 17 are around grade 4, but they could not be more different in rhythm, phrasing, technique and so on. So clearly earning this grade 4 prelude is unlikely to prepare you to play a grade 5 or 6 waltz, while learning the waltz in A minor may well do.

Waltzes tend to be much more uniform than preludes, so learning the waltzes in the order of difficulty of the list may be a better idea than learning the preludes in order of difficulty.

The general idea is to learn pieces that have similar figurations that are either easier (because not so fast, or not so stretched over the keyboard, or not so demanding of unusual positions – like black keys in awkward places, more repetitive) even if they are by other composers, or that are set in easier musical contexts (the piece as a whole). A grade classification will tell you very little about that, I am afraid.

Where are you going to find such pieces? Well, market forces in the 19th century were not that different from today. Chopin was a successful composer, and his pieces were difficult for the amateur to play, so a large number of obscure composers found a way into the sheet music market of the time by composing pieces of similar character to Chopin’s, but much more manageable for the amateur pianist (the greatest market for sheet music). Some of these pieces are actually superior music in every way, and it is unfortunate that the composer is neglected today. There is a real mine there, and one just have to dig for gold. In the case of Chopin, the first name that comes to mind is Stephen Heller. You can always find a Heller piece (or study, although even his studies are really pieces – this is not Czerny!) that will prepare for a Chopin piece. Other possibilities - research into which will always prove fruitful -  are:

1.   Mendelssohn (specially the songs without words)
2.   Adolf Jensen (a wonderful composer unjustly neglected)
3.   Anton Arensky
4.   Amy Beach
5.   Alexandre Boely (another wonderful, neglected composer)
6.   John Field (Field’s nocturnes are usually easier than Chopin's and besides being an excellent preparation they are wonderful pieces in their own right).
7.   Robert Fuchs (his children pieces prepare not only for Chopin as for Schumann as well)
8.   Anatoly Lyadov (he has some really difficult stuff, but his easier pieces are very “chopinesque”)
9.   Theodor Oesten.
10.   Heinrich Hoffmann.

Get googling!

Also keep in mind that Chopin’s favourite composers were Scarlatti, JS Bach and Mozart, so study of these three is essential.

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chopinisque]

I am learning Bach, Mozart and Scarlatti... those always come out as exam pieces for the ABRSM.

What I actually meant was learning them in progressive order by genre.  So that I go from say... one waltz to the other.  Or one nocturne to the other. 

Learning the songs of other composers in preparation is a good suggestion.  But there is a missed fact - that it is not economical.  For example... if I wanted to learn waltz no.1, it would be more economical to buy the book for his complete waltzes and play them in such an order that minimum effort is needed to go from one to the next until I'm there instead of finding and buying the books of Amy, Felix, Anton and Stephen to get one song out of each (the song that prepares for that particular waltz).  Also, here, we have a smaller number of pianist who actually venture out to play less common songs so most of the books are much harder to find.  The music shops mostly cater to Czerny, Hanon, Mozart, Bach and Beethoven lovers with a few other odd books.  I hope you get my meaning...

My goal is really the 1st ballade.  But I love all Chopin pieces.  So, I thought it best to play say... the waltzes and preludes simultaneously and then adding in etudes later on.  Like climbing many ladders at the same time to get to the top.

But it seems that you disagree... so what then do you think is the best way to get to the Ballade?  And when I mean getting there, I don't mean so that I can reach it just to butcher it.

Darn... I rambled again...