You ARE ready for the Fantasy Impromptu! Mecarath

[Derek]

I just wanted to start this new post so as to not fade into insignificance in the other thread.

Anyone can learn anything. If you LOVE the fantasy impromptu, which I'm sure you do, then you are ready.  The amount of time it takes you to learn it DOES NOT MATTER.  You love the piece, you will work at it as long as it takes!

What IS this "readiness" nonsense anyway?   I DO think that if you get a teacher, then the things you can learn from him will help you play it BETTER,  but go ahead and learn it!   The idea that doing a challenging piece early in your experience will "ruin" your technique is a load of hot air! 

My old piano teacher laughed at me when I said I wanted to learn fantasy impromptu!  Then I quit her,  and I taught it to myself.  Now I take lessons from a university professor, and though I'm probably not his ABSOLUTE BESt student, he was impressed with how well I play it for so little experience!

Why can I do it? I LOVE THE PIECE.  if you love it,  YOURE READY,   

ignore anyone who says anything the contrary!

[mikeyg]

Nobody says "you can't do it" but "you shouldn't do it".  Of course, anyone can remember after a couple of years where to throw their fingers, but it would be much more beneficial to pregress into the piece.

[pseudopianist]

The fun thing is that I thought just like that. Fantasy was the first piece I realllly wanted to play so I tried playing it after just a year at the piano and I gave it a few weeks but I noticed I didn't get anywhere and everything went to slow, I was just wasting time.

I waited untill I had play for two years before I tried tackling it and I won't say it was easy but I did it. By this time I had devoloped A LOT better technique and a better tone so it sounds pretty good now (IMO).

In other words... Try it, if doesn't work, put it aside and go for a new piece. If you want it to be at concertlevel WAIT untill you gotten to know the piano waaaaay better.

[The_forgetten]

come to think about that, this piece (ie fantaisie impromptu) somehow has the magical quality that drives people to learn and play it. i stopped playing piano for a while after i failed my grade 8 ABRSM practical, but this piece makes me practising again. as i have said in another thread, i have been trying on FI for 6 months already, and although sometimes i feel quite frustrated in playing it (coz of my bad skills), there is something that keeps me going. dunno why.

[hodi]

2 days ago i met a pianist (girl) and i heard her playing the fantasie impromptu, it was just amazing how beautifully she played it, and she is playing the piano for only 5 years, she started to work on the FI on her 3rd year.. she has been working on this piece for 2 years to super-perfect it.. and she plays it SO GOOD!
her teacher told her that she can't play this piece because it may be too difficult for her, but she really loved this piece and learned it.

[desahcrup]

Go Derek!

I know it can be frustrating sometimes when teachers tell (or in this case, laughing at you) not to play something beyond your level. Just ignore them, your life is not under their power.

When I started practicing on the FI (in middle school), I stuggled like everyone else. In the first couple of weeks, I never managed to play the rapid RH passages correctly. But with slow practice, I finally kept on going until I was able to perform it publicly. It'd probably take more time for you to learn the piece, but I'm confident that you'd be able to do it because you seem very determined.

Btw, I used to love this piece, but I'm tired of it. I guess I loved it toooo much...

[Derek]

Haha, I was writing in RESPONSE to someone else's post, who was asking if they were ready for Fantasy IMpromptu. My purpose, for whatever it is worth, was to encourage that person (Mecarath).

I have learned Fantasy Impromptu, and have played it pretty well. I still play it almost daily and never tire of it. I'm a very simple musical creature....its almost like listening to, playing and creating music, for me, is having an erogenous zone stimulated. 

[kilini]

Y'know, technically, I'm not. Your encouragement, however well-meant, could be pushing piano students to injuries and bad habits. Your piano teacher was probably an idiot for laughing at you, but she might have a point.

P.S: And learning the FI by yourself is, IMO, dangerous and silly.

[wintervind]

aww! quit being so dramatic
Sometimes learning pieces that are above your technical level will push you to the next level- IMO
Its always worked for me!

[pseudopianist]

aww! quit being so dramatic
Sometimes learning pieces that are above your technical level will push you to the next level- IMO
Its always worked for me!

Yes but not a piece that is far beyond your technical level. The leep must not be too high because then you will waste too much time on it and you might get very dissapointed when you noticed you can't play it or that it doesn't sound as good as you thought it would.

[Derek]

Here's why I think what some of you say is wrong:

Your implication is that if a student learns a piece with not enough or just barely enough experience to tackle it, that once the piece is learned, the student CANNOT learn anything more about playing that piece.

This seems to me just plain false. When I began teaching myself the Fantasy Impromptu, by some of your standards, I was undoubtedly "not ready" for it. In a certain sense this is true: It took me many months to play it competantly. Then, when I worked on it with Dr. Smith, it improved more. I continue to play it to this day and am continually improving.

This idea that learning a piece means you'll never learn anything more about playing that piece is rubbish.

If I took a false implication, I apologize.

[ted]

Posters on piano forums frequently use the word "dangerous" in relation to various aspects of playing the piano. Dangerous ? Is the piano likely to explode if a certain combination of keys is pressed ? I have difficulty with the idea that anything anybody plays on the piano can be even remotely dangerous. I once noticed that a leg of my piano stool was becoming loose and was too lazy to do anything about it. One day it broke off and I hit the floor, which consequence was my own fault for not fixing it sooner. This is possibly the only time in my life I have experienced danger, even then amounting to no more than a few bruises, from playing the piano.

[thierry13]

Here's why I think what some of you say is wrong:

Your implication is that if a student learns a piece with not enough or just barely enough experience to tackle it, that once the piece is learned, the student CANNOT learn anything more about playing that piece.

This seems to me just plain false. When I began teaching myself the Fantasy Impromptu, by some of your standards, I was undoubtedly "not ready" for it. In a certain sense this is true: It took me many months to play it competantly. Then, when I worked on it with Dr. Smith, it improved more. I continue to play it to this day and am continually improving.

This idea that learning a piece means you'll never learn anything more about playing that piece is rubbish.

If I took a false implication, I apologize.

You can allways improve, but it is dangerous to develop bad habbits, really bad habbits in some cases. Some are too big to be corrected afterward. You CAN correct them, but it will be long. BUT, if you get the technique before, or you learn it with a good teacher who watch you, you will not, and then learn it really faster. I wanted to learn it because I loved it. I know some parts of it, but not the whole thing. And I'm happy not to have learned it, since only now that I have the proper technique to do it well, that I realise how BAD habits I would have taken. I will propably learn it sometime soon, but it's definitly not my priority. But I like it 

[xvimbi]

Posters on piano forums frequently use the word "dangerous" in relation to various aspects of playing the piano. Dangerous ? Is the piano likely to explode if a certain combination of keys is pressed ? I have difficulty with the idea that anything anybody plays on the piano can be even remotely dangerous. I once noticed that a leg of my piano stool was becoming loose and was too lazy to do anything about it. One day it broke off and I hit the floor, which consequence was my own fault for not fixing it sooner. This is possibly the only time in my life I have experienced danger, even then amounting to no more than a few bruises, from playing the piano.

LOL

I use the term "dangerous" as in "dangerous for your health".

[SteinwayTony]

Posters on piano forums frequently use the word "dangerous" in relation to various aspects of playing the piano. Dangerous ? Is the piano likely to explode if a certain combination of keys is pressed ? I have difficulty with the idea that anything anybody plays on the piano can be even remotely dangerous. I once noticed that a leg of my piano stool was becoming loose and was too lazy to do anything about it. One day it broke off and I hit the floor, which consequence was my own fault for not fixing it sooner. This is possibly the only time in my life I have experienced danger, even then amounting to no more than a few bruises, from playing the piano.

I think the piano can be very dangerous.

If you feel like proving me wrong, go play some Dohnanyi exercises as fast and as loud as possible for six hours.  You wouldn't even be able to type out your apology to me.

[Derek]

For that matter, pencils can be dangerous.

[ted]

That's a good point Derek. Now that you mention it I've had many close calls and nasty experiences with pencils. A pencil was the weapon of choice of Rowan Atkinson in "Blackadder", if I remember correctly.

[Triton LE 76]

I've played it and i have got a tip for you.
When you are going to learn it, make it really slow. because when i learned it, i went almost straight into high speed, and then i discovered that i could have played it a lot better if i had taken it slow from the very beginning. it took a long time before i fixed my problems...

[bravuraoctaves]

Just play it already. If you're ready, you're ready, if you're not wait a few months.

[wintervind]

I suggest you take that pencil and stab it in the eye of those here who think you can't play it
Come on! It is no more dangerous than learning a piece that you hate! Both have its disadvantages but if I were to chose I would play a harder piece that I enjoy ( call me crasy )
It isn't exactly an unknown piece, and I have seen 12 year olds perform it successfully, not like Horowitz but who cares?
Those who are being discouraging are probably the ones who have already learned it and think they have accomplished some huge feat.
Next La Campenella and then Rach 3!(puke, gag,gag,puke)

[mikeyg]

I will reiterate:

NO ONE HERE SAYS YOU CAN'T DO IT, JUST THAT IT MAY BE IN YOU BEST INTERESTS TO WAIT A WHILE.

Read this slowly.  Absorb it.  Comprehend it.

[Bacfokievrahms]

Umm yeah there are dangers but it's not exactly the kind that someone who isn't seriously playing would encounter.

If you're just playing it to learn the fingering and to be able to play at a mediocre level, so being that you're not trying to perfect the piece you're probably not going to play it for several hours a day. In that case the danger for injury is very minimal.

If you actually have aspirations of perfecting a piece and you plan on practicing it until you get every bit of voicing and phrasing and have the technical aspect memorized to the point where you feel at ease playing at tempo and musically, well that's not going to happen. Both because improper technique inhibits it and with a hard enough piece you're going to injure yourself first. I almost learned that the hard way with Rachmaninoff's prelude in g minor *wrist slitting emoticon*.

[bravuraoctaves]

NO ONE HERE SAYS YOU CAN'T DO IT, JUST THAT IT MAY BE IN YOU BEST INTERESTS TO WAIT A WHILE.

I concur.

THe difficulty is not technical, it is musical.

[SteinwayTony]

I will reiterate:

NO ONE HERE SAYS YOU CAN'T DO IT, JUST THAT IT MAY BE IN YOU BEST INTERESTS TO WAIT A WHILE.

Read this slowly.  Absorb it.  Comprehend it.

Actually, I sort of skip over anything written in all caps.

 

[Steve T]

I think the piano can be very dangerous.

If you feel like proving me wrong, go play some Dohnanyi exercises as fast and as loud as possible for six hours.  You wouldn't even be able to type out your apology to me.

That would not be dangerous, it would be stupid, like this comment. I don't think anyone was suggesting such silly extremes. The very idea that playing piano is "very dangerous" ... LOL, if that's your definition of dangerous you need to get out more... LOL 

[Green_Tea]

I'm 13 years old,  been playing for almost 5 years, and my latest mastery was the 3rd movement of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata.  Right now, I'm currently working on the FI.  I don't believe that a person can just play a piece if she/he loves it. There is definately some amount of technical skill and musical sense nessesary to play this Impromptu.  I don't mean to say that you have to play 5 years to play the Fantasie Impromptu, but I definately don't recommend a beginner who just finished the Bach Minuet in GM to start on this piece. It'll end up in:

1.) An extremely poorly played piece with little-no musical sense and extremely shaky technical work.
2.) An extremely frustrated person who will consider quitting the piano.

I suggest maybe, a couple years of experience at least? Generally, people should really listen to their piano teachers. It's good to be spirited and want to do something passionately, but don't quit your piano teacher just because he/she didn't think you should play a piece. Most of the time they're right and know more than you do. If your piano teacher advises against it, then you should listen.

[thierry13]

I'm 13 years old, been playing for almost 5 years, and my latest mastery was the 3rd movement of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata. Right now, I'm currently working on the FI. I don't believe that a person can just play a piece if she/he loves it. There is definately some amount of technical skill and musical sense nessesary to play this Impromptu. I don't mean to say that you have to play 5 years to play the Fantasie Impromptu, but I definately don't recommend a beginner who just finished the Bach Minuet in GM to start on this piece. It'll end up in:

1.) An extremely poorly played piece with little-no musical sense and extremely shaky technical work.
2.) An extremely frustrated person who will consider quitting the piano.

I suggest maybe, a couple years of experience at least? Generally, people should really listen to their piano teachers. It's good to be spirited and want to do something passionately, but don't quit your piano teacher just because he/she didn't think you should play a piece. Most of the time they're right and know more than you do. If your piano teacher advises against it, then you should listen.

Well said.

[SteinwayTony]

That would not be dangerous, it would be stupid, like this comment. I don't think anyone was suggesting such silly extremes. The very idea that playing piano is "very dangerous" ... LOL, if that's your definition of dangerous you need to get out more... LOL 

Steve, where is your head?

Overpracticing anything (but especially Dohnanyi exercises, and I'm assuming you've never heard of them) can lead to carpal tunnel and tendoniticis.  And last I checked, you need your wrists and arms to play the piano.  So if you're risking an injury that will literally prevent you from playing, then yes, Steve, that's pretty dangerous in my book.  I understand you have a cute little vendetta against me for my "negative attitude," but grow up and face the facts for a second.  Please.

From "Developing a Healthy Piano Technic":

What is "Piano Technic"?
THE STUDY OF MOTION
Piano technic is the STUDY OF MOTION - - - of trying to find the best ways to move to develop coordinate playing - - - NOT the study of how to develop muscles.  My students' most common choice to the pre-quiz is usually "How to Develop Muscles" because everything else in their life boils down to building strength and endurance --- whether it's track, baseball, aerobics class, weightlifting, or even mental endurance.  But at the piano, if you focus on finding the right ways to move, this in turn LEADS to precision and an effortless sort of strength.

Correct motion overcomes technical problems and produces virtuosity. Correct motion is based on the way that our bodies move naturally.  It's the way that many child prodigies move instinctively, and it's the way that we can move so that we never feel pain or tiredness when we practice and play the piano.   Most pianists tend to concentrate on trying to improve their playing by "developing stronger fingers" through exercises and lots of practice --- to develop that so-called "weak 4th finger" and pinky - - - to develop endurance and so forth.  The problem with this mentality is that as soon as you FOCUS on the MUSCLES and on building strength and endurance, you become TIGHT and tense.   So instead of focusing on building 'strong hand and arm muscles' and endurance through hours of technic exercises and scales, try to FOCUS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT -- on making everything feel FREE and EFFORTLESS as if you're not having to use any muscles at all!

By focusing on finding the right ways to move, this in turn LEADS to precision and an "effortless" sort of strength.   (See "Why I didn't actually need all those bulging muscles in the 1st place!!" below.)

"The Taubman method demystifies mistaken ideas of how to play the piano --- that muscle strength and constant repetition are not the key to success."

"With other teachers I practiced passages repeatedly and didn't understand why my back and arms became tired. Some teachers have a natural technique that works for them, but they have a hard time explaining it to their students. Often they teach the way THEY were taught [not the way they actually play]. At Julliard ... everyone did exercises, but there was no relationship between them and the music ... [the exercises were simply a waste of time]." 

Piano exercises simply to "build muscles" are a waste of time. Some exercises are very dangerous. Piano technic exercises that involve extreme stretching and finger isolation, like Dohnanyi and Plaidy, can be very dangerous. Mrs. Taubman explains.

"If the arm is free and unrestrained, it naturally reacts with corresponding motions to the direction of the motion of the fingers."  In order to have "active fingers and a quiet arm", ala Czerny,  there would have to be a restriction on the arm's motions. Can you imagine the effect on the fingers freedom of action with a rigid arm dragging behind it?  In fixating the arm while trying to move the fingers quickly,  it could be compared to 5 racing horses pulling along a train without an engine. It is clearly expressed in Czerny's exercises recommending "active fingers and quiet arms". Exercises for creating powerful fingers, and stretching the fingers, are responsible for most of the injuries and limitations in musicians." 

[Green_Tea]

Steve, where is your head?

Overpracticing anything (but especially Dohnanyi exercises, and I'm assuming you've never heard of them) can lead to carpal tunnel and tendoniticis.  And last I checked, you need your wrists and arms to play the piano.  So if you're risking an injury that will literally prevent you from playing, then yes, Steve, that's pretty dangerous in my book.  I understand you have a cute little vendetta against me for my "negative attitude," but grow up and face the facts for a second.  Please.

From "Developing a Healthy Piano Technic":

What is "Piano Technic"?
THE STUDY OF MOTION
Piano technic is the STUDY OF MOTION - - - of trying to find the best ways to move to develop coordinate playing - - - NOT the study of how to develop muscles.  My students' most common choice to the pre-quiz is usually "How to Develop Muscles" because everything else in their life boils down to building strength and endurance --- whether it's track, baseball, aerobics class, weightlifting, or even mental endurance.  But at the piano, if you focus on finding the right ways to move, this in turn LEADS to precision and an effortless sort of strength.

Correct motion overcomes technical problems and produces virtuosity. Correct motion is based on the way that our bodies move naturally.  It's the way that many child prodigies move instinctively, and it's the way that we can move so that we never feel pain or tiredness when we practice and play the piano.   Most pianists tend to concentrate on trying to improve their playing by "developing stronger fingers" through exercises and lots of practice --- to develop that so-called "weak 4th finger" and pinky - - - to develop endurance and so forth.  The problem with this mentality is that as soon as you FOCUS on the MUSCLES and on building strength and endurance, you become TIGHT and tense.   So instead of focusing on building 'strong hand and arm muscles' and endurance through hours of technic exercises and scales, try to FOCUS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT -- on making everything feel FREE and EFFORTLESS as if you're not having to use any muscles at all!

By focusing on finding the right ways to move, this in turn LEADS to precision and an "effortless" sort of strength.   (See "Why I didn't actually need all those bulging muscles in the 1st place!!" below.)

"The Taubman method demystifies mistaken ideas of how to play the piano --- that muscle strength and constant repetition are not the key to success."

"With other teachers I practiced passages repeatedly and didn't understand why my back and arms became tired. Some teachers have a natural technique that works for them, but they have a hard time explaining it to their students. Often they teach the way THEY were taught [not the way they actually play]. At Julliard ... everyone did exercises, but there was no relationship between them and the music ... [the exercises were simply a waste of time]." 

Piano exercises simply to "build muscles" are a waste of time. Some exercises are very dangerous. Piano technic exercises that involve extreme stretching and finger isolation, like Dohnanyi and Plaidy, can be very dangerous. Mrs. Taubman explains.

"If the arm is free and unrestrained, it naturally reacts with corresponding motions to the direction of the motion of the fingers."  In order to have "active fingers and a quiet arm", ala Czerny,  there would have to be a restriction on the arm's motions. Can you imagine the effect on the fingers freedom of action with a rigid arm dragging behind it?  In fixating the arm while trying to move the fingers quickly,  it could be compared to 5 racing horses pulling along a train without an engine. It is clearly expressed in Czerny's exercises recommending "active fingers and quiet arms". Exercises for creating powerful fingers, and stretching the fingers, are responsible for most of the injuries and limitations in musicians." 

I may be over-simplifying the matter, but I believe that if you just relax your fingers and arms while you play, there's little to no chance of seriously getting an injury. ^_^ Well... unless you're playing Czerny or Dohnanyi excercises for more than 2 hours nonstop, or something... But... does anyone really do that? 

I think everyone's just picking at a minor point but phrasing it in different ways: Piano practice can be dangerous when pushed to extremes, but isn't everything? 

Back to the main subject, playing the Fantasie Impromptu, say, would not be DANGEROUS to a person's fingers. We all know that the FI is no Dohnanyi exercise. But, it may be dangerous to a person's morale if they can't master it after much work, which is why it would be somewhat dangerous, just not... in a physical sense. >_<

We all know what we're talking about, can we just stop picking faults in everything? -_-

Please don't yell at me. I have weak nerves. lol. 

[paris]

If you LOVE the fantasy impromptu, which I'm sure you do, then you are ready. Why can I do it? I LOVE THE PIECE.  if you love it,  YOURE READY,   

ignore anyone who says anything the contrary!

ok, analogue to this: i adore chopin second concerto, i'm ready for it!  hm...

[thierry13]

I love all rach's concerto. I love all Liszt's concerto. I think I'm hardly ready to play 1 of them all.

[SteinwayTony]

I love all rach's concerto. I love all Liszt's concerto. I think I'm hardly ready to play 1 of them all.

I doubt Steve-O or Derek can respond to that.

If anything I find it commendable that one can admit that (look, Steve-O, positive attitude!).

[Steve T]

Tony,... Let's just say that your idea of 'very dangerous' and mine are poles apart, to say the least. Oh, and I'm so glad to see some early stages of the notion of positive attitude creeping into your postings. Keep it up