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Chopin's fantasie impromptu (Read 39272 times)

Offline emotionsickness

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Chopin's fantasie impromptu
« on: May 04, 2003, 10:17:55 PM »
alright well now that i found out what the name of the piece is, i'm really excited to learn it.  but i'm looking all over the internet for it and i can't find it anywhere, for free anyway.  can anyone here help a fellow pianist out, please?   also, i need tips on teaching it to myself since i stopped taking lessons a few months ago because my family couldn't afford them.  so on this one website it rates it a 8/9 for difficulty... and it sounds pretty difficult... so please, someone who's already learned it, let me know what to do as far as starting it!  thanks!!

Sophie

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #1 on: May 05, 2003, 02:20:33 AM »
yes sophie, chopin's fantasie-impromptu is pretty difficult, it is one of the pieces that Chopin particularly didn't like, but we like it anyway! ;D

you can find free sheetmusic in http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net

or i hope this link works http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/dlpage_new.cfm?composition_id=550

i have not learned that piece, so ask for help in playing that from someone more talented, there are many here!
if you are looking for a midi, you can go to http://www.classicalarchives.com/chopin.html/ look for fantasie impromptu, you can download the midi or listen to the recording!  ;)

happy learning! happy listening! and happy downloading!
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline Black_Key

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #2 on: May 05, 2003, 02:21:04 AM »
Here's a site with the Fantasie-Impromptu along with many, many more pieces ( you can only download two pieces per day though). Sorry, I can advise on playing it, cuz I've never attempted it.

http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/

Good luck in learning it!! ;D

*hehehe, looks like Chopinetta beat me to it* lol

Offline tempest-Sonata

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #3 on: May 05, 2003, 06:26:15 AM »
HEY if u want fantasy impromtu u need to practice 6lets left together with 16th note in the right.

do you think its easy?

ive tried it but i just cant now. it irritates me so i quit it and try another.

timing in this piece is very irritating

:-X
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Offline amee

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #4 on: May 05, 2003, 07:01:37 AM »
Hi Sophie!

I have not learnt the Fantasie Impromptu, but I've heard it is quite difficult.  Chopinetta and Black_Key offer some excellent sites where you can dowload the score; if it doesn't work I can scan and send you the music if you want.
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frederic Chopin

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #5 on: May 05, 2003, 07:18:25 AM »
Amee is very kind to supply sheet music!!!  :D :D :D
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #6 on: May 05, 2003, 05:24:53 PM »
Timing is the hardest thing about this piece, next to the crazy stretches. sheetmusicarchive's version is the one that I have, but I have not found a recording of it. I have heard horowitz and others play it, but they are playing an easier version. I believe the sheetmusicarchive.net version is Klindworth's.  You can only play this version if you can reach 11th's.(for example in the fifth measure you have to hold down the c sharp, while playing the E an octave plus higher) If you find a Klindworth's version, please let me know, I am curious as to what the different sounds will be.

Boliver Allmon III

Offline S.Peterson

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #7 on: May 05, 2003, 10:40:09 PM »
I agree with BolliverAllmon,timing was one of the hardest things for me to get when I learned this piece. I have learned though that once you learn the timing theres no way that you can unlearn it,so keep that in mind when you want to rip your hair out. ;) ;D
Good luck and I hope you can accomplish it.
Sara

Offline emotionsickness

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #8 on: May 06, 2003, 12:27:52 AM »
thanks for all the help, guys!  i printed it all out and MAN is it hard... alright, so let me get this straight... you never really play the left and right hand together?  like i mean hitting notes simultaneously?  i can't tell at all from the music, it all looks like nothing's matched up... sorry if this isn't making much sense, i'm not a pro like the rest of you guys!  so how would i go about teaching myself the timing?  just listen to the piece a lot?  it goes so fast that i can't tell what's going on... so if there is an easier version out there, i'd greatly appreciate someone sending me a link... i really hope i don't already have the easy version, because that would make me look quite pathetic.  thanks for the help in advance!

Sophie

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #9 on: May 06, 2003, 01:36:55 AM »
yeah, nothing matches!!! it's so annoying! that's what makes it really hard to learn, it's like Debussy's fisrt arabesque okay? 8th notes to triplets, doesn't match, but it's played slower so it's easy. that's played really fast!!!

i think it will be good if you go for an easier version first, then move to the original. i've heard the sheetmusicarchive's version 2 times already, LIVE, very near the person playing it. First, a concert pianist next  i victimized my teacher, she's a PHD and she had a little difficulty in it still!!!
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline amee

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #10 on: May 06, 2003, 07:51:07 AM »
Yes, Debussy's first arabesque...what a beautiful piece!  The 8th notes to triplets aren't nearly as hard as the ones in this piece though.  Like Chopinetta said, they are slower, and there are only a couple of passages which have them.  

Enjoy learning the fantasie impromptu, emotionsickness!
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frederic Chopin

Offline tempest-Sonata

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #11 on: May 06, 2003, 02:39:24 PM »
its true amee and 1st arabesque is really simple
not like the monstrous fantasy impromtu.
and bye the way i think i am capable of playing it i didnt just try harder.
after im cleaned with my valse 1 ill try it one  more time and this thime fighting spirit will be aplied by me.
you know determination is the only key. no matter how hard the piece is as long as you are capable of it (like your hands are long) you can play it as long as you never quit. just like the story of my noubo uematsu's The Castle
its intro is really hard to play and i really want to quit it but because of my desire in playing it i did it and ive finished it
the site of noubo uematsu's (Square soft's musical director) the castle is in
ffmusiconline.com
you can go there and check it out
its a final fantasy 8 sound track
just go to piano.
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Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #12 on: May 06, 2003, 02:50:43 PM »
everyone can be capable of playing something even if he/she has small hands, although it's quite a problem. Chopin had small hands you know and even had an underdeveloped fourth finger. But he managed it all the way, stretching it like the jaws of the snake. most pianists that i've met and known have small and fat fingers but they are really good!

DETERMINATION is one factor that helps you succeed too, you are right about that, tempest-Sonata.

but i think INTEREST matters as well!

so good luck in learning fantasie-impromptu, don't quit easily, quiters never win, winners never quit! be determined to play it and give your full interest on it! :)
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #13 on: May 06, 2003, 03:00:40 PM »
hey this The Castle is really cool! i've fixed you all guys the link so you won't have to go a long way for it. so here's the link for an instant download. the composer is actually modern, japanese... but he composes really good music! ;D

http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/FF8-The_Castle.mid

enjoy listening to it!
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #14 on: May 06, 2003, 03:08:47 PM »
i realized the link didn't work when i placed it above this post.

but it works when you type this in the address box of the browser. so just copy this to your address box.

http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/FF8-The_Castle.mid/
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #15 on: May 06, 2003, 03:15:21 PM »
i suggest you don't put a / (slash) after the link... don't click the link i've posted, it doesn't work. just copy the first one i posted to your address box, the box where you type the URL or link of a site on your browser. im having a hard time with this... figuring it out! annoying...
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #16 on: May 06, 2003, 06:37:49 PM »
Ok, I have found a recording of the sheetmusicarchive.net version (I believe). I know that the middle section is that version as well as the roll c octaves in the third measure. I am not sure on holding out part of the sixlets, simply because it is so fast, and my ears can't hear them out. here is the link to it.

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/140/chopinrobin_alciatore_pian.html

I really like this pianist. I enjoyed the way she plays this as well as chopin's revolutionary etude. I will definately be spending some time today listening to more of her.

Boliver Allmon

Offline Chiyo

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #17 on: May 06, 2003, 10:12:20 PM »

Hi. I'm not professional at no means, but I've managed to play Fantasie-Impromptu (not perfect, but it sounds alike..... ::) )

Well, I did have a teacher, but I listened to it A LOT. I listened it so that I could memorize the music by hearing. While I listened to the music, I looked at the music and tried to familiarize.
I practiced the slower section first, because it made me felt good to be able to play at least 'part' of it.
And the intro part, or the past parts, the timing was really hard. So, I've practiced right hand separate, and left hand separate TONS of times. Then, I tried both hands at relatively faster tempo than I'm supposed to, and tried to match 1st beats of each measure. And it kinda worked out. Try it!! Good Luck.
I love Chopin!

Offline emotionsickness

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #18 on: May 06, 2003, 10:28:09 PM »
hey all!  does sheet music exist for "the castle"?  i really like it!  i really appreciate all the feedback and advice i've gotten regarding fantasie impromptu.. i'll probably attack that this weekend.  i talked to someone today who told me that if i find fantasie to be too difficult, i should try chopin's revolutionary etude... is that any easier?  and if that isn't, what's something the rest of you chopin fans can recommend?  thanks!

Sophie

Offline amee

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #19 on: May 07, 2003, 02:06:45 AM »
Chopinetta is completely right ;D
Determination and interest are both very important factors.
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frederic Chopin

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #20 on: May 07, 2003, 03:10:02 AM »
yes, luckily there IS sheetmusic for the castle. i managed to upload it for you whoever would like. it's in .gif form actually. 6 pages.

http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page01.gif
http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page02.gif
http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page03.gif
http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page04.gif
http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page05.gif
http://www.geocities.com/lodchopin/Page06.gif


it doesn't have fingering... but i'm sure you'll manage, just ask tempest-Sonata since he already did it, it's a good piece to study, it's not very familiar.

yes revolutionary etude (op10 no12) is easier--no---less harder than fantasie-impromptu. there's sheetmusic in sheetmusicarchive.net they have sheetmusic for all etudes... ok here's what Huneker wrote about revolutionary etude!

Now the young eagle begins to face the sun, begins to mount on wind-weaving pinions. We have reached the last study of op. 10, the magnificent one in C minor. Four pages suffice for a background upon which the composer has flung with overwhelming fury the darkest, the most demoniac expressions of his nature.
Here is no veiled surmise, no smothered rage, but all weeps along in tornadic passion. Karasowski's story may be true regarding the genesis of this work, but true or not, it is one of the greatest dramatic outbursts in piano literature. Great in outline, pride, force and velocity, it never relaxes its grim grip from the first shrill dissonance to the overwhelming chordal close. This end rings out like the crack of creation. It is elemental. Kullak calls it a "bravura study of the very highest order for the left hand. It was composed in 1831 in Stuttgart, shortly after Chopin had received tidings of the taking of Warsaw by the Russians, September 8, 1831." Karasowski wrote: "Grief, anxiety and despair over the fate of his relatives and his dearly- beloved father filled the measure of his sufferings. Under the influence of this mood he wrote the C minor Etude, called by many
the Revolutionary Etude. Out of the mad and tempestuous storm of passages for the left hand the melody rises aloft, now passionate and anon proudly majestic, until thrills of awe stream over the listener, and the image is evoked of Zeus hurling thunderbolts at
the world."

Niecks thinks it "superbly grand," and furthermore writes: "The composer seems fuming with rage; the left hand rushes impetuously along and the right hand strikes in with passionate ejaculations." Von Bulow said: "This C minor study must be considered a finished work of art in an even higher degree than the study in C sharp minor." All of which is pretty, but not enough to the point.
Von Bulow fingers the first passage for the left hand in a very rational manner; Klindworth differs by beginning with the third instead of the second finger, while Riemann--dear innovator--takes the group: second, first, third, and then, the fifth finger on D, if you please! Kullak is more normal, beginning with the third. Here is Riemann's phrasing and grouping for the first few bars. Notice the half note with peculiar changes of fingering at
the end. It gives surety and variety. Von Bulow makes the changes ring on the second and fifth, instead of third and fifth, fingers. Thus Riemann:
[Musical score excerpt]

In the above the accustomed phrasing is altered, for in all other editions the accent falls upon the first note of each group. In Riemann the accentuation seems perverse, but there is no question as to its pedagogic value. It may be ugly, but it is useful though I should not care to hear it in the concert room. Another striking peculiarity of the Riemann phrasing is his heavy accent
on the top E flat in the principal passage for the left hand. He also fingers what Von Bulow calls the "chromatic meanderings," in
an unusual manner, both on the first page and the last. His idea of the enunciation of the first theme is peculiar.

[Musical score excerpt]

Mikuli places a legato bow over the first three octaves--so does Kullak--Von Bulow only over the last two, which gives a slightly different effect, while Klindworth does the same as Kullak. The heavy dynamic accents employed by Riemann are unmistakable. They signify the vital importance of the phrase at its initial entrance. He does not use it at the repetition, but throughout
both dynamic and agogic accents are unsparingly used, and the study seems to resound with the sullen booming of a park of artillery. The working-out section, with its anticipations of "Tristan and Isolde," is phrased by all the editors as it is never played. Here the technical figure takes precedence over the law of the phrase, and so most virtuosi place the accent on the
fifth finger, regardless of the pattern. This is as it should be.
In Klindworth there is a misprint at the beginning of the
fifteenth bar from the end in the bass. It should read B natural, not B flat. The metronome is the same in all editions, 160 to the quarter, but speed should give way to breadth at all hazards. Von Bulow is the only editor, to my knowledge, who makes an enharmonic key change in this working-out section. It looks neater, sounds the same, but is it Chopin? He also gives a variant for public performance by transforming the last run in unisono into a veritable hurricane by interlocked octaves. The effect is brazen. Chopin needs no such clangorous padding in this etude, which gains by legitimate strokes the most startling contrasts.

The study is full of tremendous pathos; it compasses the sublime, and in its most torrential moments the composer never quite loses his mental equipoise. He, too, can evoke tragic spirits, and at will send them scurrying back to their dim profound. It has but one rival in the Chopin studies--No. 12, op. 25, in the same key.


here's what huneker thinks about fantasie-impromptu:

The Fantaisie-Impromptu in C sharp minor, op. 66, was published by Fontana in 1855, and is one of the few posthumous works of Chopin worthy of consideration. It was composed about 1834. A true Impromptu, but the title of Fantaisie given by Fontana is superfluous. The piece presents difficulties, chiefly rhythmical. Its involuted first phrases suggest the Bellini-an fioriture so
dear to Chopin, but the D flat part is without nobility. Here is the same kind of saccharine melody that makes mawkish the trio in the "Marche Funebre." There seems no danger that this Fantaisie-Impromptu will suffer from neglect, for it is the joy of the piano student, who turns its presto into a slow, blurred mess of badly related rhythms, and its slower movement into a long drawn
sentimental agony; but in the hands of a master the C sharp minor Impromptu is charming, though not of great depth.


sorry it's too long, this post, but hope it helps! :)  :D ;D
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline tempest-Sonata

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #21 on: May 07, 2003, 05:36:14 AM »
Hey chopinetta
your post is too long and i didnt bother to read it.
pls post it agian in summarized and do it one by one.
hahahahahahaha
Amee why do you always agree with chopinetta wherein we have desame opinion.
and i said it first.
hahahahahaha
okok amee
your reply is always cute
hahahaha
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Offline amee

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #22 on: May 07, 2003, 05:52:13 AM »
Hi Tempest-Sonata,

Sorry I did not see your reply to this message.  I was skimming the boards and Chopinetta's post happened to catch my eye.  But yes I do agree with you as well.
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." - Frederic Chopin

Offline ThEmUsIcMaNBJ

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #23 on: May 09, 2003, 03:54:21 AM »
Count it In 4 rather that in 2 how it is written to start out with.  Get each hand seperately down well until you're confident...  Then put them together SLOWLY!  It sounds very WRONG if you do it right!  Play the 16th notes in the right hand as if they were very slow 8th notes or even quarter notes while playing the left hand sixtuplets as slow quarter note triplets...  IF you count it in four then the right hand and left hand do play together on every beat...  But inbetween the beats you're going to think for sure it's wrong.  Because it sounds so gross!  But the way to make sure you're doing it right is once you get to that point play both hands together but only listen to your left hand.  Make sure you're playing even triplets...  Then the next time you play it listen to only your right hand make sure you're playing even 16th notes (or 8th notes or whatever).  Then once your sure it's right speed it up SLOWLY...  Eventually you'll get to a speed and notice that it makes sense...  But until then you'll want to rip your ears off if you're playing it right  ;) Also make sure that all the articulations are acurate at the slow speed because it will be very difficult to add them in once you get it up to speed especially the syncopated accents starting in measure 17...  Also make sure you're articulating the right hand always...  Make sure it's crisp and that the left hand is not too overpowering or it will sound like mush...  I would suggest learning the timing first by learning maybe the first 2 measures when the right hand comes in.  And get the timing good maybe even speed only those measures up to the right speed because then learning the rest of the peice will be a peice of cake!  (maybe not but it will be much easier!).  Anyways just stick with and and you'll get it!  Hope I helped!

Offline emotionsickness

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #24 on: May 10, 2003, 01:23:20 AM »
themusicmanbj--thanks SO much for your help!!!  i still haven't started it yet b/c i'v ebeen so busy but now when i do start i'm sure it'll be easier since you explained all that... and you were the first person to tell me that it's supposed to sound wrong when you play it the right way slowly... that was REALLY good advice, this whole time i just thought i was messing it up!  well, maybe that too, lol.  so anyways, thanks again!

sophie

Offline d1musicman

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #25 on: May 18, 2003, 08:12:12 PM »
Sophie,
  The fantasie is one of my all time favorite pieces. It took me a while to learn and even longer to master (not that I have ...yet). I remember working on it until the frustration got to be too much and then came back to it later. Sometimes later was a month or two. Determanation pays off in the end.
 It was also the first piece I learned after graduating from college. I was able to learn it without a teacher, although having someone else to listen to and give suggestions is always invaluable.
  Everything that  ThEmUsIcMaNBJ said about practicing is good advice. I did just about everything he mentioned. One thing I would add is a metronome. I have one that will subdivide the beats. I had the metronome play triplets while I played the right hand and then switched. It's confusing to do at first, but once you can do it, the music becomes free-er. Then you know if the rhythms are lining up right (even though they sound wrong) I have a recording of myself playing it. Tell me what you think.  I'm no professional, but I'm working on it.

http://users.erols.com/daoneill/Fantasy.mov

Offline emotionsickness

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #26 on: May 18, 2003, 10:22:34 PM »
thanks a million musicman... but your link isn't working for me...

Offline d1musicman

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #27 on: May 19, 2003, 12:21:33 AM »
Sorry about the link. It worked for me. You need quicktime to see it. Windows users may only get audio. The picture's not great anyway.   If I figure something else out I'll repost it. So much for my 15 minutes of fame...

The other thing I forgot to mention was slow practice. No matter how fast the piece is supposed to go, you have to be secure with it slow before you'll get the speed you want with it. Even after I could play the piece fast I still practiced it slow to insure accuracy.  

Offline zoolander

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #28 on: August 04, 2003, 06:38:27 PM »
nethermagic, that link didnt work

Offline d1musicman

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #29 on: August 04, 2003, 07:59:59 PM »
thanks for the critique of the fantasie NetherMagic!! Yes, it is me, and yes, I agree with everything you said. I think I have slowed it down a little since then (that was recorded in 2001).  It's amazing how much a piece can mature after you've played it for a long time. The piano I was playing on was a yamaha which is very bright compared to  the recording you posted, which, by the way, was great. The tone that Yundi had was so soft and round. Of course, that's why they won the competition...


I got the link to work by re-typing the address into my browser after it said there was an error.

Anyway, Sophie, how has the learning been coming...? When are we going to hear your recording of the Fantasie?   ;D

Offline SteveK

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #30 on: August 04, 2003, 08:08:09 PM »
I play Fantasie-Impromptu in an autograph version.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/stephenkoppmusic.htm

In this version, the notes and sound are very different from the other version most people would play (i.e., the Fontana version). I had a review from someone telling me that it was learned "wrong", but I guess he was comparing to his edition.  ???  ::)  :)
"And you probably thought I'd play badly?" - Sergei Rachmaninoff.

NetherMagic

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #31 on: August 04, 2003, 10:55:50 PM »
d1musicman no prob for the critique personally i luv criticizing ppl (i also like ppl criticizing me), i'm just always worried if I'd make a hole too deep in someone's self confidence, you never know if somethin not so pleasant flies outta your mouth when you're judging =]

and SteveK, i must say you're really good I mean like you can play all those pieces I wanna play like Campanella and Polonaise A-flat op53.  Just wondein, how old are you?  and umm how long did it take you to learn?  I'm learning ballade no.1 by chopin and it's taking forever.  And do you have a teacher?  cuz i dun =P  and last question wut age have you actually started focusing on piano?

Offline SteveK

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #32 on: August 05, 2003, 05:45:45 AM »
Thank you, NetherMagic!
I'm 17 years old. I started playing when I was 8. At the age of 12, I started to get even more serious. You can find out more about me by clicking on www under my username. Also the page I mentioned above on the right, there is a section that says quick links and you can click on the main band page for my bio. I am going to put more music into Soundclick.com on a weekly basis.

I think Chopin's first ballade is so beautiful! Although it's taking you long to learn it, it's worth it! :)

Take care everyone,
Stephen
"And you probably thought I'd play badly?" - Sergei Rachmaninoff.

Offline musanim

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #33 on: July 17, 2005, 06:06:07 PM »
There are several simultaneous technical challenges in Chopin's opus 66, and it's impossible to play the piece until none of those challenges is, by itself, challenging.  Itís tempting to jump in and start beating your head against the wall (with occasional retreats in the more tractable middle section), but the result of this is not likely to be good, because youíll pick up a lot of bad habits (mental if not physical) along the way.  Better is to practice the piece decomposed in various ways so that when you begin practicing the whole thing for real, there is only the challenge of putting it all together.

The most obvious challenge is playing three against four.  If youíve played dozens of pieces with this particular polyrhythm, the Fantasy-Impromptu probably wonít be such a hurdle.  If this is your first experience with three against four, work on it separately first.  A good exercise to start with is to do a 3-group finger pattern in the left hand while doing a 4-group one in the right.  For example, put the 4th finger of your left hand and the 5th finger of your right hand on F#s a few octaves apart.  With the left hand, do a triplet rhythm 4-3-2-1-2-3-4-3-2-1-2-3-4... and with the right hand, do a 16th note rhythm 5-4-3-2-1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-3-1-2-3-4-5..., both hands in a B-major scale.  The F#s and the Bs will happen together, and the notes in between will be out of sync.  The contrary motion of your hands will make it fairly easy to keep track of whatís going on, but at first, youíll find that one hand wonít be as even as the other.  The thing to practice at this point is to be able to shift your attention from one hand to the other.  To make this easier, play one hand fortissimo and the other pianissimo (or, at the extreme, so softly that the notes donít sound at all).  Focus on one hand (the louder one, if one is louder) until it is even.  Once a hand is even, play it with different degrees of accent, different articulations, etc.  Once you feel like you really have control of one hand, slowly switch your attention to the other.  If you were playing one hand louder, equalize the dynamics before you switch your attention, and after youíve switched, make the focused-on hand louder.  If you can make one hand or the other smooth but not both, donít worry, just go back and forth, telling each hand ďyouíre doing fine, just keep doing thatĒ when you switch your attention to the other.  Once the polyrhythm by itself is not a problem, start changing the patterns to which it applies.  For example, do a major scale in one hand while doing an arpeggio in the other.  If you improvise, play an accompaniment (e.g. Alberti-bass style) in one rhythm while doing a melody in the other.  If you donít improvise, then take a piece that you already know that has either continuous triplets in the left hand or continuous 16th notes in the right hand, and modify the rhythm other hand so to create a three against four pattern.

Once youíve gotten really comfortable with the polyrhythm (and I mean really comfortable; this will not happen in a day, or even a week, for most people), learn the hands separately in the Fantasy-Impromptu.  If you typically memorize music, memorize the parts, but in any case, learn to play them without looking at your hands; either look at the score, or close your eyes.  If you canít play the piece up to tempo without looking at your hands, donít worry, just play it more slowly.  The important thing is for it to be comfortable and easy and not require a lot of attention.

Next is to play one hand with a simplified version of the other hand.  The first of these is to play the right hand as written, but the left hand in chords, one per quarter note, with the chord containing the notes of the triplet and fingered as you will finger them eventually.  If the notes are too far apart to be played as chords, roll them.  The second of these is to play the left hand as written and play the highest and lowest note in the right hand (this is typically the first and last note in the group, but not always).  From there, invent whatever variants make sense to you.  For example, you can break the left hand into an oom-pah style accompaniment (eighth notes) by taking the lowest note of the chord as the down-beat and the upper two as the up-beat.

Finally, put the piece together.  Because itís not very melody-oriented, itís possible to repeat measures, or pairs of measures, so that you can work on a small segment at a time, and get past the technical difficulty of putting the finger patterns together and focus on the evenness of the rhythms, the shape of the phrases, and the articulation.

A few final notes:

Chopinís version of this (ďFassung nach der EigenschriftĒ in the Henle edition) is somewhat more difficult than the version that Chopinís friend Fontana put together from Chopinís sketches (ďFassung nach FontanaĒ in Henle), and this difficulty makes the polyrhythm harder.

The preparatory work Iíve suggested should not be thought of as exercises, but as compositions in their own right.  Work on them as if you were preparing them for performance; donít save the interpretive work for later.  Being firm on a step before moving on will save work in the long run, and make the final result better.

Abstain from using the pedal until youíre able to play the piece (and the preparatory versions) as a whole without pedal.  Fontanaís version has pedal in it, but Chopinís does not (except in the middle section); itís just marked ďlegato.Ē

Hope this helps!

Offline xvimbi

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #34 on: July 17, 2005, 06:45:23 PM »
Great essay, but did you see when the last post was? I wonder what happened to these guys who wanted to learn this piece. Didn't hear anything about it for the past two years ???

Offline tds

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #35 on: July 17, 2005, 07:10:11 PM »
There are several simultaneous technical challenges in Chopin's opus 66, and it's impossible to play the piece until none of those challenges is, by itself, challenging.  Itís tempting to jump in and start beating your head against the wall (with occasional retreats in the more tractable middle section), but the result of this is not likely to be good, because youíll pick up a lot of bad habits (mental if not physical) along the way.  Better is to practice the piece decomposed in various ways so that when you begin practicing the whole thing for real, there is only the challenge of putting it all together.

The most obvious challenge is playing three against four.  If youíve played dozens of pieces with this particular polyrhythm, the Fantasy-Impromptu probably wonít be such a hurdle.  If this is your first experience with three against four, work on it separately first.  A good exercise to start with is to do a 3-group finger pattern in the left hand while doing a 4-group one in the right.  For example, put the 4th finger of your left hand and the 5th finger of your right hand on F#s a few octaves apart.  With the left hand, do a triplet rhythm 4-3-2-1-2-3-4-3-2-1-2-3-4... and with the right hand, do a 16th note rhythm 5-4-3-2-1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-3-1-2-3-4-5..., both hands in a B-major scale.  The F#s and the Bs will happen together, and the notes in between will be out of sync.  The contrary motion of your hands will make it fairly easy to keep track of whatís going on, but at first, youíll find that one hand wonít be as even as the other.  The thing to practice at this point is to be able to shift your attention from one hand to the other.  To make this easier, play one hand fortissimo and the other pianissimo (or, at the extreme, so softly that the notes donít sound at all).  Focus on one hand (the louder one, if one is louder) until it is even.  Once a hand is even, play it with different degrees of accent, different articulations, etc.  Once you feel like you really have control of one hand, slowly switch your attention to the other.  If you were playing one hand louder, equalize the dynamics before you switch your attention, and after youíve switched, make the focused-on hand louder.  If you can make one hand or the other smooth but not both, donít worry, just go back and forth, telling each hand ďyouíre doing fine, just keep doing thatĒ when you switch your attention to the other.  Once the polyrhythm by itself is not a problem, start changing the patterns to which it applies.  For example, do a major scale in one hand while doing an arpeggio in the other.  If you improvise, play an accompaniment (e.g. Alberti-bass style) in one rhythm while doing a melody in the other.  If you donít improvise, then take a piece that you already know that has either continuous triplets in the left hand or continuous 16th notes in the right hand, and modify the rhythm other hand so to create a three against four pattern.

Once youíve gotten really comfortable with the polyrhythm (and I mean really comfortable; this will not happen in a day, or even a week, for most people), learn the hands separately in the Fantasy-Impromptu.  If you typically memorize music, memorize the parts, but in any case, learn to play them without looking at your hands; either look at the score, or close your eyes.  If you canít play the piece up to tempo without looking at your hands, donít worry, just play it more slowly.  The important thing is for it to be comfortable and easy and not require a lot of attention.

Next is to play one hand with a simplified version of the other hand.  The first of these is to play the right hand as written, but the left hand in chords, one per quarter note, with the chord containing the notes of the triplet and fingered as you will finger them eventually.  If the notes are too far apart to be played as chords, roll them.  The second of these is to play the left hand as written and play the highest and lowest note in the right hand (this is typically the first and last note in the group, but not always).  From there, invent whatever variants make sense to you.  For example, you can break the left hand into an oom-pah style accompaniment (eighth notes) by taking the lowest note of the chord as the down-beat and the upper two as the up-beat.

Finally, put the piece together.  Because itís not very melody-oriented, itís possible to repeat measures, or pairs of measures, so that you can work on a small segment at a time, and get past the technical difficulty of putting the finger patterns together and focus on the evenness of the rhythms, the shape of the phrases, and the articulation.

A few final notes:

Chopinís version of this (ďFassung nach der EigenschriftĒ in the Henle edition) is somewhat more difficult than the version that Chopinís friend Fontana put together from Chopinís sketches (ďFassung nach FontanaĒ in Henle), and this difficulty makes the polyrhythm harder.

The preparatory work Iíve suggested should not be thought of as exercises, but as compositions in their own right.  Work on them as if you were preparing them for performance; donít save the interpretive work for later.  Being firm on a step before moving on will save work in the long run, and make the final result better.

Abstain from using the pedal until youíre able to play the piece (and the preparatory versions) as a whole without pedal.  Fontanaís version has pedal in it, but Chopinís does not (except in the middle section); itís just marked ďlegato.Ē

Hope this helps!

bernhardful in length.
dignity, love and joy.

Offline mixedup

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #36 on: March 31, 2006, 11:18:20 AM »
Hi,

I love Chopin's Fantasy Impromtu and have made it up to bar 12. I'm kind of stuck on how to play bar 13th-24th bar fast enought? Listening to a recording the music it is very fast but I just don't know whether it's physically possible  :(

I kind of feel like rearrange each of the 4 note sets so each of them have the notes going up in pitch one by one instead of the way they go Lowest-Highest-2ndLowest-2ndHighest.

Any suggestions/ideas/tricks here?

Link to the music = http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/imp66.pdf

Thanks

Offline semme

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #37 on: April 05, 2006, 04:10:38 AM »

I love Chopin's Fantasy Impromtu and have made it up to bar 12. I'm kind of stuck on how to play bar 13th-24th bar fast enought?


hey, i dont know if i can really help you, but when i practiced it a few months ago, i really had to stop for 2 weeks with my right hand, because the bar 13-24 had so unusual movments for my hands. 2-3 weeks later after the pause i picked it up again and didnt really think about making it faster. it just kind of flowed out of my hands and it wasnt a problem anymore. maybe this helps too: just practise that motion of the 1-5-2-3 everytime you can. you will get used to it and it gets faster by itself.

hople this helps,
simon
- "Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long, and in the end, it's only with yourself."

Offline mixedup

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #38 on: April 05, 2006, 07:50:42 AM »
hey, i dont know if i can really help you, but when i practiced it a few months ago, i really had to stop for 2 weeks with my right hand, because the bar 13-24 had so unusual movments for my hands. 2-3 weeks later after the pause i picked it up again and didnt really think about making it faster. it just kind of flowed out of my hands and it wasnt a problem anymore. maybe this helps too: just practise that motion of the 1-5-2-3 everytime you can. you will get used to it and it gets faster by itself.

hople this helps,
simon
Thanks - I'll start the practice - go to know it's not impossible

Offline kyle556

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #39 on: April 06, 2006, 03:27:15 AM »
Some notes do hit at the same time, and that is what I worked off from. 

Also, I noticed when you turn the left hand into "block chords" while you play the right hand, it makes it very simple.  I could give you a quick example. 

http://media.putfile.com/Fantasie-Impromtu

Notice how I also emphasize the first note in each "6th" in the left hand?  Say if you were playing the left hand as it is written.  Now play the first note in each 6th the loudest.  This ALWAYS helps me.  You can hear the bassline well like this and it's another thing that helps you put things together. 

Memorization of the first page helps A LOT too.  Just pay attention only to the first page.  Keep saying to yourself "It's only one page, I can do this... I can do this."  After knowing all the notes and even playing the first page without the music, this will help immencely.

See the section I play at 1:10?  This part save for later.   After I found my rythm on page one, learning this section I played 1:10 was easy!!  I just learned the notes up real quick.  Then I got the two hands together to sound even in about an hour.  (except those annoying little jumps, which might need extra practice).

(oh yeah sorry I kept playing, I was getting into it lol)

Hope this helps.  It worked for me, I just started this not to long ago. :)

Offline semme

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #40 on: April 06, 2006, 04:26:29 AM »
hey what version are you playing? is this the harder or easier version?
- "Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long, and in the end, it's only with yourself."

Offline kyle556

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #41 on: April 06, 2006, 07:25:30 PM »
The one chopin wrote!  Actually I'm unaware of the 'harder version'.

Can you explain?  ;D

Kyle

Offline semme

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #42 on: April 07, 2006, 04:32:30 AM »
i dont know myself. but i heard of a different version in the forum. but certainly, you are playing bar 13-26 i think in a different way compared to the version i know. where did you get your version from?
- "Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long, and in the end, it's only with yourself."

Offline kelly_kelly

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #43 on: April 14, 2006, 11:44:17 AM »
I've noticed that everyone's fussing over the polyrhythms- although they are difficult, remember that this piece is an impromptu. The rhythm doesn't have to be completely precise.
It all happens on Discworld, where greed and ignorance influence human behavior... and perfectly ordinary people occasionally act like raving idiots.

A world, in short, totally unlike our own.

Offline mixedup

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #44 on: April 15, 2006, 11:44:15 PM »
I've noticed that everyone's fussing over the polyrhythms- although they are difficult, remember that this piece is an impromptu. The rhythm doesn't have to be completely precise.
Oh..I hadn't considered the potential significance of the title.  Is there a formal definition for an impromptu?  Any info re why Chopin called it "fantasie"?

Offline ilikepie

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #45 on: April 16, 2006, 03:48:57 AM »
Speaking of this piece, I just went to a rehersal today for a coming competition... The last person to play was a 12~13ish girl who played this, and quite well if I may add >.> Sorta makes me want to give up before it's too late xD Another was playing moszowski etude no.6 in f major... she was only 10...
Bah I thought I sucked before, now I know how much... Sorry for going off-topic haha couldn't help myself :-X
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Offline pianokid16

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Re: Chopin's fantasie impromptu
«Reply #46 on: April 17, 2006, 04:34:25 AM »
i was gonna learn it but i decided to learn the ballade in g minor instead and it was the right decision ;)