Tough-cookie student, any suggestions?

[m1469]

I have a 12 year old student whose parents are making her take piano lessons.  She is very smart, and I believe that secretly, somewhere in her she actually enjoys music and the piano.  I think she just resists because of her age and because her parents are forcing her to have lessons. 

During our interview together, she outright told me in front of her mother that she did not want to be here.  I responded a little later saying that I realized she did not want to be here, and that it would not be much fun for either of us if we just go in there and battle it out each day.  I asked that she try to put those thoughts aside and just see what we could get out of the time together since we were going to be seeing more of each other anyway (something like that).

I have been teaching her for the past several months now, and I am feeling a bit at a loss as to what to do with her.  I took her on because at this point, I need the money.  But from day one, most of her answers are "I don't care".  So I knew it would all be a challenge, which is fine.  But I have been thinking that I just have to figure out a way to bring that part of her that I believe enjoys music, to the surface (I personally believe that everybody has that in them). 

I will play for her and give her choices of repertoire, and when I ask if she likes it "I don't care" is the answer.  Although, lately she has started telling me when she doesn't like something and why, which I take as a step of progress.

I asked her to choose something to play for me from the pieces she brought in (trying to get her to be involved) and she sat there with the answer again "I don't care".  This time I wouldn't take it and I told her I wanted her to just pick a piece and start playing to which she gave the answer, again.  A few times back and forth like this until I spelled it out for her "Look, I am not going to make this decision.  You have music sitting in front of you, now just pick a piece and play."  With that she finally did (with a little bit of anger in her eyes). 

Anyway, I have found she responds the most to two things : 

1.  Very fast paced and somewhat domineering attitude from me (okay, now play this right here, great! now play this, now play this, etc) 

2.  When I get quite stern and let her know what her job and "place" is  (this is not really how I feel, but this is what she responds to)

I make a point of lightening up right afterwards and cracking some kind of joke to which I energetically and freely laugh at myself (enough for the both of us, I figure if I laugh loud enough I can trick her into thinking she is laughing also, not too sure it's working though). I mix it up with trying to be her friend with occasional comments along the lines of "oh, I like your hair, is that the natural color?" (hey, kids are dying their hair at all ages these days, so you never know).  I have tried being weird, not much response with that either.  Geeesh...  she is tough to read and a tough nut to crack. 

Currently we are working on music that is much below what she could be doing because she does not want to work at it, at all (and will rarely finish a piece).  My students' spring recital will be coming up in a couple of months and I have asked her if she would think about playing in it (mainly just to give her something to aim for).  Delight was not her response, but I am considering not giving her any choice in the matter (even though I used to think that this goes against my philosophy) mainly because she responds this way with everything.  So she would not do anything she does not have to do, it seems.

Okay, I feel like there just must be something I am overlooking here.  I am not sure what else to do.  Hey, what if I genuinely start enjoying and looking forward to her lessons?  Maybe it will rub off?

Any suggestions?


m1469

[steinwayguy]

Hit her.

[steinwayguy]

Alright, I was kidding.

[m1469]

Yes, I know.  But maybe I am approaching this all wrong. 

[vera]

That is a terrible predicament. It is years ago, since I had students like that, thank goodness.
You must have a positive mindset, to want to keep on trying. I have just one suggestion: At that age the student may just respond well to extremely easy jazz style pieces. I am thinking of Microjazz 1 by Christopher Norton, and there are some easy duets too. I have had students in the past, who did not want a bar of the usual learners books, and I used all the easy jazz I could find, and did get them interested. You have to pick the most basic strong rhythm pieces you can find.
You probably have to go easy on anything too "boring" technical. But make exercises from the pieces you do. If an interest develops, you can add more later.
I once taught an unwilling one right through the grades, by just using those jazz books, after she had reached grade one with conventional stuff. And would you believe it, at approx grade 6/7 level an interest developed for the 'other" music.
 The best of luck. Vera.

[whynot]

The suggestion to smack is not the worst idea I ever heard.  I think people are going to tell you to cut her loose, but I don't think you will.  It's a challenge.  So a little clarification, then.  When you say she responds, what does that mean exactly?  Does she speak then, or does she never really talk?  Does she look depressed or sullen or bored, generally?  I mean, which one specifically?  And why, when she spoke up about not wanting the lessons right in front of both her mom and the teacher, did the mom still send her for those lessons?  Did the mother ever explain this (if not, that would be my next phone call)?  Any time parameters, like she has to study for three years and then she can decide for herself?  Is the mom a frustrated pianist herself?  Is there another instrument or activity she would rather be doing?  It would be powerful for you to know what that is.  Any chance her home life is bad?  I mean, obviously it's not great, but could there be something going on that she can't rebel against there and acts out with other people instead?  Does she get to spend time alone at the piano or are the parents watching her, timing her etc?  (the end....)
      

[dorfmouse]

The girl has been honest with her parents and with you about her feelings and is undoubtedly angry that her feelings are not being respected. When anybody says I don't care, it usually means they do actually care deeply, but not necessarily about your concern, ie the music.

Anyway, I have found she responds the most to two things :  

1.  Very fast paced and somewhat domineering attitude from me (okay, now play this right here, great! now play this, now play this, etc)  

2.  When I get quite stern and let her know what her job and "place" is  (this is not really how I feel, but this is what she responds to)

If this is working I would think go with it, acknowledge her feelings but try to remain a bit detached. Being an immature young person she sees no reason why she should be sorry for your predicament or try to make things easier for you both, after all, she didn't ask to be there. Also I think trying to offer friendship,jokes etc probably won't help much. Teens see us adults, particularly teachers/parents, as terminally uncool anyway and they mostly respond best to the no-nonsense but fair approach. Also it's damaging for you when you offer niceness and friendship and it's met with a metaphorical slap in the face. You then start to feel demeaned and a failure on an emotional level. I'm talking here from bitter experience of how even very young pupils can get to you in this way. You are obviously offering her respect, your knowledge and love of music and high expectations. That's plenty; the ball is in her court.
I hope this helps a little.

[TheHammer]

Hmm, okay now you have a real problem here.
Teenager can be exhaustingly difficult, I know it, because I was one, you know it, you were one, too. In my youth I had very similar experiences to this girl. My parents quite forced me into learning the piano (with a very unfriendly, demanding, "it is all about technique" teacher), and I hated it. Luckily, that was in my pre-teens, so that I would not resist to much, but there were some conflicts, I can tell you. Then, I think I was 12, I got a new teacher, very frienldy, funny, nice to be with, you know. Still, I could not enjoy playing the piano, because I had the notion that piano was forced on me by my parents. The result was that I would never do as much as I could in the lessons with her, would not prepare even the most easy pieces sufficiently (I admit it was not that bad as with your student, but quite similar). To that time I just knew that I would have to stop piano when there was a chance and I looked forward to that day.
Now, two main events occured that changed my attitude completely (that is probably the helpful part of my post ). First, this teacher was extremely patient, friendly understanding. She never forced me on anything, gave me all the choices I would have. I remember once playing Shostakovich and hating it, and after playing it like three months, she said: "You do not like it, do you?" "No." "Well, okay, then stop it, we play something different."
At the same time she was so sympathic, that I really had to like hear (not because she wanted to be friends with me, that is most dangerous for your relationship with her, do not do that. Teenagers feel it, they hate it, they hate you. She would tell me some things about her relationship to the music, how she would feel the pieces, how she was impressed by her father playing cello making her cry, her experiences in college, etc.).
As you might presume, that really led nowhere in my development as a pianist (technique-wise), but it would make the lessons bearable for me.
Now, eventually I really liked her, but still was not very excited about the music. You cannot force love to the music. The girl may like you in the end, but she will never admit it when you force her to play the piano in any way she does not want. And she probably will  not accept the beauty of piano playing until she has some distance to her current situation.
The second event was my teacher getting a baby (not from me, stupids). She had to stop teaching for two years, so I would not have to look her in the eyes when telling that stopped (that was pretty lame, but I was like 16 then ). Eight years I was forced to play the piano, and now I was free. I would still play the "Entertainer" some times, but that was pretty much it. My parents accepted that I would not continue to play, stopped urging me, you get it. Anyway, three months later I heard the Aria from the Goldberg Variations played by Glenn Gould in a movie. I loved it. Then I heard a pianist who would make a comedy show with all the most fanciest stuff with classical music. I heard Beethovens Fifth and started to take interest. I would hear Mozart on a TV programme. Some weeks later I had thirty CD's of classical music and a bunch of new notes. I started playing some real stuff (without a teacher) like Beethoven sonatas, could not do them, but wanted, and practiced all day. I made progress (through other pieces) like I never would before. One year later I could sightread through the pieces I had struggling with with my teacher.

Today I am thankful that my parents forced me to play the piano, that my first teacher taught me some technique. But I really love my second teacher for giving me so much advice and really giving me her notion of experiencing, living music, with words I still remember, I can understand today, but would think of as nonsense back then.

OK, now that was pretty a long story, so here is my actual advice (note that this is just based on my personal experience and how you told your story, it may be very probable that all I am saying does not apply to your student).
1. Be your yourself. Completely. You seem like a frienldly, knowledgeable, caring person, and I can perfectly imagine you are a great teacher. Be friendly, laugh, try to make the lessons as nice as they can be for the girl. Do not try to make friends with her, do not try to make jokes all the time, or anything. (Really, that thing about "I like your hair" was most stupid. She must have despised you )

2. Forget about progress as a pianist (concerning repertoire). All you can do for her is to get rid of this notion "My mom is forcing me to play the piano. It is bulls**t, and I hate everything involved in it". Give her cool pieces (Jazz or Blues is very good, if she likes it, also pop tunes. Best would be classical tunes she likes, of course - I really enjoyed Rondo alla turca back then)

3. Never, never, never try to force her. She may accept your order, she may do what you want, but she will remember it, she will hate you, she will hate the piano. Believe me, teens are like that. Do not give her the feeling that she is just a kid, don't underestimate her. Especially clever teens have this belief that they are the only clever ones in the entire world, all others (adults!!) being just boring caught-ups in everyday routine...

4. Accept the notion that it is probably impossible to stir up some enthusiasm in her, that piano is not the real thing for her - it may be the best for all people involved to stop teaching her . On the other hand, perhaps her mother just will bring her to the next teacher, so if you feel that it is actually possible for you to lighten up the life of this girl, give it a try.

5. Speaking to her mother can be adviseable, if you want to get rid of the kid (trying to persuade the mother that piano playing is not the best for her daughter). If you want to try it with the girl, as I see it, talking to the mother will be seen as a "conspiration" against her and she will never accept you...


Okay, now that was really long, and I fear it is all useless stuff, but anyway... Now that I have written it, I will click on the post button...

Best luck with your student,

[TheHammer]

As usual, seconds after I hit the post button dozens of new thoughts come to my mind I have not thought of before.

I just asked myself what would have happened if my second teacher had introduced me to classical music? Most probable, I have to say, I would have hated it .
Everything coming from you (the teacher) will be seen as something from her mother, and that means, coming from a force, against her will. You have to accept that this girl's will is perhaps the only directive you can base your teaching on (at least you have to concern it)...

And another thing. One could argue that you should force her to more difficult pieces, to teach here all relevant techniques, give her music to listen to, because, in the end, she will realize how good it was that she was forced to play the piano, and she will be thankful. Whereas, if you now give her some freedom, are not so urging (btw, I am not saying that you should sitting in the lessons talking nonsense and forgetting all about the piano. You should keep her busy, giving her pieces she can understand and value in a decent way, pieces she has fun with.), so if you do all that, then she will never make progress and will have lost her most important years, when everything is easy (considered piano learning) and you will be to blame, because you hindered her in making progress.
That may apply to you, I don't know. But, ask yourself this question: Is it really good for a teenage girl to grow up constantly being forced to do something she does not want? Being forced to put all her energy in something she hates? I even doubt you could reprogramme her in a way she would eventually do it, but if you could it would be most harmful, IMO.

I have this slight feeling that there will be some other thoughts on this issue popping up in my mind... Stay discussing

[edit] Oh yeah cool, here is another thing: Since this girl will not allow you or any adult to make her enjoy the piano, I think another tactic could be of some benefit: Is it perhaps possible for you to arrange a duet with another student (not necessarily piano four-hand, any other instruments would be just as good, or even a singer). That would show her that even people of her age can have fun with classical music (it would have to be someone around 13/14, slightly older than her, so that she has some respect, and you must not mention that you have decided to arrange this because you think it will be good for her, or anything: She will immediately refuse it. Just say it as if it was something completely natural for a piano student to play some duos (as it should be, actually...).)
Oh, and it would not harm if this other student was actually a sympathic (=attractive) guy...


Best luck

[m1469]

Vera wrote:

At that age the student may just respond well to extremely easy jazz style pieces.

Okay, this is a good idea.  I will get some to have on hand.  I will explore more repertoire, I have a limited amount at this point, maybe it is time to purchase more.



whynot wrote:

When you say she responds, what does that mean exactly?

I mean that she will actually stop arguing with me and just do what I am asking of her.  Getting her to listen has been a very big thing.  If she cannot do something easily within the first "try" she will pull her hands away from the piano and declare that she does not have the coordination to do it.  She is doing this less and less actually.  But, it has taken some serious enthusiasm on my part to convince her that it is indeed possible for her to do.  She is starting to trust that when she listens to me, it is helpful.

Does she speak then, or does she never really talk?

She does not really ever talk unless I prod.  Which is fine I guess.  I was like that too, but in my case it was because I was extremely shy.  I don't think this is the case with her.  But, I am finding it tough to find anything about her life that she is truly interested in. hmmm... I usually make efforts to find out what kinds of things my students are interested in, besides piano, so I can figure out how to relay information in ways they will understand.  We have talked about some of that stuff and there will be a glimmer of free exchange between us, but no real excitement on her part for the activities themselves.   They are just things that she does as far as I can tell.

Does she look depressed or sullen or bored, generally?

Maybe I am in denial, but I don't think she looks bored.  Not predominantly anyway.  She does not smile very often at all, however, and is generally just closed.  Does this qualify as sullen?  I don't know.  But perhaps this is how I would describe her.

Did the mother ever explain this (if not, that would be my next phone call)?

Well, her mother is the first person I talked with out of their family.  She told me straight out on the phone that their daughter was very smart, most things come easily, she had lessons in the past and quit.  They have been waiting over the following years to see if an interest would develop, but as it had not been manifesting on its own, they started feeling as though they could not wait for it to happen.  They feel that music is a very important aspect of a person's upbringing and therefore, they were going to have to force her to do this hoping she would thank them later (as is not uncommon).  So...

And why, when she spoke up about not wanting the lessons right in front of both her mom and the teacher, did the mom still send her for those lessons?

Because I came across as very confident that we would find something that works for this student (I still feel confident, I am just needing to re-evaluate what I am doing).

Any time parameters, like she has to study for three years and then she can decide for herself?

Actually, I am not sure about this one.  Maybe I will ask her folks.

Is the mom a frustrated pianist herself?

No, I don't think so.  I do think I recall her telling me though that either she had wished she had done more with music in general while growing up, or that she had done some and realizes the importance.  I don't remember for sure though.  Maybe I should ask.

Is there another instrument or activity she would rather be doing?

Not that I know of, but I have never really asked.  Perhaps I will.

Any chance her home life is bad? I mean, obviously it's not great, but could there be something going on that she can't rebel against there and acts out with other people instead?

From what I can percieve, they seem like a stable family as far as the folks go.  Who knows what exactly goes on beneath the surface.  But it is not like Dad and Mom are showing up late and drunk and negligent of their daughter.  They are generall happy seeming.  But one can never be too sure these days.

Does she get to spend time alone at the piano or are the parents watching her, timing her etc?

This is another very good question.  I think her practice is timed "you must sit here for 20 minutes and practice" type thing.  So I imagine that the folks are somewhere around most of that time.

So, I guess the main thing I am wondering is exactly what kind of angle I am needing to take with her.  Do I just go for lots of information so later on in life she will have it?  Getting her to like me is definitely not of much importance to me other than trying to help her become interested in the activity.  My main goal is to help her understand music and the piano well enough for her to be able to sit down and either pick out things that she has heard, or read some piece of music she knows she likes.  Even if it is just an occasional thing she does and a once-through just for the fun of it.

So that's where it's all at.

I very much appreciate your replies,

m1469

[abell88]

If she has nothing in life she's actually interested in, it doesn't sound good. It sounds to me as if she *may* be depressed...12 years can be a very, very hard age.  Have you tried any easy classics -- even a simple arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon or Fur Elise might be a comfort to her, if that's the right way to put it.

Alice

[vivace]

Is it possible that she could be overly self-concious, which is sometimes typical at that age?

Maybe her self-confidence is low about her playing (and then probably other things in her life) and she expresses it though the "I don't care" answers.
With my younger sister as one example of this, I've noticed that some at that age (mostly girls) are afraid to choose a piece to play in the lesson for fear that the teacher would think that they thought it was the "best" they had to offer. You could also apply to other nonchalant behaviors, in some cases.

I would think that a way to combat that this is to focus on presenting certain small challenges or problems in her music so that she could solve them in the same lesson; in other words, set up a few challenges that she could  solve to boost her confidence. I realize this is typically done in lessons but perhaps you could specifically approach it from that standpoint and see what happens.

I could be wrong, but there's my two cents...

[anja]

You wrote, "Maybe I'm overlooking something here." And that something is the girl does not want to take piano lessons. You should tell her directly that you admire her as a person but would like her to take a break from piano until she is ready to resume with enthusiasm.

She will then report this to her parents, and the mother will call you back in a panic. And that's when you say, Katie has shown a lack of desire, and requires a break to reassess. If Katie is interested in resuming, it would be good for her to call me, rather than you."

Then play wait and see. In the meantime, respect yourself and get another student or take on a paper route. But do not undermine yourself by doing things like beating a dead horse.

[kilini]

Depression? Nah. She seems to be an immature brat who just needs to be told that the world doesn't revolve around her and her cares. Positive talks usually amount to no good to preteens.
And she quit? Then her mother probably shouldn't have forced her to continue again...

[Torp]

m1469,

There is a book you can read that may help you understand this child's behavior.  It is called, "Raising Self-Reliant Children in a Self-Indulgent World" by H. Stephen Glenn.

In a nutshell, all behavior is driven by perception.  This child's perception is that her decisions don't matter.  Her parents have shown her that by "forcing" her to take lessons when her decision was not to.  I'm guessing that most other decisions in her life are made for her too.

This is why she tends to "respond" when you take charge and make the decisions for her; it's what she's used to.

The book mentioned above is written from the context of how to be a more effective parent in terms of teaching children many needed skills.  However, you may find that the information in the book can provide some very deep insights into behavior in general (I found it extremely beneficial in undestanding my own behavior), why people engage in those behaviors, and how to develop strategies to help people change those behaviors.

Again, in a nutshell, since behavior is driven by perception, perception needs to change before behavior will change.

This child's perception is that she is powerless in her life.  You can continue to reinforce this perception, which WILL have short-term results.  Or, you can work on ways to change her perception, guaranteed a MUCH tougher job with little short-term result, with the potential for long-term results.

I'm sure this post will raise more questions than answers so feel free to ask whatever you wish.

Jef

[m1469]

Wow that's a great suggestion Torp and I can already tell I am going to lean a lot about my own behavior as you mentioned.  It makes a lot of sense.

Thanks,

m1469

[whynot]

The book sounds fabulous, as does the diagnosis.  I'm going to buy it today.

[m1469]

Well, I just went out and bought it and I have already started to read it.

[timothy42b]

This student is in some ways not unlike my daughter, who I'm forcing to take lessons against her will.

I explained to both my kids that music was a core course, just like math, science, and English.  They did not need to do it as a profession, or as a hobby, but they were going to take a limited amount as a class.  I preferred that they take band in school, because it is more social and more fun (and teaches teamwork), but my oldest didn't like that idea and chose piano lessons outside of school. 

I told the teacher the same thing.  No secrets here. 

My daughter does practise, and makes faster progress than I do.  I think this is because she is a good student generally, and won't accept failure in any course.  Occasionally she seem to enjoy some of her piano successes, other times it's a chore.  That's okay.  Just like math. 

Is your student allowed to fail math?  I think not.  Can she skip her science homework if she feels like it?  Nope. 

Because it would hurt her grades.

You do give her grades, right? 

I don't think piano lessons have to be restricted to the enthusiastic ones who'll make a concert pianist career or even a lifelong hobby out of it.   They can be just like any other core course you have to take.

This assumes definite expectations and probably a limited amount of effort.  Kids take two years of foreign language in school, it's probably fair to make them take two years of piano.  I'd like her to take more and become accomplished, but the first two years are going to teach her the fundamentals, and that's what my purpose is. 

[torchygirl]

m1469-

This girl is very lucky to have you for a teacher (and very lucky that you need the money!).  I was very much like her as a youth, so I can try to recall (oh, so many years back) what would have worked for me.

One thing I will tell you is that there is a big burden placed on a child who is so often told how gifted they are.  I often got this message as a child, and I could see how many things I screwed up or wasn't as quick on as I "should" be.   I very much got the message that I had to be extremely good at everything right away, and that talent meant more (and was more important) than hard work.  I think that is a terrible attitude to have.  For me, if I wasn't superior at something immediately I didn't think I should work harder at it, I thought that I didn't have a gift for it.  Of course, there were a lot of things I wasn't good at without any effort.  And I missed out on many of them.  I had no idea how to study until I was in college for a couple of years.  I think it's very important to give children the message that (in most cases at least) you've got enough talent that if you choose to work hard at it, you can succeed (within reason...another idea that is probably pervasive in this whole culture is that success means fame).

Anyway, is it possible that now it seems she has been told that her problem is not a lack of work, because she is so smart if she tried just a little bit she would be brilliant?   What a setup for failure!

I think you should give her the message that she may learn piano faster than some, but there is no substitute for practicing.  She needs to have weekly goals set up for her.  Maybe you can work out a reward system with her parents.  I would make the goals both based on time spent practicing, and on learning some facts, ideas, pieces (or parts thereof). 

I like what Vivace said (well, most everyone here has so many good ideas) about building her confidence by having her succeed.   I also liked what Dorfmouse said that you as her teacher must not try too hard.  This is her lesson, let her know what you expect of her, have her parents let her know what will happen if she doesn't meet those expectations (losing TV, phone privileges or time with friends), and then make sure it happens.  If you tap dance too hard for her, she won't respect you (have found this from both sides of the dance floor). 

I would definitely try to have a lesson planned in advance.  Give her choices, but don't waste time waiting for her with her "I don't cares."  I would keep the lessons kind but brisk.  If she won't choose, then you choose.  Eventually, if she does care, she will choose.
 
Play to her strengths as much as possible.  Being sharp, she may enjoy learning a bit of theory.  Perhaps you could task her with analyzing a piece in some way?  Maybe have her make up a simple song.  This is besides working on a piece.  You might give her an easy but *very slightly* more difficult looking piece to work on (saying its because she's a sharp kid and you want to challenge her), then show her how to break it up into really managable bite sized chunks.    You might want to write down her *daily* goals for her in the beginning.  Help her pick out a time to practice.  If you're up for it, have her call you if she can't achieve the goal (so *you* make sure she keeps her privileges).  Set her up to succeed, and then let her do the work.  I think that she will find joy with this when she finds accomplishment, don't you?  So you are kind, strong, and very, very clear with her, but you don't do her work or you will take that away from her.

Anyway, this probably would have worked for me as a child, and now as an adult I'm working on keeping at working at things...wish my teachers and parents would have made me do that rather than being so focused on whatever innate brain power I might (or might not  have.

Best of luck, and I hope this helps a bit,

Karen

[Torp]

Well, I just went out and bought it and I have already started to read it.

Congratulations.  I think you'll find it very interesting.  One thing I have found, while using this book as the text for classes, is that discussion and feedback are key.  Please feel free to ask anything you wish.  I am always willing to discuss this material in depth.

Feel free to contact me via email (it's posted in my profile) if you want to take the discussion "off-line."

The book sounds fabulous, as does the diagnosis. I'm going to buy it today.

It is a fabulous book.  I think you'll enjoy it.  My offer above is for you as well.  I am lucky to have a group of friends and colleagues with whom I can discuss ideas and solutions.  I believe this has helped to more rapidly integrate the information.

Jef

[m1469]

Congratulations.  I think you'll find it very interesting.  One thing I have found, while using this book as the text for classes, is that discussion and feedback are key.  Please feel free to ask anything you wish.  I am always willing to discuss this material in depth.

Feel free to contact me via email (it's posted in my profile) if you want to take the discussion "off-line."

Jef

Thank you very much.   Actually I very well may take you up on this offer.  I have already been quite taken by what I have read. It is one of those things that is just exactly what I need and when I need it.  It is already illuminating some things for me in quite remarkable ways.  I already have some thoughts about it and I imagine there will be many more as I read.

Thank you everybody who has contributed ideas to this thread.  I am actually quite excited about when I meet with this student again this week.  I am making this somewhat of a project now.  Thank you very much.


m1469

[Torp]

Thank you very much. 

You're welcome.

Jef

[whynot]

TimR, I have thought for my entire life that I would never do what you're talking about, but you may have changed my mind (in a matter of seconds).  That's pretty interesting.

Torchygirl, your post was profound.

[m1469]

TimR, I have thought for my entire life that I would never do what you're talking about, but you may have changed my mind (in a matter of seconds).  That's pretty interesting.

Torchygirl, your post was profound.

Actually, yes, whynot you took the words out of my deep head... he he.  I feel really stupid spouting off what I am about to spout off, but I cannot express how grateful I am for the help that each individual has given here.  I am so full with it all and with new inspiration, I hope that I am expressing myself (I am exhausted).  I am going to be using ideas from every post and probably I will be writing in again after I get organized and put some of this into practice (I am really excited, very much).  Thank you so much again.

m1469

[Bob]

Can you ask her parents what she likes and find music from that?  A tv show, musical, some type of theme?  Maybe there's a way to have her hear the music and get her to want to play it?

If she's depressed and not interested in anything, maybe some depressed music?

Maybe more social, like with the duets?  I see someone else mentioned this.


This may be too much ($), but maybe there's a way you could give her a gift that would force her to choose something? 

Maybe a way for her to see other students her age or the "piano culture"  a concert maybe?  Pop piano?


She has to like some music.  I haven't met anyone that didn't like some kind of music.

Maybe she could composer her own piece?

[timothy42b]

TimR, I have thought for my entire life that I would never do what you're talking about, but you may have changed my mind (in a matter of seconds).  That's pretty interesting.

Torchygirl, your post was profound.

I am not sure that I am right in what I am doing.  There is no instruction manual for parenting.   I do the best I can and hope not to fall too short. 

I would not make my daughter suffer if she really couldn't stand it, but I also don't want her to expect only to have to do the fun things.  I think music is important enough to require a child have some organized exposure. 

[torchygirl]

I agree with TimR.  Sometimes you just have to decide your kids need to do something.  I think helping them attain musical knowledge and skill is a very great gift that you can give to your children (in your case, m1469, your students).  Having skills and expressive abilities can help insulate you from life's ups and downs.  And a music teacher that wants so much to help someone and loves to learn and improve is a very, very wonderful thing indeed!

Looking back over my post (thanks for your kind words, whynot), I see a couple of things that don't quite say what I want (or at least aren't clear).  But maybe I can sum up my view by assigning roles (this sort of thing helps me keep my head clear when I'm feeling out of my element some):

Student: Well, um, student!  Recalcitrant or no.

Parent:  In this case, discipllinarian/enforcer/rewarder.  Let them do all the penalty work for sure (if they are OK with this, obviously).  This is their idea, and they are the ones who need to back it up. 

Teacher (m1469):  Font of knowledge, grace, beauty, kindness     One who really wants her student to succeed, likes her, is in her corner, and respects her abilities.  But not one for wasting time....there's too much to learn and go over.  One who coolly and cerebrally assesses the situation hoping to find the best way to help her student understand the music.  For some reason the image of Glenda the Good Witch keeps coming to mind ("You had it in you all the time, Dorothy") said laughingly - but seriously too.

Okay, I hope I haven't gone on too much!   But please just keep in mind m1469 that this family is very lucky to have you.  Even if it doesn't seem like you are having much success at times.  I think we'd all love to hear how it's going with her (but don't feel rushed to report!).

Thanks always to all of you for so many great ideas!  This forum has been so helpful to me.

Karen

[whynot]

So, how is our little sulker doing?  By the way, I've been thinking that this girl would be dumbfounded if she ever saw this thread.  All these complete strangers caring so much about her feelings and her piano experience.  She wouldn't believe it!  (I don't suggest for a moment that she should actually see it, but it is an interesting thought, nonetheless)  Update, please.

[m1469]

Okay, well I think there is some progress actually.  I'll start by saying that I have begun to read the book that Torp suggested up above, and have realized that my student probably needs be involved in circumstances where she feels helpful and important as an individual.  So, I am in the process of conjuring up some ideas about that.

I have seen her twice since I started this thread.  Since the beginning of this I have talked with her dad about the following things :

1.  Is there a time limit to her study in terms of years, and it seems as though as long as she is under the roof she needs to be involved in music.  But, she was given the options to choose an instrument and did choose piano.

2.  Her dad said that she had just had a B-day party at home where she went to the piano and played some things for her friends !!! (he was picky about how it went, however)  but I take this as a very good sign.


And then here are some other things that have been happening :

3.  That day that I was talking with him, right after her lesson (the first one since I had started this thread) she came to her lesson seeming more interested in the instrument itself.  She was actually putting her hands on the piano on her own if there was a moment when I was looking in a book or whatever.  So I just let her and acted a little busy so she could just play around a little, and SHE DID !!!  She was letting herself just be with the instrument, and she wanted me to see it.

4.  We talked about what types of music she likes to listen to just in her everyday life and I let her know that she is always welcome to purchase this stuff and we will work on it together (I will also be purchasing some to have around).

5.  In the second lesson since this thread, she showed up with her music very much more prepared than it ever has been.  She even memorized one (as I had asked) and then took it upon herself to memorize part of another one (which I had not requested).  She wanted for me to see it, and I  congratulated her and said that it was great that she took it upon herself to memorize like that.

6.  She again expressed the desire to "play" a little at the piano, and even made some stuff up as she was sitting there.

7.  She is starting to listen to my suggestions and is willing to put them into practice there in the studio.

8.  She visibly enjoys sight-reading and is actually quite successful and seems to recognize this about herself.  She has been willing to take more chances.

9.  She and I seem to be able to have a friendly exchange together.


Huh, huh... I am out of breath.  These things are all relative to how things have been, of course, there is still quite a ways to go.  I am going to find more ways to involve her and help her find her place within this all.  Yes, I am certain she would be quite surprised by this thread !  Thank you very much.

m1469

[allthumbs]

Congratulations m1469!

My first thought when I started to read this thread was to advise you that your time is too valuable to be squandering it on a student who does not want to be there.

But, after reading some of the posts and your last submission, I have to say that I have reversed my initial opinion. That is what is great about these forums!

My only concern is your statement about needing the money for a reason in taking on a student. From reading your posts, I do realize that you are a caring and concerned teacher and such a statement harkens back to the sentiment in my first sentence.

Anyway, your students are very lucky to have a dedicated teacher as you. Keep up the good work!

Cheers

[Torp]

2.  Her dad said that she had just had a B-day party at home where she went to the piano and played some things for her friends !!! (he was picky about how it went, however)  but I take this as a very good sign.

Parents can be such dorks!!! (btw, I am one so I'm qualified to make that assessment )

Your assessment about the father's position does not surprise me however.  My guess is that if his daughter were to play something perfectly he'd scoff at it and say it was dumb luck.  Mind you, he has high standards for himself and his family I'm sure.  Nonetheless, he is suffering from a common delusion.  That delusion is, "In order for someone to do better we must first make them feel horrible about how they are doing it now.  Then they will be motivated to change their behavior."  Once you think about how that delusion plays out in everyday life I'm sure you will see it almost everywhere in action.

Your student showed some bravery.  She performed in front of her peers.  That takes some guts.  My guess is she received some pretty positive feedback from that experience and is now finding some significance in that.  Your steps to work along those lines are perfect.  We should always try to encourage behavior that is moving in the right direction.  This is the antidote to the above-mentioned delusion.

Way to go m1469!

Jef

[m1469]

My only concern is your statement about needing the money for a reason in taking on a student. From reading your posts, I do realize that you are a caring and concerned teacher and such a statement harkens back to the sentiment in my first sentence.

Well, I have thought about this since you brought it to my attention.  I will admit I felt defensive at first because I was not sure why you were bringing this up and for whatever reason it struck me when I read it.

But, since thinking about it, I have reached a new thought about the whole thing which is actually changing my overall attitude about teaching in general. 

I have taken on teaching piano for several reasons :
1.  I love piano and music
2.  I love people
3.  I love teaching
4.  I need to make money in some way

I sincerely know that even should I come to a point in my life where I do not need to make any more money, I would still want to teach piano.  I genuinely love it.  I believe it is possible for this position to fulfill more than one purpose, and indeed it is for me.  It is practical as well as desireable.  There are indeed other ways to make money, should I not enjoy teaching and should I not have a genuine concern for my students and their progress. 

Some of these other ways of bringing in money, I have had to make what seemed like very big decisions about along the way, and those decisions have brought me to where I am now and I am not unhappy with this (though sometimes not as grateful as I could be).  I have chosen this deliberately, consciously, with love and compassion.

However, I can see your point and I think it is time for me to grow out of some attitudes and mentalities I have not been alert enough to.  There is a common thought among some teachers, that it is such a pleasure to teach (or should be), that one would do it without pay if it were practical for them.  At least this is what people like to say, and I think that people feel they should feel this way.  As one who has experience teaching knows, not all individuals are what most people would label as a "joy" to teach, but quite the opposite even. 

I think the thought among some teachers whom generally say that they "love" their job is that, these students who are not considered a joy to teach are the ones the teachers really get paid for teaching.  "That's why I get paid" they like to say (and I have said).  Maybe it's how they feel and maybe it brings them comfort.

I realized though, after reading your post, allthumbs, that this is not all teaching can be.  When it boils down to it, I am never teaching just because I need the money, no matter what dilemma I am having with my students.  I am teaching because I love it.  So, I suppose in the case where I have accepted a student who is more challenging for me, and regardless of a financial need I have made the decision to accept her, I should love this as part of the beauty in teaching and accept that I have somethig to learn from it.  Thank you.

m1469

[allthumbs]

Greetings m1469

I'm not sure how old you are, but you are very wise. My comment was in no way meant to be a criticism as such, every teacher needs to be paid for what they do.

I have taken on teaching piano for several reasons :
1. I love piano and music
2. I love people
3. I love teaching
4. I need to make money in some way

Your reasons for teaching are all valid including reason #4 and you should not feel defensive about it.

The point I was trying to make was that your time is too valuable and in limited supply to waste on someone who doesn't care if they learn or not. That space in your daily teaching schedule could be for a student really wanting to study and who needs a teacher like you. Taking it to the extreme, if all your time was taken up with those former types of students, where would the oportunities for the latter types of students be to have a teacher as caring as yourself?

I realized though, after reading your post, allthumbs, that this is not all teaching can be. When it boils down to it, I am never teaching just because I need the money, no matter what dilemma I am having with my students. I am teaching because I love it.  So, I suppose in the case where I have accepted a student who is more challenging for me, and regardless of a financial need I have made the decision to accept her, I should love this as part of the beauty in teaching and accept that I have somethig to learn from it. Thank you.

m1469

I knew you knew that all along, that is why we teach! Congratulations!

Cheers

PS Can you tell me what a Newbie Jr. Member is?

[m1469]

Greetings m1469

I'm not sure how old you are, but you are very wise. My comment was in no way meant to be a criticism as such, every teacher needs to be paid for what they do.

Your reasons for teaching are all valid including reason #4 and you should not feel defensive about it.

The point I was trying to make was that your time is too valuable and in limited supply to waste on someone who doesn't care if they learn or not. That space in your daily teaching schedule could be for a student really wanting to study and who needs a teacher like you. Taking it to the extreme, if all your time was taken up with those former types of students, where would the oportunities for the latter types of students be to have a teacher as caring as yourself?

I knew you knew that all along, that is why we teach! Congratulations!

Cheers

PS Can you tell me what a Newbie Jr. Member is?

Well, you are quite kind allthumbs.  Thank you.  (I am not sure what a Newbie Jr is, I suppose it is  a new term for someone who is relatively new but has over 25 posts.  Something like that, but congratulations  ).

m1469

[tds]

it's easy, mayla. really, my view is that she is worth the $ 50. oops, sorry, is it $ 75? well, neither $ 75! how many times have you kicked this kid out of your studio. i only allow myself to show where the door is twice ( two times, that is ). the third time is when we say bye to each other with utter relief.

yes, at times life gets much simpler, when less effort is put. my one cent. best, tds

[Chrysalis]

just a spoiled brad with a lack of attention+interrest
ignore

i go for:

- ask if she likes playing piano

   if answer is no:

say she can go home and report the fortunate news to her parents.
they call u, u explain and bingo bango

dont buy books for her or search ur hearth out for pieces she does not want to play anyway. Don't waste time and effort for such somebody...

[tds]

it's easy, mayla. really, my view is that she is worth the $ 50.......

i meant to say," ...my view is that she is NOT worth the $ 50......"

[henrietta]

Hello, m1469!  This is my first day at Piano Forum.  I am extremely interested in the story of Miss "Tough Cookie."

I would recommend that you totally shift gears.  You and the girl's parents all want to instill a love of music in this young lady (?!!).  It would be lovely if she eagerly practiced several hours a day, memorized her pieces, and wowed her recital audiences.  Unfortunately, none of that is likely to occur.

If something doesn't change, she is going to hate music more and more as time passes and you are going to become her enemy more and more, even though you are obviously a very likeable person.

Right now, Miss Tough Cookie is in control.  She isn't rebellious enough to physically attack her parents, you, or the instrument.  I wonder what her parents would do if her unplesantness escalated to the point of cursing and kicking!

I recommend that you call her parents and tell them that you will be happy to teach their daughter music if they can agree to new terms.  I propose that you would tell Miss Tough Cookie that you feel the lessons thus far have been pretty much a waste of time for both of you and that in the future you will be preparing the lesson for someone who is invisible.  In that way, she can take what she wants from the lessons and she can participate according to her interest.  Even if it seems as though she is not learning, she would probably learn something just by being in the room. 

You can then plan a series of lessons in whatever format you wish.  For example, you could pretend that you are a music professor at a university.  You could present a series of demonstration/lectures.  Using this format, you could teach almost anything you wanted to about music. 

Miss Tough Cookie could bring ear plugs if she wanted.  You could tell her that you will be making recordings of your lectures to share with other music teachers.  Maybe her parents would like to pay for copies of your music lectures.  If they believe that it's important to be knowledgeable about music, this is their chance!  The possibilities are endless.

Whatever you do, it's going to have to be radical.  Miss Tough Cookie herself is setting a very high standard of a radically bad attitude and atrocious manners.

It will be best if you can choose a path that will be in the best interest of everyone concerned.  Good luck!

Henrietta

[whynot]

Um, wow, has this thread become a bit hostile toward the young student?  I was so cheered by m1469's report on the MANY aspects of progress and investment this child has shown in such a short time.  Now she's being voted off the island.  Or made invisible, which she already is to her parents.  The student has measurably improved in attitude, interest, time spent, and performance of her tasks-- again, in a very short time.  m1469, nice job.  Very best wishes.       

When parents make cutting remarks to show they're clever enough to detect the child's mistakes, I never let them escape until I've said my piece.  I have a whole speech about the top musicians still making mistakes blah blah blah, modern recordings are so edited that you never get to hear normal errors blah blah blah.  And I am willing to give the whole speech every single time a parent says this in my presence-- or if I find they're doing it at home.  They find it surprisingly hard to accept.  Also, for students with such parents, I spend extra time dealing with that philosphy in lessons, making mistakes myself on purpose and laughing it off, promoting problem-solving and appreciation of different sounds as opposed to non-existent perfection.  I think you're doing great with the student.  It's the father who's going to give you trouble.  Maybe he's the one to SMACK.

[nicko124]

I must say after reading this thread i was appaled by the negative comments by henrietta, tds and chrysalis. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for having the kind of attidude where you give up on people so easily.
What was even more of a joke was that you did it after m1469 explained that the student was getting better and becoming more enthausiastic.
Honestly you three would make crap agressive teachers which is obvious from your lack of patience: don't you understand that this student is young and goes through phases and reacts badly when she has parents with high standards.
You three were ready to accept that she will never get into piano playing as this phase she may be going through will last forever.

Whoever it was that suggested to treat her as 'invisible' needs to make sure they never become a teacher in anything if you are going to take that attitude.

All three of you just look like arrogant musicians who don't know or can't remember the stress involved in starting piano lessons when you have no choice.

 

[nicko124]

m1469 i will try and give you some hints on inspiring the student as i was once a student who never practised and showe no enthausiasm.

I know you have searched 'your heart' out for piees that she will like to play in short term and long term. Can you be more specific? What pieces have you shown/played to her? Composers?

The reason i never practiced when i first started playing was two things really:-

1. If i practised the piano it seemed like i was giving my parents a major victory as they were telling me to do something and i was doing it. If they are not musical themselves than they are not qualified to tell me when/how i practice. It isn't a case of doing practice for 3 hours it's a case of doing it in short bursts spread out over a long period. I am sure you know what i mean. When i had to practice for the sake of my parents shutting up about it: i felt like a doormat that they were walking all over and all of a sudden the reason for practising is not to play beautifully but just to do as your told.

2. My first teacher for the piano was very traditional, ok i mean she was very old and she didn't like any music outside classical for piano. For all new students she would give them waht i thought was a very intimidating boring book called 'The Musical Gateway: Very First Piano Lessons'--This basically has lots and lots of pieces that may be suited for a beginner but they sound so bad and failed to inspire.


If you are doing the same as point 2. (not saying you are) than i wouldn't be surprised if she isn't happy playing piano.
If she is feeling similar to point 1. than her focus is on rebbeling against her parents so that she feels that she has some control.

I know this sounds extreame but why don't you try playing this girl piano works that are generally considered beautiful. I am talking about pieces such as Clair De Lune which can inspire students to practice so that in a few years (depending on skill level) they may be able to play it wonderully. I know that she is probably miles off attempting Clair De Lune although some people from this forum have only been playing for a short time and alledgedly achieved better. However if you can play her a well known piece such as this and tell her that if she works hard for herself not her parents than she can achieve this and more on piano.
Even though this piece is a high level (Grade 7) and not really suitable for a begginer you would be surprised at how much more inspired she would be to try harder.

I am not trying to say this is a blueprint to improve the attitude of your student but this is just one suggestion based on my experiences in the students role.

Good Luck

[tds]

I must say after reading this thread i was appaled by the negative comments by henrietta, tds and chrysalis. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for having the kind of attidude where you give up on people so easily.
What was even more of a joke was that you did it after m1469 explained that the student was getting better and becoming more enthausiastic.
Honestly you three would make crap agressive teachers which is obvious from your lack of patience: don't you understand that this student is young and goes through phases and reacts badly when she has parents with high standards.
You three were ready to accept that she will never get into piano playing as this phase she may be going through will last forever.

Whoever it was that suggested to treat her as 'invisible' needs to make sure they never become a teacher in anything if you are going to take that attitude.

All three of you just look like arrogant musicians who don't know or can't remember the stress involved in starting piano lessons when you have no choice.

 

ballet teacher, composition teacher, drawing teacher, math teacher, computer teacher, karate teacher, boxing teacher, golf teacher, cooking teacher, chess teacher, singing teacher, et al, should understand that it is eventually up to their student to decide what kind of life s/he wants to live.

"You three were ready to accept that she will never get into piano playing as this phase she may be going through will last forever" mr. nicko

my sister's math professor says piano is not everything; one of my piano teachers was never into chess; my governer hates opera; my neighbour's niece's football coach hate the piano to the guts; our bank director has a great family and only listen to classical music now and then; my cousin loves his business and seems to be able to live reasonably happily without being able to do proper gardening.  

you see where this leads to? can you see the big picture now? correct, the world offers countless variety of things. we live surrounded by vast options to choose, live with, or simply neglect! it is the individual him/herself who eventually decides. it is he/she who lives his/her life and not his/her piano, or pingpong, or art teacher!

all types of teacher can only do so much between their lines of responsibility and job ethic. constant onesided pushes not only won't do any good to either parties, it brings damages and scars to the poor, overwhelmed liltle kid. just remember one thing, nicko, a good percentage of people in the world can live their life considerably smoothly without being able to.....ehem... play the piano.

"Honestly you three would make crap agressive teachers...." mr. nicko

i said what i had to say in this thread without any personal attacks. yet, what you wrote is uncalled for! you owe me ( and two others, i believe ) apologies.



best, tds

[nicko124]

ballet teacher, composition teacher, drawing teacher, math teacher, computer teacher, karate teacher, boxing teacher, golf teacher, cooking teacher, chess teacher, singing teacher, et al, should understand that it is eventually up to their student to decide what kind of life s/he wants to live.

"You three were ready to accept that she will never get into piano playing as this phase she may be going through will last forever" mr. nicko

my sister's math professor says piano is not everything; one of my piano teachers was never into chess; my governer hates opera; my neighbour's niece's football coach hate the piano to the guts; our bank director has a great family and only listen to classical music now and then; my cousin loves his business and seems to be able to live reasonably happily without being able to do proper gardening.  

you see where this leads to? can you see the big picture now? correct, the world offers countless variety of things. we live surrounded by vast options to choose, live with, or simply neglect! it is the individual him/herself who eventually decides. it is he/she who lives his/her life and not his/her piano, or pingpong, or art teacher!

all types of teacher can only do so much between their lines of responsibility and job ethic. constant onesided pushes not only won't do any good to either parties, it brings damages and scars to the poor, overwhelmed liltle kid. just remember one thing, nicko, a good percentage of people in the world can live their life considerably smoothly without being able to.....ehem... play the piano.

"Honestly you three would make crap agressive teachers...." mr. nicko

i said what i had to say in this thread without any personal attacks. yet, what you wrote is uncalled for! you owe me ( and two others, i believe ) apologies.



best, tds

To tear apart your main argument i will refer to this:-

"my sister's math professor says piano is not everything; one of my piano teachers was never into chess; my governer hates opera; my neighbour's niece's football coach hate the piano to the guts"

Maths Professor - Adult - says 'piano is not everything'

Piano Teacher - Adult - never into chess.

Football Coach - Adult - hates the piano to the guts

Do you see the pattern that is establishing here, everyone you have mentioned are all adults and so they have their hobbies, likes and dislikes established. Thats good for them.
However here we have a girl (perhaps young) who may have been put off the piano by her parents who obviously force her to take lessons. This doesen't mean she will forever dislike piano it just means that she is having a bad experience. At the same time it doesen't mean she will definately warm to it and like it.

If you read some of the earlier posts you will realise that there are signs that she is beggining to warm to playing.

To further support this i will use an example of myself to show that the possibility is there to have a bad experience with piano and than warm to it.
My parents forced me to take lessons and through this bad experience i didn't feel in control and was put off piano for years. It was only when they gave up trying to control me when i was inspired to play and beome really good. This at least shows that there is the possibilty of this scenario ocuring with this girl: the 'tough-cookie student'.

The suggestion that one of you made was to basically treat her as "invisible",(isolate her and give up on inspiring her). 

That was a pretty stupid suggestion to make after the post which showed the student was improving and showing more enthausiasm. You were just being negative henrietta.

Equally, tds you suggested that she should be 'shown the door' which is negative as well seen as the student is starting to do well.


Finally tds i know you asked for three apologies but i am afraid that i am not going to apologise for disagreeing with you. However i will give you a bit of credit for not throwing crude insults at me as i thought you would.

Think about what i have said, most importantly see that my point is your negative comments came after the thread which showed the students enjoyment of piano increase.
Also consider that i was a tough cookie student once and now i am inspired by being a pianist so you cannot set in stone ones ambitions for a young child.

[nicko124]

I have decided that i will apologise to the three of you if i was a bit harsh in what i said regarding your opinions. However i stand by the fact that i disagree with what you said and thought it was negative regarding the student who is obviously gaining more interest.

If you want to counter any points that i have made or discuss it than i gurantee that i won't argue and it will be a friendly discussion.
Peace.

[Kohai]

i meant to say," ...my view is that she is NOT worth the $ 50......"

I have come to the conclusion in my life that living itself is not worth the money, ever.  It is worth the experience.  Even should I have money to spend on whatever I choose, it would be the experience that follows which excites me.  What good is money in and of itself?  It is only good if you use it, and it's use can provide experience.

I do not have any experience teaching piano, but I have a lot of experience with people in various venues.  Within some of those venues I am considered a teacher.  I have realized that if I am doing my job correctly, there is no such student whom I would label as "worth the money", but more they are worth the experience.  This even includes challenging students.  If I am doing my job correctly, these challenges or are worth the experience.  Even good students should be a challenge to a good teacher, it is simply a different sort of challege, however, both circumstances should encourage growth.

The experience involved in teaching is forever about learning how to set boundaries and guidelines for one's self.  It is about the teacher's discipline more than the students'.  What and how to accept, and what not to; it is a lesson of life. 

If by accepting a student, whatever the case, it is helping one to grow and learn then it seems to me worth the experience.  All students will eventually leave their teacher's studio, some quicker than others and under different circumstances.  When this student in question leaves and under what circumstances is not really the issue, because it will surely happen.  More is the issue of how the teacher and student can grow in the time they have together, and if it is not possible for this to happen within any acceptable way, then the answers are already there. This particular case does not seem to be unacceptable, and is perhaps greatly worth the experience.

Kohai

[tds]

there are a couple of things I wanna mention:

1.   by the time I posted my first take, I only readm1469original post. My bad. I should have read the rest.
2.   from the original post, I learnt that whatm1469had for several months was a spoiled brat who has not shown interest on piano. the fact that “she does not want to work at it, at all (and will rarely finish a piece).” is NOT acceptable.
3.   every teacher has his/her own standard. to me, a spoiled brat who does not show interest in learning and has not worked considerably well ( let alone the one who doesn’t practice at all! ) is a waste of time and energy. there are other students who can learn alot from me
4.   I like reading the starting improvements thatm1469described in her later posts. here are my other reactions:

   a. I am eager to hear more updates re. the student's progress up to 3-4 months ahead.
   b. if I had been mayla, I would have set clear basic rules of attending my studio, AND reinforced them:

   b.1. I am their teacher and they are my students
   b.2. I encourage questions and open discussion. But NO childish remarks, such as, “I don’t care”, “I don’t want it”, “I’ll do what I want” are EVER accepted!
   b.3. students MUST come for lessons prepared.
   b.4. students attend all lessons on time. In case, it is not possible, they must notify me preferably 24 hours prior to their scheduled lesson.

5.   as to answer mr. nicko:

To tear apart your main argument i will refer to this:-

"my sister's math professor says piano is not everything; one of my piano teachers was never into chess; my governer hates opera; my neighbour's niece's football coach hate the piano to the guts"

Maths Professor - Adult - says 'piano is not everything'

Piano Teacher - Adult - never into chess.

Football Coach - Adult - hates the piano to the guts

Do you see the pattern that is establishing here, everyone you have mentioned are all adults and so they have their hobbies, likes and dislikes established. Thats good for them.

Mr. nicko, you do not seem to understand my message, THOUGH you have made my point! Indeed, the people I embodied in my pattern-ful example are all adults. They are the ones who more likely walk the life with greater responsibility on their shoulders. they are the ones who more likely deliver remarks out of insights and experience. Lastly and most importantly, they are the ones who more likely weight it all out on a scaler, whose relevancy has been checked and rechecked to fit in with their life need and expectancy.

children eventually grow up to become adults. ALL kind of teachers, are here to nurture them and equip them with knowledge, skills and "tools" necessary for adulthood.

the question is: how many fields are there in the whole worlds that can be introduced to young children? and how many sub-fields and specializations do they exist? way too many, huh, to list every single one in here? our responsibility is to introduce as many as as we can ( within reasons ) and let kids see and take participation of. if they are too young, we can only encourage the best we can and yet NOT forcing them the way many people do. sooner or later they will show genuine interest over a subject, and possess better idea as to follow where their heart, talents, intellect lead them to. no need to force them overtly onesidedly. it is as unhealthy as it can be damaging.

It is what life has to offer that seems to be neglected by many narrow-minded enthusiasts ( including violin teacher, piano teacher, singing teacher, and to their OWN field ). I think I have made my point by selecting a little variety of different fields to set a sample of. should “forcing” a kid into doing one thing, while getting all the resistence from, be more important than giving/introducing more opportunities (in healthy way) for them to have the freedom to experience?

this tough cookie student reminds me of a former asian student of mine whose life was unfairly controlled by her parents. she was never inspired. the saddest part is to witness how she struggled to take it all, she became indifferent and often depressed. what the student’s mother said tom1469was a typically enthusiastic parents' attitude. if only more parents were more sensitive to the child's well being.

“she had lessons in the past and quit.  They have been waiting over the following years to see if an interest would develop, but as it had not been manifesting on its own, they started feeling as though they could not wait for it to happen.” (mayla)

IMPORTANT: if a student gets to miss the piano/violin/golf/et al, OR if piano/violin/golf/et al, really is his/her "calling", s/he will eventually find a way bring him/herself back into it. some comes back to the same teacher, other find different ones, but, regardless. yes, we have too many witnesses for this type of scenario. i myself was one of them.


“It was only when they gave up trying to control me when i was inspired to play and beome really good.” mr. nicko

Golly, you made my point, again!


“Equally, tds you suggested that she should be 'shown the door' which is negative as well seen as the student is starting to do well.” mr. nicko

Wow…be careful, try not to interpret what other has said. Read my message again. btw, as to me, I do kick lazy, uncoorperative students out. while, those who have, three times, “been shown where the door is” are out of my studio for longer while, possibly for good.


“Finally tds i know you asked for three apologies but i am afraid that i am not going to apologise for disagreeing with you.”

I never asked you to apologize. I just stated the fact that you owed me ( and possibly two others ) apologies



“However i will give you a bit of credit for not throwing crude insults at me as i thought you would.”

Thank you, but really I do not feel like needing credit from you.

“not throwing crude insults at me as i thought you would”

that, does tell more of you.

“Think about what i have said, most importantly see that my point is your negative comments came after the thread which showed the students enjoyment of piano increase.”

I believe I’ve covered it in the beginning (# 1). And for your information, I do stick with my rules.

“so you cannot set in stone ones ambitions for a young child.”

Who is setting in stone…?

“If you want to counter any points that i have made or discuss it than i gurantee that i won't argue and it will be a friendly discussion.”

Again, that tells more about yourself. I try to be friendly and mannerly all the way.

best, tds

[tds]

I have come to the conclusion in my life that living itself is not worth the money, ever.  It is worth the experience. 

i typed dollar sign as to respond to whatm1469has said, re. needing the money. you made my point: it is NOT about money, but EXPERIENCE. we have some control as to what to and what NOT to experience. and in this matter, every one's option is different. best, tds

[nicko124]

The thing is tds you answear my arguments like a politician would, you have avoided most of the points i made. There were some however that you decided to pretend that they were yours originally.
It is an absolute joke to even try and have a discussion with you as you keep adapting your arguments to stay ahead and pretend that they were always your views. This argument is therefore a stale-mate.

You admitted yourself that you didn't read the whole thread and still you decided to comment on it, no wonder you got it wrong.

"Who is setting in stone…?"

You were, how can you forget? In one of your messages you used loads of really bad examples to explain why this girl may never be interested in piano. You failed to understand that this is not 'set in stone' (don't ask about this again, try and remember). I even gave my own real life example that i always had a desire to play piano but i just had a bad experience as a young child and thus put off.

It doesen't matter though because i kno after this post you will give a really long reply and say things like "thanks for proving my point" (WHEN IT NEVER WAS YOUR POINT TO START WITH) and "Golly, you made my point, again" (No you just can't except admitting that somebody makes a good point that you didn't think of first).

I am hopefully done with this thread as it is just a slave to a padantic debater like yourself who never budges even when they are wrong.

[tds]

The thing is tds you answear my arguments like a politician would, you have avoided most of the points i made. There were some however that you decided to pretend that they were yours originally.
It is an absolute joke to even try and have a discussion with you as you keep adapting your arguments to stay ahead and pretend that they were always your views. This argument is therefore a stale-mate.

Its easy to make sweeping statements like what you just did, BUT it is hard to back it up with relevant, sound arguments. You only made my points twice, both of whic you failed to understand my posters. I can very well prove it to you. Read the followings:

1.   your pointing out that I used adults as my example is like I am pointing out the whereabouts your nose is located in your face. Got it? Why didn’t I use children, dogs or cats, to hear the remark about their broad life view. Hello? As I said in my earlier post ( april 22, 12:46:59 pm), piano is not the ONLY way to make one happy. I have learned that many can live happily without it. countless, to be precise. there are so many options to choose from in life and a great many factors to bring about happiness. This line of thought gives birth to my pattern-ful sample, pertaining the word “adults”. they are the ones that can make my point, they are the ones who have lived their thorough life. Am I making sense? Please do not hesitate to ask if I am not so clear.
2.   my basic protest against parents who force and slave kids was explicitly written down in my post, dated on april 22. this rejection goes hand in hand with what I later wrote ( april 23 post ), as follows:

IMPORTANT: if a student gets to miss the piano/violin/golf/et al, OR if piano/violin/golf/et al really is his/her "calling", s/he will eventually find a way bring him/herself back into it. some comes back to the same teacher, other find different ones, but, regardless. yes, we have too many witnesses for this type of scenario. i myself was one of them.( tds )
   
         i was one of these people, who were forced to play the freaking piano, and therefore i bogged down. And years later I picked up again out of grown interest. SO, I stole this concept from you, huh? Hello, again?

“It was only when they gave up trying to control me when i was inspired to play and beome really good.” (mr. nicko)

I am surprised why you are not getting my message, when you yourself didn’t like over controlling done by parents. “ it was only when they gave up trying to control me…..” ( mr. n )

hmmm...


"You admitted yourself that you didn't read the whole thread and still you decided to comment on it, no wonder you got it wrong." (mr. n)

i admitted boldly the fact that i didn't read the whole thread. i said it early in my last post to you. it's very good that you noticed it. however, as for "getting myself wrong" is really a questionable thing. that comes across as a judgment, there, mr. nicko. i knew what i would have done with a spoiled brat who didnt practice for months after months, i told you, didn't i? i could teach the same amount of time yet giving most useful instructions and helps to several students! i could use the many hours for numerous masterclasses, for instance.

"Who is setting in stone…?"

You were, how can you forget? In one of your messages you used loads of really bad examples to explain why this girl may never be interested in piano. You failed to understand that this is not 'set in stone' (don't ask about this again, try and remember). I even gave my own real life example that i always had a desire to play piano but i just had a bad experience as a young child and thus put off. (mr. n)


If you don’t wanna be hailed as a person who commits false-accusations, please cite all those "bad examples". How hard is it to do it? lets get things clear, here. Note: If I am wrong, I will acknowledge it and will make public apology.

It doesen't matter though because i kno after this post you will give a really long reply and say things like "thanks for proving my point" (WHEN IT NEVER WAS YOUR POINT TO START WITH) and "Golly, you made my point, again" (No you just can't except admitting that somebody makes a good point that you didn't think of first).mr. nicko

i strive for clarity. do you?

I am hopefully done with this thread as it is just a slave to a padantic debater like yourself who never budges even when they are wrong.

Can you please refrain yourself from calling people names, and from judging ( you did the same with your last post, where you apologized, remember? ), RATHER gather all your wits to type something mannerly. i know you can do it.


By the way, of couse, your last apology accepted.

Best, tds