Reply to The Pope topic

[Daevren]

Because I didn't type all that for nothing.


I didn't say the Pope invented HIV/AIDS. I just accuse the christian church of stopping a part solution of the HIV epidemic in Africa. You seem to be ignorant of the situation. You should talk with someone that worked for a charity organisation in Africa.

Large parts of Africa are christian. The christian churches play an important role in helping charity organisations. And what do they do? They campaign against condoms while charity organisations try to inform the people. Why do the local churches do that? Because of the Pope/Vatican position. Bush is also using the money to stop AIDS to promote christian morality. So large parts of the money goes to christian organisations who actively work against condom use.

Am I still allowed to say 'stupid things'?

https://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html
https://www.cathnews.com/news/308/22.php
https://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/develop/aids/africa/0731bishop.htm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3887177.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1108182.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/934435.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1465326.stm

I am not saying the pope was a bad person. He has many positive characteristics. But this position was very very bad.

What is a 'good Islamic country'?

If you have a problem with my reasoning then deconstruct it. Don't lash out at Europeans, Muslims and people living in countries with a muslim majority. Even more so because you judge me for having 'constant animosity of the US'.  Also, maybe you want to explore this tension between the US and Europe. You might learn something.

[lfischer]

i agree fully with torp. also its quite interesting to tear apart someone elses argument. it was pretty neat seeing it done in such a professional manner.

mikeyg, how did you lock that thread? i'm not meaning to critisize, but its a bit selfish to prevent ANYONE from replying that thread. there was a lot that i wanted to say about "the black pope" not actually being the real leader of the Catholic Church, but about his role with the Jesuits.

its a bit unfair that one person can have the kind of power over online discussion. not only that but to USE that power when there is nothing really wrong with the thread in question seems a bit like covering ones ears and singing.
still, no one has yet replied, does anyone have any idea who the favourites are amongst the cardinals to become the next Pope?

[lostinidlewonder]

Please note, Catholicism and Christianity are two different things. The https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/934435.stm link above showed the anglican church push for aids treatment, "His comments came the day after the Anglican Church in South Africa strongly criticised his government for refusing to provide medication for people with HIV."

Where is it the CATHOLIC church which is only pushing to get rid of condoms.

I would like to say that the catholic church has killed more people than all the wars put together through the CRUSADES during the dark ages. They killed so many Christian Worshipers to forced them all to convert to the Roman Catholic authority. I find that the pope is a real JOKE! Why? Because look at all the people who admire him, what did he actually do the for the world? Did he ever stop anything? No he just talks. Did he condemn the WW2 killing of JEWS? No he didnt! Why? Because that meant less jews, more catholic power.

Let me also ask, why is the pope so high? What gives him the right to be above all other human worshippers of God? Christianity teachs that none of us can for one second think we are above anyone else or think we more better off, because the gift from God is free, so no one can boast! I think the pope and the entire Catholic system is based on all this rubbish of heirachy and human respect instead of respect and holiness held for God and Jesus Christ. I better say 100 hail Mary's huh.

[musik_man]

"The Crusades killed more people during the crusades than all wars put together."

 

...

 

Please don't let your philosophical objections(which I agree with) to Catholicism, turn into a blind hatred of all things Catholic.  Just because the Papacy is a flawed institution, doesn't mean that all the Popes are unchristian.

[mikeyg]

I could lock it because I created it.

[mikeyg]

i agree fully with torp. also its quite interesting to tear apart someone elses argument. it was pretty neat seeing it done in such a professional manner.

mikeyg, how did you lock that thread? i'm not meaning to critisize, but its a bit selfish to prevent ANYONE from replying that thread. there was a lot that i wanted to say about "the black pope" not actually being the real leader of the Catholic Church, but about his role with the Jesuits.

its a bit unfair that one person can have the kind of power over online discussion. not only that but to USE that power when there is nothing really wrong with the thread in question seems a bit like covering ones ears and singing.
still, no one has yet replied, does anyone have any idea who the favourites are amongst the cardinals to become the next Pope?

I just forsaw what the thread would degenerate into.

[mikeyg]

If you would like me to unlock the pope thread, say Aye!

[Floristan]

Aye!

[lostinidlewonder]

I have nothing against Catholics, it is against Christianity to outcast anyone. However I do not close my eeys to HISTORY and facts which are blatantly obvious and put the Catholic Church in the wrong. I am just suprised how so many people follow faith without question or investigation and can have so much respect for the Pope whom had never done anything for them but talk, but not the person next door to them.

[mikeyg]

Umm, remind me, how long ago was the Crusades and the inquisition?

And, for the most part, I think the pope deserves more respect than the average Joe, because, believe it or not, the average person isn't very "good".  Do you go to church?  Wky, tho listen to some guy just talk?  No, it's a feeling you get.  So, the pope doesn't just talk, he helps give people faith.

[musik_man]

Umm, remind me, how long ago was the Crusades and the inquisition?

And, for the most part, I think the pope deserves more respect than the average Joe, because, believe it or not, the average person isn't very "good". Do you go to church? Wky, tho listen to some guy just talk? No, it's a feeling you get. So, the pope doesn't just talk, he helps give people faith.

Nobody deserves more or less respect than anyone else.  That's exactly what Jesus meant when he told us not to judge.

[lostinidlewonder]

Umm, remind me, how long ago was the Crusades and the inquisition?

And, for the most part, I think the pope deserves more respect than the average Joe, because, believe it or not, the average person isn't very "good".  Do you go to church?  Wky, tho listen to some guy just talk?  No, it's a feeling you get.  So, the pope doesn't just talk, he helps give people faith.

If you Google crusades you will get lots of infomation, there is far too much info about the Crusades than we could write in a little form discussion.

I do go to church, there is one just down the road from me which i go to and help out. I do not go to worship there since the worship is on Sunday, however we do not need to go to a church to worship god, if 3 or more people come together in God and Jesus name then that is as good as a church full of worshippers. If there are only 2 people who coem together, then Jesus Christ will make the 3rd. That is written in Thomas, a book of the bible which the Catholic church did restrict for many many years (as well as a lot of other Apocrypha, Apocryphal, or hidden Books which pointed to lots of things that the Catholic church is against, like Hierachy, creating human ranks in the worship of God)

The pope may have said a lot of Good things and intended a lot of good, but tell me what he actually did himself to help the world? Not only this pope but what about the pope during World War 2? He didnt even mutter a word of critique against the Hitler regime wiping out Jews.

Princess Diana did more for the world than what the pope did, she actually went out and helped people in need and in aid. The pope just says, Yes go do this and go do that, you have my blessings. But he sits down and watches it all being done.

What is Good? It is to God s business to judge. As Musik Man mentions, we are all on the same level as one another. Read through the bible, an angle is embarassed that the humans fall to their knees to worship them, instead they say dont worship me i am your brother! Imagine that, an angle, a being of perfection doesn't even see themselves higher than us. So how can we hold the Pope, a human, to such high respect?

That is why there should be no hierachy in the worship of God because we have no excuse to consider ourselves closer or more holy in gods eyes. We are all sinners and deserve death for our sins, how can there be more than death? Should you die 1000 times instead of 10 times for your sin? Its the same thing, sin is all the same, we are all on the same level, it is how we deal with it and what we do with it, and how sin creates our relationship with God. Catholics make you even have to confess sins to other humans to be forgiven, you cannot go to God yoruself you ned to go through a father to get to God (which is also blasphemous because god says I am the ONLY FATHER)

[BoliverAllmon]

Nobody deserves more or less respect than anyone else.  That's exactly what Jesus meant when he told us not to judge.

you need to read your Bible better. oh and hear is a good idea. STUDY IT BEFORE MAKING STATEMENTS THAT ARENT TRUE!!!!

[musik_man]

you need to read your Bible better. oh and hear is a good idea. STUDY IT BEFORE MAKING STATEMENTS THAT ARENT TRUE!!!!

what was wrong with my statement?

[mikeyg]

Nobody deserves more or less respect than anyone else.  That's exactly what Jesus meant when he told us not to judge.

This may be the case for christians, or other religious peoples.  But for people like me, who don't follow christianity, judging people and making assumptions based on that assessment is common sense.

[BoliverAllmon]

what was wrong with my statement?

THe Bible doesn't say that about judging. go read it again.

boliver

[musik_man]

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Matthew 7:1-2

That's how I read these verses.  Do you think they mean something else?

[mikeyg]

I can't understand why people quote the bible in conversations with people who dont believe.

[lfischer]

What is Good? It is to God s business to judge. As Musik Man mentions, we are all on the same level as one another. Read through the bible, an angle is embarassed that the humans fall to their knees to worship them, instead they say dont worship me i am your brother! Imagine that, an angle, a being of perfection doesn't even see themselves higher than us. So how can we hold the Pope, a human, to such high respect?

That is why there should be no hierachy in the worship of God because we have no excuse to consider ourselves closer or more holy in gods eyes. We are all sinners and deserve death for our sins, how can there be more than death? Should you die 1000 times instead of 10 times for your sin? Its the same thing, sin is all the same, we are all on the same level, it is how we deal with it and what we do with it, and how sin creates our relationship with God. Catholics make you even have to confess sins to other humans to be forgiven, you cannot go to God yoruself you ned to go through a father to get to God (which is also blasphemous because god says I am the ONLY FATHER)

How can we respect another human so highly? Its not hard surely! I respect my teachers very highly. As for the Pope, I believe that we have decent "excuse" to consider him more holy than most people. What has he ever done wrong? As far as I can see, the only criticism is of what he didn't do! I myself do not believe in God, and so naturally I consider any preist to be more holy than me.

Do I blaspheme by saying that I believe that my father is my only father? Remember that God does not mean that he is your actual father, in the same way that a priest does not. It is not blasphemous to call a human 'father'. If God is the 'only father' then Jesus is a sheep.
Before anyone says 'what would you know, atheist!' I would like to point out that many of us can and do lead a Christian lifestyle without actually believing in God.

[galonia]

The pope may have said a lot of Good things and intended a lot of good, but tell me what he actually did himself to help the world?

JP II did HEAPS of good himself - as a priest in Poland after WWII, he refused to baptise the Jewish orphans who had been taken in by Catholic couples, instead encouraging the children to grow up with their Jewish faith and identity intact, demonstrating his respect for all people of all faiths.  He continued to celebrate Mass throughout the communist rule of Poland, showing great courage in fighting for freedom.  He encouraged inter-faith dialogue, always maintaining that there is one God, and we all believe in the same God, whichever religion we may proclaim.  He inspired a lot of young people to be strong in their faiths.

That is why there should be no hierachy in the worship of God because we have no excuse to consider ourselves closer or more holy in gods eyes. We are all sinners and deserve death for our sins, how can there be more than death? Should you die 1000 times instead of 10 times for your sin? Its the same thing, sin is all the same, we are all on the same level, it is how we deal with it and what we do with it, and how sin creates our relationship with God. Catholics make you even have to confess sins to other humans to be forgiven, you cannot go to God yoruself you ned to go through a father to get to God (which is also blasphemous because god says I am the ONLY FATHER)

So you do not recognise your biological father as your father?  Because God is your ONLY father?  We all need guidance from our parents, and priests play that role for many Catholics.  No one forces anyone to go to confession or Reconciliation, but if you go, it indicates that you recognise your own weaknesses, your willingness to change, and the priest provides guidance and support, because breaking old habits is always hard.  Do you say to smokers or drug addicts, "It's all your fault you're addicted, you don't deserve any help, if you want to quit, you need to make the effort yourself"?  No, there are help lines and quit lines and doctors and counsellors on hand to help break habits.  In the same way, it is hard not to be selfish and behave in an inconsiderate manner towards others, so the priest helps us face our weakness and deal with it.  He does not judge us, for he knows he is also a sinner.

I have personally never met a priest who behaves as though he is above the lay person.  All the priests I have met have been very humble, considerate, friendly, they respect other people, and in return, I have had great respect for them.  If you have never actually sat down and spoke at length with a Catholic priest, you shouldn't knock them.  Most of them are great fun and have a wonderful sense of humour as well!

[BoliverAllmon]

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Matthew 7:1-2

That's how I read these verses.  Do you think they mean something else?

I am going to put this into a new thread.

[BoliverAllmon]

 why should the pope condone condoms? Should he take the stand that premarital sex is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, but since you are going to do it anyways here are some condoms which I also don't believe in. THat is insane. He hasn't spread the HIV virus. Sex and drugs has.

[mikeyg]

Exactly. 
And notice how most people in Africa are CHRISTIAN, not catholic.  They do not heed the advice of the pope at all.  Nor does anyone really who has premarital sex.  So, if people are going to have sex, against the pope's wishes, why would they listen to him about not wearing condoms?

[BoliverAllmon]

Exactly. 
And notice how most people in Africa are CHRISTIAN, not catholic.  They do not heed the advice of the pope at all.  Nor does anyone really who has premarital sex.  So, if people are going to have sex, against the pope's wishes, why would they listen to him about not wearing condoms?

good point. sacrificing morals and giving up doesn't make a good religious leader. Compromising is out of the question.

[mikeyg]

Oh, and in regards to my post about the muslim countries, I realise that it is only a very small percentage of people who are terrorists.  However, that small number is many times larger than in other countries.  I also realise that if the people in those countries actually followed the Koran, they would be very peaceful.  But some intentionally misinterpret it to gain power and kill people.

[lostinidlewonder]

As for the Pope, I believe that we have decent "excuse" to consider him more holy than most people. What has he ever done wrong? As far as I can see, the only criticism is of what he didn't do! I myself do not believe in God, and so naturally I consider any preist to be more holy than me.

This is the very point of a belief in God and Christ, that there is nothing between you. There needs to be NO ONE to say follow me do this. Do your parents watch you grow in your own life and make decisions constantly throughout it? No, you are mostly on your own and make your own decisions. However with the Catholic system you MUST confess your sins throughout your whole life or you will NEVER be forgiven (the black spots on your soul increase as they say). This to me this is ridiculous, the fact that it is a human priest who lets himself be recognised as a FATHER and thus gives himself the authority to forgive sins and act as the high figure of respect and a saviour almost, which is the power of God and Jesus Christ only. This  Distracts what the main point is to develop your relationship with God, if it is constantly on the structure of another man then it must be a man made connection with God if you constantly go through a Catholic Priest not a divine, constant relationship.

And to say the Pope is more holy than yourself is ridiculous because every human is born into this world the same way and we all die the same way. What we do in life is of extreme importance even if it looks small in our human eyes. So we cannot start to say, this person is so good we have to celebrate them forever and do this or that whereas when this other guy dies we will just shurg our shoulders and say oh well. Look at the reasoning behind why famous people are given so much regard when they die. Look how long it lasts this regard. It will definatly not last years and years, but probably months/weeks, then people get on with their lives and mostly forget about it. Life is so much more important than thinking that decorating people with human praise will ever do anything worthwhile. God is to judge in the end so why do we even consider judging people (as good or bad) when we are still at the beginning?!

Do I blaspheme by saying that I believe that my father is my only father? Remember that God does not mean that he is your actual father, in the same way that a priest does not. It is not blasphemous to call a human 'father'. If God is the 'only father' then Jesus is a sheep.

Your biological father is of course your father and you should respect and learn a lot from your relationship with him as it will highlight your relationship with God, your one and only spiritual father and father forever, since your human father will die just like yourself, but God is awlays constant no matter what existance you are in (bar hell). The problem is that the Catholic church take the responsibility of being your spiritual father as well, which is against Gods word. Of course we should be guided and lead, but a Catholic Priest is in Gods eyes no better than the homeless man who lives on the streets! Would you let a homeless man be your spiritual guide? No! but you would let a catholic priest be one? They are both human afterall filled with sin and imperfection, just one wears nice clothes and walks and talks nice. It is all the same, we humans get tricked so easy by what we see and what we think is logically correct, bend your concept and meditate on the fact that God sees EVERYONE on the same level, so why can we not?

Before anyone says 'what would you know, atheist!' I would like to point out that many of us can and do lead a Christian lifestyle without actually believing in God.

I agree. One can live life full of Morals and yoru own concept of what is Good. But you cannot say you lead a Christian life where a Christians life is central to, the Ressurection of Jesus Christ. This belief is what is the core to all christian inspiration, hope and faith. To belief that this life is not the end, and there is more after this, and what does that mean to how we are to live today.

JP II did HEAPS of good himself - as a priest in Poland after WWII, he refused to baptise the Jewish orphans who had been taken in by Catholic couples, instead encouraging the children to grow up with their Jewish faith and identity intact, demonstrating his respect for all people of all faiths. He continued to celebrate Mass throughout the communist rule of Poland, showing great courage in fighting for freedom. He encouraged inter-faith dialogue, always maintaining that there is one God, and we all believe in the same God, whichever religion we may proclaim. He inspired a lot of young people to be strong in their faiths.

Does that require 1 million people to attend his burial? There must be a reason why so many people feel the need to be with him when he dies I am confused as to what that exactly is. If we disregard that he is a Pope, the human king of the Catholic Church, why else should we care about him passing any more than anyone else? He wasnt a prophet, his words where like any other mans, his actions like any other. He didn't shift the world to make it better which is something he definatly could have done with all the Catholic power behind his word, so yes we look at what he didnt do because his potential to effect the world around himself is greater than most. Same as you would mostly criticise/commend the pilot of an airoplane crash who has command and control instead of the stewards. This is also why Religion shouln't have heirachy because no one knows what is best, connection with God is so various and different for everyone so we cannot command it under one way.

So you do not recognise your biological father as your father? Because God is your ONLY father?

I have personally never met a priest who behaves as though he is above the lay person. All the priests I have met have been very humble, considerate, friendly, they respect other people, and in return, I have had great respect for them. If you have never actually sat down and spoke at length with a Catholic priest, you shouldn't knock them. Most of them are great fun and have a wonderful sense of humour as well!

God is my ONLY Spiritual Father, anyone else is a human with the same problems i face in life, same sinful flesh same sinful desires. We are all in the same boat that is being controlled by God! How dare any of us stand up and say, right i am now the Captain, or I am the man who stands between the Captain and yourself, if you want to talk to the big man you have to go through me. To me it seems stupid! We are talking to slaves to get to the master.

I have zero hatered for what anyone does in this world, a lot of confusion but no hatred. I adore people for doing what they think is right because they cannot be blamed for it! So i do not look at a Catholic Priest and shake my head, they are human just like me, i do not look at them any differently as if i where to look at a woman walking in a shopping centre. They are human, they do not deserve to be called my Father because they are not, if i do call them that then i am saying that they are my Spiritual Guide. Which is fine because we all need guidance, but when we have to start confessing sins through the Catholic Priest that is where i have tongue in cheek. And when they say, do hail mary's i start to raise an eyebrow. Mary for one is human, she died and never rose, she will wait for resurrection like us all. And ask a catholic father can you ever be forgiven for your sins without talking to a Catholic Father. THey will shake their heads. I would ask them, WHY, why cannot I have a relationship with God without another human being? What if i am stranded on an island, then i have no god? No hope? You see what i am trying to say?

[mikeyg]

Hey, don't judge!  It's unchristian!! 

[galonia]

Would you let a homeless man be your spiritual guide? No!

Why not?  I have no problem with respecting someone for his/her wisdom, kindness humility, and other good qualities, whatever their housing status.

Does that require 1 million people to attend his burial? There must be a reason why so many people feel the need to be with him when he dies I am confused as to what that exactly is.

No, nobody told all those people they have to attend - each of them wanted to attend.  Maybe each one felt they have been inspired by the JP II.  Isn't that a testament to what a great man he was - that he touched so many?  Just because you were not moved by his message doesn't mean others cannot be.

This is something the Archbishop of Sydney, George Pell (who will take part in the election of the new Pope) has said:

I believe strongly in the importance of individual conscience. It is indispensable.

In what way is he suggesting priests are above others?

[musik_man]

Galonia, the Bible is actually quite specific about our spiritual Father.

"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father and he is in heaven.  Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one teacher the Christ."
Matthew 23:9-10

I've always wondered why Catholic priests are called 'father' when the Bible specifically tells us not to call anyone that.

We don't need anyone to help us approach God, because of Christ's death and ressurection.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ"
1 Timothy 2:5

[janice]

We don't need anyone to help us approach God, because of Christ's death and ressurection.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ"
1 Timothy 2:5

Oh so true!!!  Amen!!

[pianowelsh]

The problem is that people look to men to be lead! God is our heavenly Father our salvation is in him not the pope or any other religious leader. I have issue with people who would jump of a bridge if they were told to by any man (it might as well be the pope) and yet if God said 'I want you obey me in keeping the day of rest' they would try to justify it any way they could ' well God are you sure?' 'what do you mean by rest?' etc etc etc. Pretty much every church has a hierarchy in terms of leadership more or less. The issue is who do you listen to do you listen to God or do you listen to your leader. Now hopefully in the majority of cases your leader who is not your 'father' but in fact a 'brother' in Christ will agree with the word of God and what he teaches will be in accordance with sound doctorine out lined in Scripture. If he doesnt its God you need to obey because hes the one who has all authority.