Technique advice

[vasily_p]

I am a first year piano student at UVU
(Their piano program is not particularly rigorous) I’ve been working on my technique and I notice that when I spend 20-30 minutes playing arpeggios if I switch to scales for 5-10 minutes they are much worse. It’s like when I play arpeggios I forget how to play scales for a little bit. Do yall have advice for how to fix this issue?

[helper17]

I am a first year piano student at UVU
(Their piano program is not particularly rigorous) I’ve been working on my technique and I notice that when I spend 20-30 minutes playing arpeggios if I switch to scales for 5-10 minutes they are much worse. It’s like when I play arpeggios I forget how to play scales for a little bit. Do yall have advice for how to fix this issue?

My suggestion:
1) Reduce arpeggio and scale speed to 50% of your current practice tempo
2) Alternate Scale and arpeggio

Examples:
Play 4 octave C major arpeggio two times followed immediately by 4 octave C major scale one time.
Play 4 octave A minor arpeggio two times followed immediately by 4 octave A harmonic (or melodic) minor scale one time.

Do for all the keys you currently practice.

Gradually increase tempo to your regular performance tempo.

Variation: Sometimes start with the scale played one time followed by the arpeggio played two times.

[ranjit]

I am a first year piano student at UVU
(Their piano program is not particularly rigorous) I’ve been working on my technique and I notice that when I spend 20-30 minutes playing arpeggios if I switch to scales for 5-10 minutes they are much worse. It’s like when I play arpeggios I forget how to play scales for a little bit. Do yall have advice for how to fix this issue?

Why don't you post a video (just the hands are fine)? Play a few scales and arpeggios. I'll make sure to respond, and other people will also chime in, I'm sure.

It could be many different things, but possibly just the differences between how the thumb crossings are executed in scales vs arpeggios.

[helper17]

Not sure if OP still here.  My suggestion - immediately stop doing 30 minute sessions on arpeggios alone.  Alternating between scales and arpeggios should naturally help improve technique of thumb usage.  Good luck.

P.S. - To start, consider doing 2 octaves for scales and arpeggios instead of 4 octaves in addition to reduction of speed.

[helper17]

I like to check myself with AI help.  Those that dislike AI - please ignore this post.  Maybe I'll start new thread to discuss AI.

Q: Someone says when they practice playing arpeggios for 30 minutes and then practice scales immediately afterwards, their ability to play scales goes way down.  to help with this, would it make sense to practice the following way:  play a 4 octave c major arpeggio 2 times then immediately play c major 4 octave scale one time?  in addition to alternating between arpeggios and scales, slow the tempo down at first.

AI: Yes, your proposed practice strategy—alternating 2 arpeggios with 1 scale and starting at a slow tempo—is an excellent way to address this specific issue.

When a pianist's ability to play scales "goes way down" after a long arpeggio session, it is usually due to muscle memory interference and physical fatigue. Arpeggios require a more open hand position and larger lateral wrist sweeps, while scales require a more compact hand and subtle thumb-crossings. Spending 30 minutes on only one can "lock" your hand into those specific wider movements, making the tighter, faster movements of a scale feel clumsy.

Why Your Strategy Works
•   Interleaved Practice: Alternating between the two patterns forces your brain and muscles to constantly "reset" and adapt. This prevents the hand from getting stuck in "arpeggio mode".
•   Preventing "Thumb Tucking" Fatigue: Practicing arpeggios for 30 minutes straight can strain the thumb's abductor muscles due to the constant large stretches. By switching to scales more frequently, you give those muscles a different type of workload before they reach the point of total exhaustion.
•   Cognitive Agility: Playing 2 arpeggios then 1 scale requires higher focus than mindless repetition. This "deliberate practice" helps internalize the technical differences between the two more effectively.

Refined Practice Tips
To make this routine even more effective, consider these adjustments:
•   The 2:1 Ratio: Your 2 arpeggios to 1 scale ratio is a good starting point, but you can also try a 1:1 ratio to maximize the "switching" effect.
•   Slow Tempo is Critical: As you suggested, start slowly. This allows you to consciously monitor the wrist: a circular sweep for the arpeggio and a steady lateral glide for the scale.
•   Vary the Key: Don't stick only to C major. Practicing this alternating pattern in keys with more black notes (like E major or B major) can actually be more comfortable because the black keys provide natural "landmarks" for the hand's arch.
•   Watch for Tension: If the scales still feel "off," check for "holding" tension in the palm left over from the arpeggio stretches. Shake your hands out for 5 seconds between the arpeggio and the scale to "reset" the muscle tone.

Q: When playing arpeggios on the piano, the thumb has to make large stretch. when playing scales on the piano, the thumb has to make a much smaller stretch. are there differences in how the wrist moves when playing arpeggios vs scales? is the thumb movement similar for both arpeggios and scales?

AI: Yes, there are significant differences in how the wrist moves when playing arpeggios versus scales, primarily due to the greater distance the hand must travel. While both techniques require a loose and flexible wrist to avoid tension, the nature of the movement shifts from subtle adjustments in scales to more pronounced, sweeping motions in arpeggios.

Wrist Movement Differences

•   Scales (Subtle Lateral Shifts):
o   The wrist generally remains fluid and follows the hand in a relatively straight lateral line.
o   Small, gradual upward lifts or rotations occur at "turning points" (thumb crossings) to facilitate the thumb passing under the third or fourth finger.

•   Arpeggios (Large Rotational Sweeps):
o   Because notes are more spaced out, the wrist must be much more flexible.
o   It often performs a "semicircle" or "cartwheel" motion, drawing a curve as the hand moves from the thumb to the fifth finger.
o   The wrist and arm act as a guide, sweeping the hand into the next position rather than relying solely on finger stretching.

Thumb Movement: Is it Similar?
While both involve "thumb under" or "thumb over" actions, the thumb's role and timing differ significantly:
•   Distance and Tension: In scales, the thumb moves a short distance (a second or third step), which is a small, natural movement. In arpeggios, the thumb must cover a much larger interval (often a fourth or more), making traditional "tucking" physically difficult and potentially tense.
•   Preparation: For both, the thumb should begin moving toward its next key immediately after the second finger plays to ensure smoothness.
•   Physical Connection vs. Speed:
o   Scales: Pianists often maintain a physical connection between notes by tucking the thumb closely under the palm.
Arpeggios: Instead of a forced physical stretch, many advanced techniques (like "Thumb Over") treat the thumb more like a regular finger, using the momentum of the arm and wrist to "leap" or "shift" the hand to the next position quickly.

[eee-_-]

I am a first year piano student at UVU
(Their piano program is not particularly rigorous) I’ve been working on my technique and I notice that when I spend 20-30 minutes playing arpeggios if I switch to scales for 5-10 minutes they are much worse. It’s like when I play arpeggios I forget how to play scales for a little bit. Do yall have advice for how to fix this issue?

Check out stuff like taubman approach ,or Chopin method on youtube , see which one works out for you .

The chopin method videos improved my scales by a LOT ,but he suggests some stuff that many people disagree with , idk , i injured my hand a long time ago , so badly that i couldnt practice at all for 6 months , then i found his channel , and he fixed my hand , so his vids might make your scales and arpeggios better, taubman is also cool , tho i havent looked into it that much so cant say much about it.

[fender]

Great advice from Helper and AI.  I concur.