Judge not lest ye be judged.

[BoliverAllmon]

First lets look at the entire passage not just the first verses.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

ok here goes.

The passage is telling us that we should be careful in our judging. We need to be fair assessers and not hypocrites. At the end of times during the Judgement Throne of Christ we will all be judged for our actions. God says that if we judge unfairly then we will also be judged unfairly. basically you reap what you sow Notice in verses 3-5 he is talking about judgement. He says how you can you help your brother out (which is what judgement is. confronting a brother in love and helping him overcome his shortcomings) if you yourself have so many problems. First fix yours then go help. Notice he doesn't say never help out. Only after you fix your own life. This idea is pointed out also in Galations 6:1 Galatians 6:1, 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

here again he is saying make sure your life is ok before going to your brother. that  you don't fall under temptation and sin with your brother.

read verse 6 again from Matthew. How will you decide who are dogs? Who are swine? The only way to know is to judge them according to their works. Matthew 12:33 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

people usually read the first part Judge not, but don't read the rest or don't let the rest sink in to what God is really saying.

1 Corinthians 6:1-201 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

if that doesn't show that we are suppose to judge then I don't know what does.

boliver

[Torp]

Personally, I think it shows exactly the opposite.  The only way you could be in a position to judge would be if you have no faults.  Since, according to the bible, the only being that doesn't have any faults is god, then the only being in a position to judge would be god.

Just my view.

Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

Personally, I think it shows exactly the opposite.  The only way you could be in a position to judge would be if you have no faults.  Since, according to the bible, the only being that doesn't have any faults is god, then the only being in a position to judge would be god.

Just my view.

Jef

you are thinking of judging as a bad thing. Yes, in society we have turned the word judging into a horrible word. it usually follows severe punishment or even death in some cases.

It doesn't mean that in this context. Have you ever seen a friend with a severe alcohol, drug or some other kind of problem. Did you go and talk to them and try to help them out? If you did then you judged according to the Bible. it isn't a way of punishing. it is confronting a brother in love and in helping him in his pitfalls and shortcomings. Ecclessiatstes tells us that it is better to have a friend. THat way when you fall you have someone to help you out. The BIble states that we are to esteem each other in love. That is to lift up or help each other out in love. How will you determine if your brother is in trouble? simple, by looking at his situation and determining/judging if he is ok or not.

Look at Solomon. God said that he would give him anything he wanted. He simply asked for wisdom so he could rule and judge his people in the best possible way. God saw favor in that request. Notice he liked that solomon wanted to judge in a Godly way.

Judging is a part of life. The problem becomes when you judge hypocritically (if I condemn you for smoking one joint when I am the biggest coke head you have ever seen).

boliver

[mikeyg]

I'll side with boliver on this one

[BoliverAllmon]

I'll side with boliver on this one

good choice JK

[mikeyg]

I know 

[BoliverAllmon]

I know 

LOL

[musik_man]

I think you're confusing judgement of a person and judgement of an action.  If you go back and look at my original statement, you'll see that it was in reply to mikeyg saying that the pope deserves more respect from us, because he's a "better" person.  That's an example of judging people, something that we shouldn't do.  If you read the gospels, you'll notice that the only people that Jesus verbally attacks are those who think they are better in God's eyes than other people, such as the Pharisees.  In reality we're all sinners, and, if not for Jesus's death, would be unable to face God.  We should love everyone, just like God loves all equally, regardless of sin.

Of course we should still identify sin, and realize that it prevents us from being close to God.  If your friend has a drinking problem, that is a sin, and you need to try and help them.  What I mean by not judging him, is that you shouldn't think he is less "righteous" or a "worse" Christian because of his problem.

[mikeyg]

Yea, but if you don't give a crap about the bible, then it is perfectly acceptable to judge people.  I can't understand why people bring up a BOOK in a conversation with people who don't believe in that book.  It's like me writing a novel about how I am the king of the world, and people doing what I tell them because of it.

And you judge people based off their actions, so if you can judge actions, then it logically follows that you can judge people.

[bernhard]

This thread reminded me of a story:

Jesus was strolling around with his disciples when he saw a furious crowd stoning a prostitute. He knew she was going to be stoned to death if he didn’t do something, so he bravely stepped in front of the crowd and tried to bring them to their senses:

“Brothers! Friends! This woman is a sinner no doubt. But so are all of you! What moral grounds can you possible have to stone her, when you yourselves may also have perhaps even worse sins? And who knows what circumstances led her to this life? So I tell you: if there is one amongst you without sin, let him cast the first stone!”

The crowd went quiet and embarrassed, as everyone examined his/her conscience and found that indeed they were all sinners with no right to condemn the prostitute.

It was then that a huge boulder flew through the air and smashed the prostitute’s head killing her instantly.

Jesus turned around angrily and said:

“MOM!!! Did I not ask you to stay home today?”

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mikeyg]

Nice!!! 

[BoliverAllmon]

Yea, but if you don't give a crap about the bible, then it is perfectly acceptable to judge people.  I can't understand why people bring up a BOOK in a conversation with people who don't believe in that book.  It's like me writing a novel about how I am the king of the world, and people doing what I tell them because of it.

And you judge people based off their actions, so if you can judge actions, then it logically follows that you can judge people.

if you don't give a crap about it then don't flood my thread.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think you're confusing judgement of a person and judgement of an action.  If you go back and look at my original statement, you'll see that it was in reply to mikeyg saying that the pope deserves more respect from us, because he's a "better" person.  That's an example of judging people, something that we shouldn't do.  If you read the gospels, you'll notice that the only people that Jesus verbally attacks are those who think they are better in God's eyes than other people, such as the Pharisees.  In reality we're all sinners, and, if not for Jesus's death, would be unable to face God.  We should love everyone, just like God loves all equally, regardless of sin.

Of course we should still identify sin, and realize that it prevents us from being close to God.  If your friend has a drinking problem, that is a sin, and you need to try and help them.  What I mean by not judging him, is that you shouldn't think he is less "righteous" or a "worse" Christian because of his problem.

when you think of someone as better than yourself. that isn't a bad thing. No one is requiring you respect the pope more than others. THe problem arises when you think that you are better than everyone else. That is what jesus condemned.

boliver

[musik_man]

when you think of someone as better than yourself. that isn't a bad thing. No one is requiring you respect the pope more than others. THe problem arises when you think that you are better than everyone else. That is what jesus condemned.

boliver

Do you consider it a sin to think that person X is a better person than person Y?  That's what Mikeyg was doing.

[BoliverAllmon]

You will know a tree by its fruits. I don't think it is wrong to say that person X is better than person Y. As long as you don't treat person Y in a negative way.

boliver

[Floristan]

My difficulty with the word "judgment" is that it implies a distinction between good and evil rather than good and bad.  This is just one example:

If I try to help a friend who is an alcoholic, it is not because I think he is behaving in an evil, sinful fashion but rather because I think he is destroying himself.  I don't judge him for that and say to myself, "He is living in sin, and I will help him out of his sinfulness."  I think, "He is destroying himself and needs to know help is available, that he doesn't have to live this way."  I think those two attitudes are very different and make all the difference when trying to help someone who is in mental, emotional, and spiritual distress.  Nothing drives an alcoholic away from treatment faster than judgment and characterization of the disease as "sin."   

[janice]

  Nothing drives an alcoholic away from treatment faster than judgment and characterization of the disease as "sin."   

Not necessarily.  I have a close friend who is an alcoholic.  She knows that her drinking not only harms her family, but she is also struggling, spiritually, right now.  She knows that her drinking is not only "not good" but that it is a sin.

[BoliverAllmon]

My difficulty with the word "judgment" is that it implies a distinction between good and evil rather than good and bad.  This is just one example:

If I try to help a friend who is an alcoholic, it is not because I think he is behaving in an evil, sinful fashion but rather because I think he is destroying himself.  I don't judge him for that and say to myself, "He is living in sin, and I will help him out of his sinfulness."  I think, "He is destroying himself and needs to know help is available, that he doesn't have to live this way."  I think those two attitudes are very different and make all the difference when trying to help someone who is in mental, emotional, and spiritual distress.  Nothing drives an alcoholic away from treatment faster than judgment and characterization of the disease as "sin."   

tell that to Jonathan Edwards

[Floristan]

tell that to Jonathan Edwards

A waste of a brilliant mind, IMO, but that's another thread!

[BoliverAllmon]

A waste of a brilliant mind, IMO, but that's another thread!

whatever

[musik_man]

You will know a tree by its fruits. I don't think it is wrong to say that person X is better than person Y. As long as you don't treat person Y in a negative way.

boliver

So were the Pharisees better than the prostitutes and tax collectors that Jesus ate with?

[BoliverAllmon]

So were the Pharisees better than the prostitutes and tax collectors that Jesus ate with?

Jesus said that a doctor didn't need to be with the well, but with the sick. When did He say this? Why it was when the Pharisees asked why was he eating with those sinners.

You logic is telling me that Billy Graham is just as bad as all those crazed terrorists that torture and mutilate people.

HMMMMMM......

[BoliverAllmon]

Also notice how Jesus judged the sinners. He looked upon them. Realized their faults. Had compassion on them, and set out to help them. He didn't treat them like dirt. I am not advocating self-righteous haughtiness.

boliver

[musik_man]

Jesus said that a doctor didn't need to be with the well, but with the sick. When did He say this? Why it was when the Pharisees asked why was he eating with those sinners.

You logic is telling me that Billy Graham is just as bad as all those crazed terrorists that torture and mutilate people.

HMMMMMM......

You're confusing actions with a person again.  Billy Graham's actions are not bad like those of terrorists.  In spite of this, God loves each one of those terrorists just as much as he loves Billy Graham.  If God loves them, I don't see why I shouldn't.

You deflected my question to a degree.  I know what Jesus said.  I want to know what you think.  Do you think that the Pharisees were better?

Also notice how Jesus judged the sinners. He looked upon them. Realized their faults. Had compassion on them, and set out to help them. He didn't treat them like dirt. I am not advocating self-righteous haughtiness.

boliver

We're all sinners.  Does commiting sins at a lower frequency make you a better person?

[pianonut]

i think the deepest thing we struggle with sometimes is I cor. 10:21 we "cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons:  you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."  There are so many distractions, temptations, etc. and the only way to deal with it all is to be constantly in a mode of some kind of prayer.  we worry a lot about terrorism that we can see, but what about terrorism that we can't see. the terrorism that hits us with a wrong thought (which left unchecked takes us places that it did Cain - 'why is your countenance fallen?). it seems right at certain times to 'fit in' but as christians we will never 'fit in' so we may as well get used to it.  that includes our speech, manner of being, and even though we may dress in some fashion similar to our friends - the ones closest to us see that our dress does not define us.  Christ wore quality clothing, but he did not go around modeling them.  (ok hahah)  nothing against modeling, it's just that i am realizing that whether we are men or women our example is faith.  some of the things we do for others are hidden (from people who are judging us now).  they may see our outwardness, but God sees our inward heart.  He knows. if we are right with Him, then whether we make a mistake or not in our 'judging', He will grant us patience and love instead of harshness (as Boliverallimon, Janice, Bernhard and others are saying) and no real 'fear.'  we only fear when we are dealing man to man (women, too).  we fear what people will say, what our image is, etc.

[BoliverAllmon]

You're confusing actions with a person again.  Billy Graham's actions are not bad like those of terrorists.  In spite of this, God loves each one of those terrorists just as much as he loves Billy Graham.  If God loves them, I don't see why I shouldn't.

You deflected my question to a degree.  I know what Jesus said.  I want to know what you think.  Do you think that the Pharisees were better?

We're all sinners.  Does commiting sins at a lower frequency make you a better person?

I don't see a difference between the actions and a  person. Look at Scripture out of the heart is what the mouth speaks. you will know a tree by its fruits. Faith without works is dead. and many others point to actions.

I personally think the Pharisees were worse. They were self-righteous and ignorant of all truth. Most are burning in Hell now, whereas many "sinners" aren't.

I realize that we have all committed sins. We are a all a bunch of wretches. The only way to Heaven is through grace. The question (in my  opinion) is not whether "I" am a better person than someone else, but instead if I look up to someone whom I feel is better than I. Someone I aspire to be like. I judge the actions of terrorists and have no respect. I do judge the actions of Billy Graham and have great respect and hope to be like him someday.

Paul himself said to be like him, because he is like Christ.

boliver

[pianonut]

i agree about actions.  sometimes we think we are secure, and then we fail at something and realize we're just like everyone else.  that is why we have to judge sparingly (telling people about their sins) and focus more on our own.  i agree totally about striving for the example of the disciples and of Christ.  the disciples give us hope.  there is every kind of personality.  matthew: the tax collector (that's one nobody likes - but necessary to know how to handle money), thomas:  the doubter,  many women (though not mentioned as one of the twelve disciples-still followers) who had various problems and afflictions, it didn't seem to matter to Christ what they were before they knew him, but he always said 'go and sin no more.'  don't just live happily under grace.  so...if we at least strive to listen to God's spirit - which speaks to all of us as to what is right and wrong (especially if you read the Bible) then there is no fear of judgement if you make one mistake among many right decisions.  it's just the returning to sins that were forgiven over and over - and no real progress.  to make progress you have to decide firmly (like a judge with a gavel) i'm not participating in that, or thinking that, or whatever!  This is easier the more you do it- especially if you replace the action or thought with something good. 

[musik_man]

I personally think the Pharisees were worse. They were self-righteous and ignorant of all truth. Most are burning in Hell now, whereas many "sinners" aren't.

boliver

So the Pharisees are worse than the prostitutes/tax collectors because of their motivations not their actions.  Do you feel safe judging people's motivations?  I certainly don't.

[BoliverAllmon]

So the Pharisees are worse than the prostitutes/tax collectors because of their motivations not their actions.  Do you feel safe judging people's motivations?  I certainly don't.

Many sinners turned and asked for forgiveness, The pharisees rejected Christ.

[musik_man]

Many sinners turned and asked for forgiveness, The pharisees rejected Christ.

Are you saying that people who accept Christ are better than other people?

[pianonut]

what can you lose if you accept Christ?  what can you gain in this life or the next if you don't?  (you asked  )  just because you decide to become a christian doesn't mean that you give up thinking.  as bolliver says, 'faith without works is dead.'  so, we have to conciously (not unconcious rituals performed over and over) choose life.  there is no science that can keep people from dying.  so we know that someday we will also die.  some are content to leave it at that.  but, if they read the bible they will see there is a ressurrection of the dead.  (the dead in Christ will rise first - and then all those who are alive in Christ at the time of his coming will also be 'transformed' and risen).  then, there is spoken of a millenium (1000 years) where all those who did not know Christ will come to know him.  and, if i understand correctly, a third ressurrection where all those who are anti-christ will experience judgement, and a 'second death.'  this second death is spoken of as something dreadful (not torture) but a knowledge of what they missed out (by not taking a very small risk, when other risks in their life may be somewhat larger).  basically, it is the opportunity to 'rule' with Christ in his kingdom.  He speaks of some being in charge of 1 city, some more, according to how they learned to govern themselves in this life.  whatever we are left in charge of (even if it is as small as our own life - or as large as a family, extended family - on up)  we are told to take care of and make larger (i suppose he means teach about God).  then God has many children (his investment grown).

[BoliverAllmon]

Are you saying that people who accept Christ are better than other people?

Their eternity will be better yes.

[pianowelsh]

Hi Boliver - i think when God says about those who judged unfairly  he doesnt quite mean that he will judge them unfairly - in fact he will judge them fairly and they reap the consequences of their sin. Its important because God always judges fairly without exception. He is the only one capable of judging completely fairly as he knows all things and is without sin he aslo has creators rights over the whole of creation. Now when it comes to us judging its not quite so simple. Why ? because it is possible for us to misunderstand - to interpret from what we see and miss what lies beneath and sometimes regrettably to just judge unfairly because it suits us to do so (because humans by nature have selfish and self presavatory streak) - i am not saying that it is acceptable for us to do this - but neverthless it happens! Therefore  we need discernement. If someone told you go and shoot your teacher for example you would automatically make a judgement based on your moral code and hopefully would decide against it. As Christians we need to make sure that the way we live aligns with Gods will therefore you will have to make judgements based on Gods word this is right and this is wrong etc. Now that is normal and the bible is not speaking about people making these kinds of judgements (NB as Christian there isn an arrogance in saying no i dont do that or that was wrong because we do so by the Grace of God - there but for Christ go I - in essence, slandering people wouldnt be part of a christian remit but being a court judge certainly could be). What we dont have right to do is judge peoples eternity, that is God alones judgement because he can see the heart. His gift of salvation is free and available to all who believe on his son Jesus Christ and trust in him. Therefore we cannot shirk the responsibility to 'preach the gospel to every living creature' and in so doing exersise God like judgement (ill try and save this one but not this one) - God saves not men and women our responsibility is just to tell people about the best gift EVER