Piano Forum

Topic: ears, eyes, or both?  (Read 1608 times)

Offline tds

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2941
ears, eyes, or both?
on: April 09, 2005, 07:46:00 PM
when remembering/playing  piano pieces, do you depend on?:

1. mainly your ears
2. mainly your eyes ( including photographic memory )
3. somehow more ears than eyes
4. somehow more eyes than ears
5. both equally

for the sake of getting shorter answers, let us not include "muscle memory", which obviously can give alot of benefit to remembering piano works. best, tds





dignity, love and joy.

outsyde yn

  • Guest
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #1 on: April 09, 2005, 07:51:17 PM
I don't know which I use more, probably eyes, but my friend's teacher always says they should get treated like muscles and need to get worked out regularly.  SO mabye it is muscle memeory afterall.  My friend she has like a photographic memory and says it doesn't do every trick she needs it to so she has to work at her ears also.  She's so good though maybe photographic memory is a really big advantage, maybe not though.

bye,
Clair

Offline pianomann1984

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #2 on: April 09, 2005, 09:28:54 PM
I dunno about you guys but I tend to use my brain!  It's even possible to use more unorthadox things like 'phantom/shadow' fingering to give yourself clues when playing passages, but in my expreience: eyes are for studying the piece in the first place and ears are for listening to the sound you're making as you do it.  When I was younger I would learn pieces by ear, but soon found that this was detremental to my reading.  Disciplined, detailed study of a work is the only way to learn music and end up with a 100% sense of confidence in the result.
"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline pseudopianist

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 607
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #3 on: April 09, 2005, 09:53:47 PM
I first of all learn it in my finger memory and then do a chord analys and try to start of playing the piece from anywhere, this will help my memorie to stay fresh. I also rarely need to memorize the melodie hand is it is a one-note melody because I have a good relative pitch.

Bach is IMPOSSIBLE to learn by memory. HOW DO YOU DO IT? :P
Whisky and Messiaen

Offline pianomann1984

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #4 on: April 09, 2005, 10:26:28 PM
I do have a method for Bach, but it's slow and tiresome (works though!): -

1.  Take the piece and divide it into about 10, roughly even sections that can be your designated starting points (depending on the size of the piece you may have more, but the important thing is that the sections should feel managable in size).

2.  Practice each section out of context and try to memorise it.  It's best to work backwards from the last section, putting the sections together as you go.

3.  Finally, when you think you have the whole lot learned and put back together, choose starting points at random (Draw cards from a hat or something...be inventive  ;D) and try to run from that point to the end from memory, saving the starting point at the beginning till last.  When you can go from every starting point to the ened from memory, you can truly say that you know it, and will most likely never forget it again!!!

Enjoy! :)

"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline tds

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2941
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #5 on: April 10, 2005, 01:21:31 AM
I dunno about you guys but I tend to use my brain!  It's even possible to use more unorthadox things like 'phantom/shadow' fingering to give yourself clues when playing passages, but in my expreience: eyes are for studying the piece in the first place and ears are for listening to the sound you're making as you do it.  When I was younger I would learn pieces by ear, but soon found that this was detremental to my reading.  Disciplined, detailed study of a work is the only way to learn music and end up with a 100% sense of confidence in the result.

your tendency to use your brain is much applauded! however, ain't it what it's supposed to be: one uses one's brain while playing/remembering anything as complex as a classical piano works ( jazz and other music genres, too, need brain! ). as we know, brain itself has little-to-no purpose in music, without our sensory systems. (inner) ear, (inner) eyes and kinesthatic ability are essential in general music making, AND they deserve many chapters onto themselves. in other words, there is always rooms in this regard that we can legitimately attempt to talk in a more specific manner, and to break things down ( as far as the big pictures avails ). afterall,  it is for the goodness/expansion of our knowledge and pedagogical tools.
dignity, love and joy.

Offline pianomann1984

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #6 on: April 10, 2005, 11:13:02 AM
as we know, brain itself has little-to-no purpose in music, without our sensory systems. (inner) ear, (inner) eyes and kinesthatic ability are essential in general music making, AND they deserve many chapters onto themselves.

Are you/were you a student of the Kodaly method?  I thought the original question was only directed at the methods of memorising works.  I am in my second year at music college,  studying the Kodaly method as a supplement to my studies, so am hardly proficient in the concept of inner hearing, but it has made an enormous difference in the way that I am playing now.  However, I think there is a distinct difference in the purely academic study of notes for memory, and the musical interpretation and techniques of inner hearing/eyes that this leads to, that at my stage in development are aids to studying.  The concept of inner hearing/seeing, unfortunately was never taught to me from the beginning, and so it is not an integral part of my psyche, and so it can never possibly be the sole way in which I can study - thus I have to use my brain more.  But I dont believe that this is in any way detramental to my playing - it simply means that I have to do things in a slightly different way.
"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline tds

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2941
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #7 on: April 10, 2005, 12:27:56 PM
Are you/were you a student of the Kodaly method?  I thought the original question was only directed at the methods of memorising works.  I am in my second year at music college,  studying the Kodaly method as a supplement to my studies, so am hardly proficient in the concept of inner hearing, but it has made an enormous difference in the way that I am playing now.  However, I think there is a distinct difference in the purely academic study of notes for memory, and the musical interpretation and techniques of inner hearing/eyes that this leads to, that at my stage in development are aids to studying.  The concept of inner hearing/seeing, unfortunately was never taught to me from the beginning, and so it is not an integral part of my psyche, and so it can never possibly be the sole way in which I can study - thus I have to use my brain more.  But I dont believe that this is in any way detramental to my playing - it simply means that I have to do things in a slightly different way.

to make it clear, i was not hitting merely on the method of memorizing works. as the title says, its both remembering and playing. no, i am/was not a student of the kodaly method.
dignity, love and joy.

Offline pianomann1984

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #8 on: April 10, 2005, 12:55:13 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood...I did not realise your question was geared at playing as well as at lremembering.  In which case, I would say that looking at the detail within a score is the best way to learn it, but I always see playing as more a psychological experience than a physical one.  It is the way in which we think about our playing that governs the way that we actually play.  Afterall, an audience does not simply come to a performance to see what we physically do - they come to to hear what it sounds like.  Thus I would perhaps say that I use my eyes and ears equally - I have to because they both govern very different parts of my playing.  If this sounds waffly, please understand that I am finding this conversation very interesting because I have never had to think about my playing from this viewpoint.  I am interestd to hear where you got the concept of inner hearing/eyes from, as I have only heard it referred to with respect to Kodaly.
"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline tds

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2941
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #9 on: April 10, 2005, 01:35:34 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood...I did not realise your question was geared at playing as well as at lremembering.  In which case, I would say that looking at the detail within a score is the best way to learn it, but I always see playing as more a psychological experience than a physical one.  It is the way in which we think about our playing that governs the way that we actually play.  Afterall, an audience does not simply come to a performance to see what we physically do - they come to to hear what it sounds like.  Thus I would perhaps say that I use my eyes and ears equally - I have to because they both govern very different parts of my playing.  If this sounds waffly, please understand that I am finding this conversation very interesting because I have never had to think about my playing from this viewpoint.  I am interestd to hear where you got the concept of inner hearing/eyes from, as I have only heard it referred to with respect to Kodaly.

your message does not sound waffly at all. i am also interested to hear more from other folks. inner hearing exists long before kodaly. in fact, we, all human beings, have the so-called inner ears. i am sure you've heard tunes in your head before, and if not many times. best, tds
dignity, love and joy.

Offline pseudopianist

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 607
Re: ears, eyes, or both?
Reply #10 on: April 10, 2005, 06:46:02 PM
I do have a method for Bach, but it's slow and tiresome (works though!): -

1.  Take the piece and divide it into about 10, roughly even sections that can be your designated starting points (depending on the size of the piece you may have more, but the important thing is that the sections should feel managable in size).

2.  Practice each section out of context and try to memorise it.  It's best to work backwards from the last section, putting the sections together as you go.

3.  Finally, when you think you have the whole lot learned and put back together, choose starting points at random (Draw cards from a hat or something...be inventive  ;D) and try to run from that point to the end from memory, saving the starting point at the beginning till last.  When you can go from every starting point to the ened from memory, you can truly say that you know it, and will most likely never forget it again!!!

Enjoy! :)



This is worth a shoot *runs to the piano*
Whisky and Messiaen
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert