Jealousy

[allchopin]

How do you overcome this 'deadly sin' towards what other peers have gotten or accomplished (I'll keep it hypothetical)?  Lately I've been finding myself really envious and it almost makes me sick - I know I shouldn't be but I can't help it.  What is a good way to overcome this?

[BoliverAllmon]

practice harder and outdo everyone else?

[Tash]

you know it's funny i was actually thinking exactly the same thing about myself today. i dunno maybe it's just being at uni and everyone's doing the same thing but i have this great determination to outdo everyone else and get really annoyed when i produce something crappy, and as a result i really can't stand painting anymore and so whilst everyone else happily producing loads of paintings i'm getting irritated by this. why? i don't know but like you allchopin i'm thinking this is really not good and is getting me nowhere. maybe we just have to learn to accept what we've got? it's hard, i'm not sure how to get rid of it..well i'm helpful aren't i!

[tds]

i believe everyone is different, which makes music/art world unique. self acceptance is crucial for healthy musical growth.  I would recommend a book called The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. it's literally the most extraordinary book i have ever read ( besides the Bible ). all the very best, tds

[Dazzer]

i feel your pain.

for me, i always set my standards to whatever everyone else has accomplished.

in other words... i'll perpetually never reach my standards...

which sucks, if i'm listening to martha's recordings or richter's recordings... or say the liszt piano competition participants.

its a competitive world... lots of politics too.

[pianonut]

if you look at life from both sides...you start understanding what you're here for.  just to be the best you can be.

today, i was bicycling, and the thought crossed my mind as i passed a perfectly dressed bycyclist (looked like he was supposed to be a racer) in my simple outfit and (because one of my bicycle shoes accidently fell in the recycling bin in the garage) my plain tennis shoes - i thought 'jersey's don't matter.'  well, it's like that with piano. you don't have to have the best of everything.  you just have to work hard.  say, if someone else has the best teacher (though i think i do), the best repertoire, the best piano, the best audiences -- you can pass them up sometimes because they turn whimpy.  they have to be pampered and have everything perfect.

also, some people who seem to have it all, actually may have had a rough life or be in the middle of something that you don't see and maybe deserve to be where they're at.  i have been surprised at some stories of people who succeeded at certain things (like lance armstrong) despite cancer, etc.

also, my mind is on bicycling right now,  i was thinking today that how nice it would be if lower income children could own both instruments and bicycles.  it would give them something to do with their time.  i suppose when one asserts their knowledge, it should be in what they give back to the community and not what they take.  it puts in perspective those that are somewhat 'pointillistic' toward a personal goal, and those who are 'encompassing' and include others in their personal goals (bringing them along).  then they forget who's on top because they're having fun and not necessarily competing with anyone.

[allchopin]

I also have always aimed for what others better than me have done, no matter how far-reaching the standard may be, as a route of constant improvement.  But is this typically a good idea?  Does it lead to hyper-pessimism (which I tend to thrive on  )?

I agree that harder work will help, but what is hard work without the results at the end?  And what if one of your peers who has done roughly equal work has come out with a lot more? - it's healthy to accept it but almost impossible to just ignore...  Now I am feeling that what I have is never good enough until I reach equal merit with this other person  .  I also am not referring specifically to piano playing, but it all applies there as well.  How do you prevent the feeling that you have not done enough to deserve the rewards of your efforts (or for that matter, find out how to optimize your award-reaping for efforts you have acheived)?

[pocorina]

I know just how you feel. There is somebody who has everything I could ever want. I hate them with EVERY fibre of my being, but somehow there is still some more left in me to love them with all my heart.

That makes it so much harder to tear grab victory from under their nose. It kills me and breaks my heart, but i get some kind of sick triumph at the same time.

[pianomann1984]

i have this great determination to outdo everyone else and get really annoyed when i produce something crappy,

Have you maybe considered that the reason you produce something crappy may be because you are distracted by your jealousy towards your peers?  Beware the deadly sin!!!  I don't get jealous, but maybe thats because I regurarly try to convince my self that I am the best! Beware the 2nd deadly sin - Pride!!!  Actually I have to say actually I'm rarely that dogged in my studies, but I am so determined to better myself all the time that I don't have time for envy.

[keys]

doesn't jealousy among pianists seem sort of silly? We often compete, but at the same time we're the ones who go the concerts of whoever wins. I'm really ambitious, but not too competitive. I'm supportive of my competitors and they are supportive of me. The music world has a lot of strong personalities and big egos, conflicts can be hard to avoid but I do my best. It seems like an over-crowded field, but maybe we're the ones who make the field so small?

[donjuan]

I cant help but feel the green eyed monster sometimes.

Last night I played at my teacher's concert and I just felt so sick whenever I watched these 9 year old asian girls with flawless technique, playing with perfect touch and tone.  And then I come up,--> 6 years older than the 2nd oldest student in the room and stumble through my performance with missed notes, wrong notes, awkward sound, backtracks, stoppages, and abraisive touch.  When I stand up after the final chord, I see people clapping their callous hands and my teacher, crossing his arms and looking towards the floor as if to avoid seeing me.

and then the 6 year old comes up to the bench and my teacher looks up and sets his hands down comfortably on his lap with anticipation.

  I ....I just feel so useless at these times and wonder why I chose to play piano in the first place.  I could have had an interest in cars, but noooo I just had to choose the hobby that would make me so miserable.
donjuan  

[pianonut]

wondering about what the recommended book 'the Artists Way' suggests.  i wonder if some suggestions would be to 'get into your music.'  the more you question how and why, the more you'll probably find huge discrepancies in what you thought someone else was doing vs. what they actually do.  some people can stay up all night (i can't).  some people say 'oh, i only practice a few hours'  when maybe the month before it was 12-18 hours from 6 pm to 6 am.  i don't know.  all i know is that my teacher can't be this good and practice for what would be the remaining hours of a normal day (after teaching).  i am convinced he is an alien-pianoplaying-robot.  he takes a pill that gives him 8 hours of normal sleep at 6 am and starts the day again.  how can a normal person memorize whole recitals in a matter of weeks or possibly one month.  it's just not possible for the normal person.

perhaps dispositions help.  some people may be genetically predisposed to sleep deprivation and lots of finger action.  and, adapt quickly to learning everything all at once.  i tend to learn the notes, then dynamics, then correct tempos, etc.  my teacher on the other hand,  learns everything at once (i've noticed) and it is also how he teaches.  it maximizes your time, but puts a huge load on your brain. my brain has not been taxed this much since tax-time (which is coming up soon, isn't it?)

anyway, for comfort, take a poor pianist who never gets audience adulation because he/she just doesn't have any confidence in himself/herself.  the shoulders are slumped, the eyes roll back (with no audible effect on the music), and memory lapses are freqent.  is this person doomed to piano -hell forever?  probably.  do they give up?  no, you find them everywhere in almost every piano practice room heatily practicing away on their music.  will they ever be a concert pianist?  that is my question.  is it possible for the 'average pianist' to become a super human piano playing robot?  with lots of practice, i believe so.  will they have as much feeling.  probably not.  they may lose all their feelings, in fact.  they may become so robotic that they emit musical sounds to match their notes in exchange for their normal language.  soon, their diet may consist only of things that start with the letter 'p.'  (pie, pancakes, peanut butter sandwichs). ok.  i'm tired tonight, and waiting for the three year old to go to sleep.

[lostinidlewonder]

I dont think there should ever be jealousy for another musician simply because if you asked them to recreate the way you play, they could never do it. How you play is unique, your own (unless you have been brainwashed by a controlling satanitc teacher who forces you to play 100% in their way).

The level of your ability shouldn't be measured totally by technical ability, but of course also musical quality/expression. Accuracy and dexterity is like dessert, if it is bad the whole thing tastes a little off in the end, but if it is perfect then it is very sweet tasting, but it would be useless to have such a fine dessert if there was nothing but dessert. It is much more important to get the main meal (the expression and musical ideas) perfected rather than getting upset over acrobatics at the keys. These things unavoidably improve with time, but musical expression is from within, much harder to develop, it grows as you experience more and more life musically and personally.

If you find that you cannot move your fingers fast enough or be accurate enough for this hard piece or that, then put it aside, dont listen to others play that and then sit infront of your 88 keys bashing them with fists and shouting WHY CANT I!

In fact I think that it is a big trap in this world to ever look at someone else and let their "superiority" over you make you feel down. Instead stand on the shoulders of giants! Learn from them, absorb all you can, then intergrate it into your musical thinking. I surely have stole and absored so much from listening and talking with those so much greater than I am. Even ideas on the net we should constantly steal and try to use for our own, that is what we are all here for! 

[Bacfokievrahms]

I find that my own jealousy comes from fear of being unappreciated. And with specificity to myself, I suppose appreciation is my acceptable and more manageable substitute for love.

When I feel jealous I try to comfort the part of me that's afraid and I usually feel instant results.

[apion]

all i know is that my teacher can't be this good and practice for what would be the remaining hours of a normal day (after teaching).  i am convinced he is an alien-pianoplaying-robot.  he takes a pill that gives him 8 hours of normal sleep at 6 am and starts the day again.  how can a normal person memorize whole recitals in a matter of weeks or possibly one month.  it's just not possible for the normal person.

LOL    (I suspect that most piano teachers are alien!)

[pocorina]

Most pianists seem to have one main rival who they are always mindful of whilst learning things (i.e: must get this piece perfect because i know how well <insert name here> plays it). Such pianists often see this rival as just a body/being/thing just put there to challenge them. this can be good. the rival often seems inhuman due to their astonishing ability.

Take another look at yourself. In my experience, you and the rival are probably of the same ability. You are both widly jealous of each other and so are bettering yourselves all the time, with eyes only on each other and trying to outdo them in learning the next piece. I am in exactly this situation, and you wouldn't believe the amount of bitching/backstabbing/jealoussness/competitiveness this creates between us.

However recently we got together and auditioned with piano duets (we won). So you can see how this rivalry can be put to good use. Why struggle against each other so long when you can put your talent together and DOUBLE your amazingness?!!

[Dazzer]

Dazzer vs the world.

nuff said.

[tds]

wondering about what the recommended book 'the Artists Way' suggests.  

The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron deals mostly with our psyche in  most consistent, constructive and healthy way. It deals and cleans up such inner "dirts" as jealousy, helplessness, lack of discipline/direction, confusion, frustration, etc. A spiritual book, it teaches us an easy-to-do, simple, yet surprisingly wonderful way to nurture our talents. Not only it refreshes and revitalizes our mind and spirit, her ideas guide us onto a smoother way to live as a creative artist/musician. Cameron equips us with ways to stay positive and be free from the so-called "artist's blocks". A true masterpiece and that of divine inspiration, The Artist's Way is yet easy and gentle to read, as it is also systematic and confidently contructive. This book was written with utmost understanding and loving care, in which case one can easily trace the inspiration she must have received while writing it. Inspiration from "The Above". Priceless, priceless!! A must of all artists, musician and everyone. Warmest, tds

[earthward]

  I ....I just feel so useless at these times and wonder why I chose to play piano in the first place.  I could have had an interest in cars, but noooo I just had to choose the hobby that would make me so miserable.
donjuan 

*Hugs* Cars  ... such a silly hobby... playing piano is a way more interesting and worthwhile! And just think that everytime you perform you learn something and you can apply that to the next performance.  In the long run all that experience adds up so it's worth sticking with it. 

[tds]

in essence, jealousy is fear not to be loved. it is not a positive trait. try to work harder and outdo everyone else wil not fix the problem, nor will the problem go away. best, tds

[ted]

My old piano teacher used to tell me, "That's something you'll have to be very careful about, Ted - jealousy."

For years I wondered what on earth he meant - envy, as far as I can tell, has always been unknown to me (sloth is a very good friend but we shan't go into that just now). It wasn't until I came upon others who envied me musically (why I don't know, I'm certainly nothing to write home to Mum about) that I realised he had meant his remark the other way around !

Yes, envy in the arts, or anywhere come to think of it, is a thoroughly destructive thing but, as I don't think I've ever felt this sensation, I wouldn't have the least idea about how to get rid of it. Tell me how to get rid of sloth, provided it doesn't involve too much actual work.

[Bacfokievrahms]

I actually thought that I'd never felt jealousy either but apparently I had, I just never knew what jealousy was.  It's attention-based inferiority.

Sloth is also another kind of fear but it's a fear that you'll be deprived of what you want, if you meant the procrastination kind of sloth. Passivity sloth is probably of fear that you'll upset others or ruin your own sense of harmony.

[pianonut]

the book sounds good, tds.  i'll look for it.

what does it mean when a teacher (thankfully not my piano teacher) tells you that you do not think linearly?  i already know that my mind tends to wander.  is this really bad.  or just minorly bad.  or terrible. or what?  here i am in grad school and finding out my mind isn't as disciplined as i thought it was. 

how does one learn to think linearly?  is it possible to reroute your brain?  i was trying to do this with my practice (cramming more thoughts into it while playing, than just the regular 'duh').  with all this new knowledge my brain actually hurts sometimes.  don't teachers care we are trying.  when is it 'good enough?' when we are lying on the floor moaning because our head hurts.  ok.  i'm taking this too far, since i am really not totally dumb either.  it's just that i've never been good at things like chess or mapping my music yet.  it's coming.  but, not there yet.  why can't i know what chord should be next?

[pianonut]

ok. what this comment was directed at was a research paper.  so, i looked up linear thinking.  here's what i found:

for lessons:
there would be lessons on trying to describe roses, mid-summer evenings, and your loved ones without using metaphors , allusions, or poetic license.  lecturers would include journalists who write for newspapers using restricted vocabulary.  lessons on purchasing abstract art and hailing london cabbies.

other lessons:
how not to see faces on mars, inkblots, and tortillas
how to recognize the ordinary in the extraordinary
using the words if, then, else, and you

lesson for today:
you wouldn't want your dentist to think 'outside the box.'

[allchopin]

in essence, jealousy is fear not to be loved. it is not a positive trait. try to work harder and outdo everyone else wil not fix the problem, nor will the problem go away. best, tds

I had, I just never knew what jealousy was.  It's attention-based inferiority.

This is not jealousy, but a whole different problem, probably best categorized under social acceptance rather than envy of peers.

Let us define envy: "A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another."  (dictionary.com)

This is what I am feeling, not because I don't work hard enough but because the other person doesn't seem to deserve what they got from how hard I think they worked for it.  I know that this is a rampant problem among businesspeople in the world (and just about anyone with money) but there has to be a solution to overcome this.  Pianonut, I am not a particularly spiritual person so I don't think I'm the right audience for the book you suggest, but could you list some specific methods Cameron describes for this problem?  Im still interested in what people have to say about how they deal with this moral issue.

[tds]

how does one learn to think linearly? 

having a problem with thinking linearly is a common issue amongst pianists. Yet, the good news is that this so-called linear thinking can readily be learnt by anyone and everyone. do the following tips and it's guaranteed that you will be better after shortly:

1. forget that piano music has to be played on the piano.
2. pick a slower, simpler piece, like the slow/minuet movement in a sonata.
3. highlight the primary melodic line throughout the piece
4. learn to sing it in the octaves that suit your voice range
5. sing it continously, i.e without stopping.
6. be able to conduct smoothly while singing the line. observe the dynamic markings and phrasing. step 1-6 takes time (if this is the first time you are doing this kind of excercise, then practice step 5-6 for no less than 2 days before playing the piano).

note: piano can ONLY be used for pitch checking/asssistance at these steps.

7. you are very comfortable with step 5 and 6, so it is now time to get back to your instrument.
8. play the piece AND use voicing technique ( as the main melodic line is most important in this excercise, you must sing it out, and for contrast, play all the rest super softly, pp ) IMPORTANT: this linear exercise focuses on the FLUENCY of your singing with the piano. wrong notes should not interrupt your rhythm. always confirm what you play with the melodic line you hear in your head.
9. now believe it or not you are a better musician by a couple of miles. congratulate yourself!

all the best, tds

[pianonut]

i glommed onto consistency.  that is probably the missing-link between the amazing pianists and the average pianists.  sometimes we allow other things to rearrange our priorities instead of saying 'this time is set aside for piano.'  it's probably easier for some than others, and yes, money helps (but it's not everything).  what people don't see is that despite some unjust business people, most people (i think) who are successful at business, music, anything ARE consistent.  they follow through on details and people start valuing their opinions and advice because they are usually 'on target.'  i've noticed they are not easily distracted from goals, either, and sometimes seem blunt.  as lostinidlewonder said- there's no reason to be jealous of someone else if you are busy doing what you were meant to do.  when you don't compare, but just seek to improve yourself at your own pace - then it doesn't matter if someone does it better (since you can learn from that person).

personally, i put all my eggs into one basket with piano (and still do most of the time), but there are other successes.  probably at the end of my life piano will be #3 and God and family #1 and #2 (of what i wish i had consistently wanted success in).  if you have a family it's a little bit different because you have a mix of family goals which don't always jive with personal goals.  morning practice is good for me because of less distraction.  i suppose the practice keyboards are the thing for late night practice.

[pianonut]

good ideas tds.  now, can you help me with my 5000 word research paper?  most of it is done, but it's in the wrong order and much of the information i find is now irrelevant (some primary sources were off the internet - ok that was dumb).  i couldn't help getting excited if margaret mikulska said that she thought mozart DID write cadenzas for all his piano concertos, but that they were not all recovered since half the estate went one direction and most of the other half to the Andre family (and some were thought to be destroyed in WWI).  apparrently the K466 had mention at one time of accompanying folio with two cadenzas (that mozart had written).  if it is true, which i think i have finally proved with an author with the last name of wolf, i will be a legendary researcher (having only used one source for that discovery) and hailed as captain of mozart cadenza research at wcu. hahahah

the other problem is that in my paper i have many many items to address (problems).  instead of narrowing down everything to the 18th century and performance details only in that time frame - i randomly selected cadenzas all over the place that were written for Mozart as well.  I spent hours (wasted now) listening to various cadenzas that were written for mozart and can't really tell you anything more than I LIKED Murray Perahia's and didn't like the Beethoven, Ashkenazy, and Badura-Skoda (Alfred Brendel) cadenzas as well.  They had too many themes, sometimes modulated (no-no in mozart) and were not as sweet and short. 

i am now insane.  just kidding.  after ALL THAT WORK.  I guess i learned not to wander so much, but really, why does my mind wander so much.  i got into tempos, and dynamics and the history of Schroter.  Actually, that might come in handy.  Schroter wrote some concertos that mozart liked, so mozart wrote a cadenza or two for Schroter. mozart also wrote many cadenzas that are listed in Kochel to his piano concertos (can use that).  AND, mozart wrote how NOT to write a cadenza (in 'the musical joke' concerto for violin)  it is said that he thought his pupils sussmayr and hummel were 'insipid.'  the music written for them is second rate, superficial, and subbornly and enduringly devoid of any significant idea (motives) in support of a thesis.

mozart intentionally violates elementary laws of composition in this piece (such as consecutive fifths and octaves).  he also doubles parts without accounting for texture, to create an overly intrusive accompaniment in some sections.  the composer cannot come to the cadence he wants.  the various instruments are in different keys (but ultimately come together to make chords in Eb major.   

[tds]

do you think creating a new topic about your monogram would also be useful? best, tds