Speed and muscle tension

[Daniel_piano]

I was watching Barbara Lister Sink video and she made clear that the only obstacle to speed is accumulation of muscle tension as the piece proceeds and therefore the way to achieve speed is to play without accumulating any muscle tension.

It does make sense and she suggests to play very small fractions (1/3 of a bar) up to speed and then returning the hands on the lap, practicing the next small fraction mentally.

This seems to work in that there's no muscle tension accumulation as after each segment is played the whole arms are relaxed.
The problem is when all the mastered segments must be joined together and there are not anymore pauses between each segment and as the middle of the piece is approached much muscle tension is accumulated.

The concept is really easy to understand the problem is putting it into practice.
Once we realize that the secret to speed and evenness of sounds and prevention of injuries is to never accumulate muscle tension, what do you think are the best ways, tricks, tips and methods to use to prevent the accumulation of muscle tension?

Dany

[xvimbi]

The solution, I think, starts with paying utmost attention to any tension that occurs and/or builds up and to be able to tell in the first place that some muscle is tense. This is easier said than done. Experienced people can detect tension in other people by touching or even simply by looking. Tension in muscles that do not extend to the surface is not, or not as easily, detectable.

The second step is not accepting any such tension. That is, one should not keep on playing while being aware that there is tension. Otherwise, one will never learn to get rid of it.

The third step then is to learn how to get rid of it or avoid it in the first place. One must work on the coordination of muscle action with the aim of avoiding that antagonistic muscles are engaged simultaneously. This is not easy, even at slow speed. Tension occurs at slow speed as well, but there is much more time for the muscles to relax, so that tension may not build up or reach unhealthy levels.

In terms of "tricks", I think the biggest "trick" to avoid muscle tension is not to use muscles in the first place. That is, muscles should only be used when absolutely necessary. Let gravity do the rest.

In any case, avoiding tension must be practiced diligently. The goal is not only to be able to pull off a fast run, so that it comes out musically correct, but also anatomically/physiologically correct, otherwise injury may be the result.

[lagin]

My teacher would say to build strength.  As the muscles get stronger (from technical exercises or whatever), it's easy to play with less tension.  Tension is a lack of strength. (or of course, playing in front of people )

[xvimbi]

My teacher would say to build strength.  As the muscles get stronger (from technical exercises or whatever), it's easy to play with less tension.  Tension is a lack of strength. (or of course, playing in front of people )

Sorry, but IMHO, this kind of attitude is completely misguided in the best case and dangerous in the worst. It represents a complete lack of understanding where tension actually comes from.

[lagin]

Oh.  Where does it come from then?

[xvimbi]

Oh.  Where does it come from then?

Lack of strength is hardly the problem in piano playing. Anyone who has enough strength to make it through the day has enough strength to play a Beethoven concerto.

The problem is co-contraction of antagonistic muscles, i.e. not releasing a muscle in time before an antagonistic muscle contracts. The antagonistic muscle then not only has to overcome the resistance of the keys, but also the resistance of its counterpart muscle. This is a waste of energy and will affect both muscles at the same time. The often used term "relaxation" in piano playing refers to releasing a muscle before its counterpart contracts. Learning to realease and contract in time is a matter of coordination, not a matter of strength. Antagonistic muscle action in piano playing occurs, e.g., in lifting and lowering a finger and in forearm rotation, to name only two examples.

[mikeyg]

See, the problem is that there is 2 schools of thought.  the first (the tried and proven) is to use primarily your fingers for playing (this is what my teacher advocates),  The second is to use little finger, and alot of arm/wrist/body.  

I believe in the first school, so I play Hanon.  However, you must play Hanon correctly, or it will F you up.  Most other members on this forum are of the secone school, and essentially follow Chang's method (where you do little technique, and play olot of music).

So, finger strength comes from moving the fingers i.e. playing Hanon fff.

 

[xvimbi]

See, the problem is that there is 2 schools of thought.  the first (the tried and proven) is to use primarily your fingers for playing (this is what my teacher advocates),  The second is to use little finger, and alot of arm/wrist/body.

First of all, the second "school of thought" is perfectly "tried and true." The question is what is "true?" True for me is the technique that results in the least amount of health problems, aka injuries. The first one is clearly not compatible with this attitude.

I believe in the first school, so I play Hanon.  However, you must play Hanon correctly, or it will F you up.

This approach also requires the minimization of anatgonistic muscle action. It is therefore not different at all with respect to the problems under discussion.

Most other members on this forum are of the secone school, and essentially follow Chang's method (where you do little technique, and play olot of music).

So, finger strength comes from moving the fingers i.e. playing Hanon fff.

It seems you are thoroughly confusing two issues, if not more. "Hanon or not" is not equivalent to "strength or not." It simply refers to methods of technique acquisition. Strength/technique can be acquired either way. And the "second" school is not Chang's. He is only promoting it.

If you want to play with poise and elegance, you should choose the "second school of thought", because it treats the musician as a person, not as a set of fingers.

[bernhard]

The answer to the problem of co-contraction is here: Have a look.

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

A second important component of speed is simply knowing where to next place your fingers. Experiments done between accomplished pianists and non pianists showed that there were no significant differences between finger agility/speed between both groups. The reason the non-pianist could not play passages as fast was simply because they did not know the passages as well as the accomplished pianists.

A third important component of speed, is that in order to sound fast, you do not need to move fast, you have to move smaller. A lot of the effortlessness displayed by superlative pianist is due to the fact that even at breakneck speed, they are actually moving slowly. But their movements are very small.

There are more components of speed you can read about here.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom –  all about speed playing)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5756.msg56146.html#msg56146
(Talent – Attention to detail – example of scale in clusters and how the overlooked aim is to prepare fingers.)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing and an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – discussion on slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – analogy against slow practice using juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – moving the whole LH not only fingers)

Go to xvimbi’s profile and read all of his posts.

By the way, building strength decreases speed. Just look at runners and compare them with weight lifters. Ah, and before I forget, there are no muscles in the fingers, so you cannot build finger strength even if you want to. (xvimbi at this point will probably jump in to define “fingers”, but the metacarpals are not considered “fingers” in the common use of the word, and an anatomist would not go around talking about strengthening fingers when talking about the muscles of the “hand”, that is the metacarpals anyway).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

(xvimbi at this point will probably jump in to define “fingers”, but the metacarpals are not considered “fingers” in the common use of the word, and an anatomist would not go around talking about strengthening fingers when talking about the muscles of the “hand”, that is the metacarpals anyway).

 

I did this only in that particular thread, because I couldn't watch people fight 

I will never do it again! I promise. I am such a softy...

[chromatickler]

Experiments done between accomplished pianists and non pianists showed that there were no significant differences between finger agility/speed between both groups.

This may be true in general, but anyone should be able to tell from a cziffra video that that's not quite average finger speed.

[nomis]

It is average finger speed. Just wave your fingers randomly and you can see that your fingers can just move as fast as him. It's only that he can co-ordinate his fingers fast enough to hit the right notes.

[etudes]

It is average finger speed. Just wave your fingers randomly and you can see that your fingers can just move as fast as him. It's only that he can co-ordinate his fingers fast enough to hit the right notes.

´
i cant move 2 wrists of my hands following Cziffra bumblebee transcription 
sad!

[chromatickler]

It is average finger speed. Just wave your fingers randomly and you can see that your fingers can just move as fast as him.

WRONG. what you are suggesting is a simultaneous fluttering of all joints and lubricals in the hand which results in a visual illusion of speed. Measure the speed of displacement of a single digit triggered by the flection a single joint (you can even ignore independence in this case) and compare with what you see in a Cziffra video.