August Forster 190 Versus Steinway L or B

[bigsound1]

I have evaluated the following used Pianos:
1990 August Forster 190 for $19,000 (A- condition, black gloss- From GERMANY)
1920s Steinway L for $30,000 (B condition, black)
1993  Steinway B for $42,000 (A condition, mahogany)

The August Forster is at a different location and I could not compare at the same time, however I was greatly impressed on how it sounded, especially the bass response. The only negative thing was that it did no play as quiet as the Steinways (dynamics) could this perhaps be adjusted? The Steinway B had incredible "fluid like" action and great dynamics. (Note: There was another model B next to the first one for slightly less money that did not have the same action as the first one). I thought based on the cost you could not beat the value of the August Forster. There is a big difference in price here. (The B is at the ragged edge of our budget)


We have only been looking one week, although covered all stores in local area & many hours on the Internet investigating. (We stated out almost buying a new Pramberger  JP 175 for  $ 11,000 !) Have also looked at model M's but they lack bass response.


Any thoughts, comments... Thanks

[iumonito]

I would take the AF.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

I'm sure CJQ will be here any moment to tell you about August Förster

Your difference in actions are things which can be adjusted by a piano tech. It may be the store put attention on the one S&S and not the other  ie. two BM's next to each other, one clean and shiny and one unwashed which seems the better car?

[CJ Quinn]

I'm sure CJQ will be here any moment to tell you about August Förster

You rang, sir?

Buy the AF, the other two are JUNK!   

Hmm, sounds to me like you have three different price points, a bit of an odd decision to make.  But here's a bit of info.

When I was considering an AF, I read a post by a guy (it's on usenet, you can probably find it) who said he shopped for AF190s very seriously, but ended up buying a restored L.  Months later he went back and played the AF again.  He still liked his L better for its complex tone though he thought the bass on the AF was better (the AF is about 6 inches longer) and he thought the action on the AF was much better, even though he had spent considerable money on addional regulation work on the L.

My teacher has an L with an action which is in dreadful shape (to be fixed very soon), but that piano still has undeniable character.  My heart stops beating when she plays it. 

At these prices though, really it does not seem to be a tough decision. A 1920s piano is old, and in my mind there would always be questions of exactly how much of it was rebuilt or refurbished or just cleaned up a bit.  If the L is from a very reputable dealer, than that is a big plus though.  But 11k difference is huge.

As for the B, well that's the holy grail of pianos to some people.  If your budget is really that high than there are a huge amount of options, new, out there that you should explore as well. including a new AF215, my favorite home sized piano.

If you live in NYC you are welcome to come play my piano for another take on AF.

[bigsound1]

Thanks for the comments,

Do you think that the action could be adjusted on the AF190 to be similar to the Steinway B  we played? (It does have a Renner action)   The $42,000 used B had the smoothest action on any piano we ever played. One big criterion we have is the ease to play quiet. Some pianos make no sound at quiet passages.  If the AF could be adjusted like that we would probably buy it.  So, is this just something a good piano tech can perform ?

Also, does a new AF190 in black gloss cost a $50,000 ? If so is $19,000 is a good price for a 15 year old used one in great condition - just needing action adjustment ?

[jr11]

We started out almost buying a new Pramberger  JP 175 for  $ 11,000 !

If you find a good Pramberger, they are wonderful pianos. The problem seems to be consistency. I played one 175 that I fell in love with, but then I played another right beside it that was horrid. Ritmuller (if you can get your mind around the fact it's made in China) makes some terrific instruments, and I played a 7ft that rivaled any German piano, priced at $19,000cdn new! So there are gems at bargain prices out there, you just have to hunt. There are also some really awful Steinways, so the name doesn't necessarily mean top value.

Adjustments to the action on a piano do make a huge difference. I played one piano that should have been terrific that wasn't. It later had some work done on it by a fellow who used to be Keith Emerson's (of Emerson, Lake & Palmer) piano tech, and it blew me away! Smooth like butter. The most graphic example of action adjustment I'd ever come across.

[CJ Quinn]

Thanks for the comments,

Do you think that the action could be adjusted on the AF190 to be similar to the Steinway B  we played? (It does have a Renner action)   The $42,000 used B had the smoothest action on any piano we ever played. One big criterion we have is the ease to play quiet. Some pianos make no sound at quiet passages.  If the AF could be adjusted like that we would probably buy it.  So, is this just something a good piano tech can perform ?

Also, does a new AF190 in black gloss cost a $50,000 ? If so is $19,000 is a good price for a 15 year old used one in great condition - just needing action adjustment ?

Not sure what you mean by 'play quiet'.  AF's are known to have incredibly smooth, light  actions.  A 15 year  old piano could be very different from the factory spec, and might need regulation work.  If no work has ever been done on it it, I'd say for sure it needs action work.

In the US an AF190 would run about mid $30k.

[bigsound1]

"Not sure what you mean by 'play quiet'.  AF's are known to have incredibly smooth, light  actions.  A 15 year  old piano could be very different from the factory spec, and might need regulation work.  If no work has ever been done on it it, I'd say for sure it needs action work"


When trying to play soft, i.e. Prelude in C minor (Chopin) the keys do not respond to a light touch. The best action I have played on is a 1993 Steinway B,  although that's $42,000. Do you think with a good tech the AF190 could have action like a Steinway B ?

[keith d kerman]

"Not sure what you mean by 'play quiet'.  AF's are known to have incredibly smooth, light  actions.  A 15 year  old piano could be very different from the factory spec, and might need regulation work.  If no work has ever been done on it it, I'd say for sure it needs action work"


When trying to play soft, i.e. Prelude in C minor (Chopin) the keys do not respond to a light touch. The best action I have played on is a 1993 Steinway B,  although that's $42,000. Do you think with a good tech the AF190 could have action like a Steinway B ?

If you like the touch on a 1993 Steinway B, the August Forster is probably the wrong piano for you.  Like Boesendorfers, Bluethners and other German style pianos, the August Forster has an assist spring in the wippin that lessens the need for some of the front key mass to balance the hammer weight. 
The result of this is less inertia in the action and a lighter feel when compared with American style actions such as Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, and Baldwin, even when they have the identical touchweight. 
This can be an advantage for those who favor a more German or French style of playing that emphasizes the fingers and isolates them from the rest of the body.  If you play from a more typically American or Russian style, which consider the body a series of levers coordinated through gravity using the fingers to articulate but using weight and force for power, the German style action feels disconnected, and as if the keys are getting away from your fingers, and as if you are getting to the keybed too quickly.

If you want the sound of an August Forster, but the feel of a Steinway, if can be done.  But it is a major action redesign, and there are very few who know how to do this, and it is very expensive.    Of course even with identical actions, the different tonal responses of these instruments will influence your perception of the feel.

Hopefully you will find an existing piano that satisfies your demands for sound, feel, and price.   You might have to consider options other than August Forster and Steinway.

[CJ Quinn]

When trying to play soft, i.e. Prelude in C minor (Chopin) the keys do not respond to a light touch. The best action I have played on is a 1993 Steinway B,  although that's $42,000. Do you think with a good tech the AF190 could have action like a Steinway B ?

The main reason I bought an AF was because of my ability to control very soft playing, so I'd say the AF you are looking at needs some regulation work.  AF's have lovely smooth buttery action, maybe Axtremus will chime in here but I know he's said in his opinion that AF's have the best action he's played.

Keith is of course correct in that not every one likes a light action, and an AF is not going to play like a Steinway B.  Perhaps  the B you played has a nicely regulated action and the AF less so, and that is accounting for your preference for the B.

I don't know if there is any data available about pianits' preference for light German action vs heavier American type action.  My own observation is that most professional or conservatory trained pianists prefer heavier action, while the average non-professional prefers lighter action. 

[keith d kerman]

The main reason I bought an AF was because of my ability to control very soft playing, so I'd say the AF you are looking at needs some regulation work.  AF's have lovely smooth buttery action, maybe Axtremus will chime in here but I know he's said in his opinion that AF's have the best action he's played.

Keith is of course correct in that not every one likes a light action, and an AF is not going to play like a Steinway B.  Perhaps  the B you played has a nicely regulated action and the AF less so, and that is accounting for your preference for the B.

I don't know if there is any data available about pianits' preference for light German action vs heavier American type action.  My own observation is that most professional or conservatory trained pianists prefer heavier action, while the average non-professional prefers lighter action. 

You are probably right that this piano needs regulating, which will help it to play softer.   The right kind of voicing will also increase access to dynamics in both directions.  However, if one tries to play an August Forster like an American piano, they will have a hard time controlling it at soft volumes.  Same goes for Bluthner and Bosendofer, as well as most German style pianos ( Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinway being exceptions ).   These pianos usually have smaller overall voices than their American counterparts ( again, Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinway being exceptions), and also often have more clarity at all volumes.  All things being equal, the good American style pianos, because of their sound and action, generally have a larger dynamic range in both directions.   All things being equal meaning size, acoustic , and condition.  Good American pianos are designed to develop tone more quickly, which usually causes quicker decay as well, but it allows one to control dynamics better.  Good German (and Austrian ) piano usually have higher impedence in the soundboards, which helps them to sing ( slower decay) but also causes the tone to develop more slowly.  The best pianos have achieved a wonderful balance between the speed at which the tone develops, and the slowness of the decay.  All of these things affect the perception of the responsiveness of the action.

[CJ Quinn]

Thanks for all the info Keith.  So Steingraebers have an American type action?

How's things over at pianodealerworld.com?

[keith d kerman]

Thanks for all the info Keith.  So Steingraebers have an American type action?

How's things over at pianodealerworld.com?

Steingraebers have an action and tone that people who are comfortable on Bluethners, Boses, AFs feel right at home on, and people who are comfortable on Steinways. Masons, and Baldwins also feel right at home.  It has a lot to do with the responsiveness of the sound as well.  Since you refuse to visit to try them, you will have to take my word for it.

The answer to your second question is " going nowhere fast"

[CJ Quinn]

Steingraebers have an action and tone that people who are comfortable on Bluethners, Boses, AFs feel right at home on, and people who are comfortable on Steinways. Masons, and Baldwins also feel right at home.  It has a lot to do with the responsiveness of the sound as well.  Since you refuse to visit to try them, you will have to take my word for it.

harhar.  Thanks.  I do take your word for it

[Axtremus]

Keith D. Kerman wrote:

"Like Boesendorfers, Bluethners and other German style pianos, the August Forster has an assist spring in the wippin that lessens the need for some of the front key mass to balance the hammer weight. 
The result of this is less inertia in the action and a lighter feel when compared with American style actions such as Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, and Baldwin, even when they have the identical touchweight."

...

"... if one tries to play an August Forster like an American piano, they will have a hard time controlling it at soft volumes.  Same goes for Bluthner and Bosendofer, as well as most German style pianos ( Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinway being exceptions ).   These pianos usually have smaller overall voices than their American counterparts ( again, Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinway being exceptions), and also often have more clarity at all volumes.  All things being equal, the good American style pianos, because of their sound and action, generally have a larger dynamic range in both directions.   All things being equal meaning size, acoustic , and condition.  Good American pianos are designed to develop tone more quickly, which usually causes quicker decay as well, but it allows one to control dynamics better.  Good German (and Austrian ) piano usually have higher impedence in the soundboards, which helps them to sing ( slower decay) but also causes the tone to develop more slowly."

Great! I have zero understanding of wippen assist spring and soundboard impedence, but FWIW, my experiences with those different pianos track very closely to your characterization of them. (Except Bluethner and Steingraeber which I have not play yet.)

With regards to the AF action, yes, I like that very much. In terms of touch, I tend to lump it with Boesendorfer and, to a lesser extent, Pleyel as having the same kind of "feel." The new ones I've played have been smooth, light, but also give good control... it doesn't just "fly away" from your fingers. Took me a while to adapt to that kind of touch when I first played an AF, but after a 20~30 minute adjustment period, I love it. (It reminds me of playing foosball on a freshly lubed foosball table. )

A few things I'm curious about: Fazioli, Schimmel (grands), and Estonia -- I don't think I can lump them together with AF/Boesie in terms of "action feel," and I can't lump them with the Steinway/M&H group either. They seem to straddle in between. So... do Fazioli, Schimmel (grands), and Estonia's actions use wippen assist springs?

They all use Renner, right? Can I assume that there are Renner with wippen assist spring and Renner without wippen assist spring? What about those Korean and Chinese pianos that say "Renner inside"? Do they get the spring or no-spring version of Renner? Do your Maestoso and Irmler grand pianos have wippen assist springs?

Thanks.

[keith d kerman]

Great! I have zero understanding of wippen assist spring and soundboard impedence, but FWIW, my experiences with those different pianos track very closely to your characterization of them. (Except Bluethner and Steingraeber which I have not play yet.)

A few things I'm curious about: Fazioli, Schimmel (grands), and Estonia -- I don't think I can lump them together with AF/Boesie in terms of "action feel," and I can't lump them with the Steinway/M&H group either. They seem to straddle in between. So... do Fazioli, Schimmel (grands), and Estonia's actions use wippen assist springs?

They all use Renner, right? Can I assume that there are Renner with wippen assist spring and Renner without wippen assist spring? What about those Korean and Chinese pianos that say "Renner inside"? Do they get the spring or no-spring version of Renner? Do your Maestoso and Irmler grand pianos have wippen assist springs?

Thanks.

Fazioli and Estonia do not have the extra wippin assist spring.  Schimmel might, I am not sure, but they feel to me like they might.

Renner makes both types of wipps.
As for Korean and Chinese with Renner, probably more often than not they do not have the extra spring.

Sometimes our Maestoso and Irmlers have this, but it is for a slightly different reason. 
When we want a piano to have a heavier hammer, without additional lead in the key, we may use the wippins with the assist spring to allow the front key mass to be what we think is ideal, and keep the touchweight where we want it as well.  In this type of case, without the assist spring the touchweight would be too high, or you would end up with too much front key mass.  It also allows you to precisely control the downweight and evenness. 

[iumonito]

It works wonderfully, by the way.

Along those lines (and I believe mine doesn't have them) some pianos have adjustable whippens (spell?), right?  I think Mason & Hamlin does.

[keith d kerman]

It works wonderfully, by the way.

Along those lines (and I believe mine doesn't have them) some pianos have adjustable whippens (spell?), right?  I think Mason & Hamlin does.

Hi Iumonito!

Yours does have them, and we used them to keep the touchweight correct after we added weight to your hammers.  All wippins ( or whippins, I have seen it spelled both ways) are adjustable.  I am talking about wippins with an additional spring.  Masons don't have this.

[iumonito]

Hey!  Good to know.  I must be something else adjustable around there I am thinking of.  The action of the Irmler works great with the springs, and it very much matches your description of the sound not developing as fast as in a Mason, but then singing there for ever.  That suits my taste.  Merci!

Sorry to linger on a piano not mentioned in the original thread.  To bring things home and reiterate, the AF sounds to me a much better option.

[hiracer]

Good German (and Austrian ) piano usually have higher impedence in the soundboards, which helps them to sing ( slower decay) but also causes the tone to develop more slowly. 

Sorry for the dumb question, but what is "higher impedence in the soundboards?"

Am I right in assuming that this is completely independant of the action, albeit higher impedence might influence the subjective feel of the action?

Thanks.

[whippen boy]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum     Perhaps my experience might add something to this thread.

I agree with the other comments about shopping around.  If your budget is closer towards 40,000 (instead of 19,000) then you can really have some fun with the shopping process.  OK, 19,000 can be fun too. 

It helps to take your time, and enjoy the journey.

Several comments were made about typical German-style actions being light, and their voices being smaller (Steingraeber and Hamburg Steinways were noted as exceptions).  Another German piano that you might add to this exception list is Grotrian (Grotrian-Steinweg, outside of USA).

It took me a little while to adjust to the Grotrian's action.  At first it seemed incongruous to have a (slightly) heavy action producing such clean, bell-like tones.  After a few minutes of familiarization, I began to realize what I could do with this instrument (it's a new 225).  The pianissimo control is amazing!  I began to try to see just how pianissimo I could play, without dropping any notes.  Now, my practice sessions always include this 'pianissimo exercise', because it is so unlike what I've experienced with other pianos I've played.

Conversely, the piano can put out a lot of sound - a rich bass and powerful treble.  Since this piano does emphasize the fundamental (some prefer to call it a 'European' sound), an added benefit is that it simply does not distort at super-loud volumes.

I don't know if Grotrian uses whippen-assist springs, but I guess they probably don't.... ?

New Grotrians are pricey, but you might be able to find a used one.  It also doesn't hurt to try some new ones out for comparison's sake.  You might find the combination of tone and touch you are seeking.

I'm not a salesman, really! 

PS: I also own a M&H "A", Ivers & Pond upright  and regularly practice on a 'Stanwoodized' Hamburg C.  I love them all.

[Piazzo22]

Conversely, the piano can put out a lot of sound - a rich bass and powerful treble.  Since this piano does emphasize the fundamental (some prefer to call it a 'European' sound), an added benefit is that it simply does not distort at super-loud volumes.

That´s strange. AF, Bösendorfer (altough Austria) and other european pianos (the typical german piano), have loudest higher harmonics than americans, even Steinways.
I always notice the singing fundamental more on Steinways (no matter how bright the voicing).
That´s why they call it warm to the european sound. It´s like there´s less prominence of the fundamental.