How long should a tuning last

[tenn]

I have a one year old Yamaha su131.
After it's second tuning I asked the tuner to come back because some of the notes had a wavy sound to them. He said that it was normal for pianos to start going out of tune straight away and he would expect to be paid to come back.
How long can I reasonably expect my piano to keep it's unisons and to stay in tune?

[mamma2my3sons]

If the piano is in good shape & the enviromental humidity is somewhat controlled, I would expect the tuning to stay for 3-4 months or longer.

You didn't say how soon after the last tuning did you recall the tuner. However think if its only been a week or so & in a controlled environment, would expect the tuner to come & touch it up next time he's in the area. Would still give him something for his time/gas etc.

Hopefully someone with more experience in this area will respond to you.

[tenn]

I'm talking about a few days after it's tuning

[c18cont]

He SHOULD be responsible,

I would stay on him 'till he made it good...he did a poor job here...as even a really bad pinblock can be made, with careful tuning, to stay for 3 or 4 weeks....

I think it is wise to learn to "pull up" the unisons yourself..(forgive me, tuners...) as it is the first thing noticed in a falling out of tune. If you can touch up the unisons, by using good concepts, it will help 'till the tuner can come....VERY good if someone has a performance, and you discover a "C" or a "G" is out...and it's in the MIDDLE of the range!!!

John Cont

[iumonito]

I am sorry you had this bad experience.  Assuming there is nothing wrong with your pinblock and that your piano has not been subject to a 20% delta in humidity, your tuning should last 4 to 6 months.  Impeccable tuning will disappear in a couple of days or 6 hours of Rachmaninov, whichever happens first, but I think you are not talking about concert-ready tunning, but just having your piano not sound as Crumb while you are playing Chopin.

I have a different thought, though, on having your technician come back to fix this problem.  See, if he messed the tunning up once, and has an attitude about coming to fix it, I would not want that tunner within five miles of my piano.  Get another tunner and fight about money if you feel you must, but do not give this patzer a second chance to ruin your pinblock and break a few strings.

Which brings me to the second subject I wanted to touch: touch up your unisons only if you know your pinblock is hopeless, you don't mind it becomes so, or you are actually learning the technique under teh supervision of one who knows.  See, the pinblock is a delicate thing, and a gross twist of a pin can do much damage to the tunning stability of that note, for ever.

[tenn]

Thanks for the advice. It's not humididy and it's not Rachmaninov. I'm just a grade 4 student. The only time I touch these notes is when I play scales. He tells me it takes time for a new piano to stabilise. If this is the case, I don't want to be unfair to him by blaming him for something that may be out of his control. Some of the notes in the second from top octave have already lost their unison after a few days.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Generally a new  (or newly restung)  piano should be tuned 3 - 4 times in its first year as strings stretch/settle in.

Buying a piano with a free tuning and waiting to the last minute to have that free tuning then the tuner will be being paid little by the store for that tuning.

[c18cont]

You Know, iumonito,

Thats' a d--- good point...Who wants a bad tuner back

John Cont

[Glyptodont]

One point that has not been addressed -- how about differences between (grand) pianos as to how well they hold their tuning? 

And let's take new pianos, not worn-out ones.

The reason this is significant -- we have had the same tuner for 15 years.  We have a 5' 8" grand.

Early on, during the piano's 2nd or 3rd tuning, the tuner seemed pleased with the piano and said that our piano "holds its tune well." 

The way he said this -- and he has said it a number of times over the years -- he implies some pianos do not hold their tune well.

If we leave aside environment, and just look at the piano itself, what are factors that make for poor tuning stability or good tuning stability in a piano?   Or is it just the lemon factor -- like, most Ford cars run fine, but occasionally there's a "lemon."

[hrschlosser]

If we leave aside environment, and just look at the piano itself, what are factors that make for poor tuning stability or good tuning stability in a piano?   Or is it just the lemon factor -- like, most Ford cars run fine, but occasionally there's a "lemon."

Poor tuning stability is caused by: loose tuning pins, bad scale design, bad fitting of the pinblock to the plate (in grands), too much friction of the string termination points (this makes it difficult for the tuner to get the string stable), not very solid construction (because the piano reacts more on environmental changes).

A good piano can hold it's tune for a year or even longer if the environmental conditions are very stable.

Best regards,
Jens

[tenn]

My tuner talks about the pins bedding in and the piano stabilising.
The suggestion is that they need several tunings and a few years before they can become fully reliable.
The corollary (sp?) is that if a new piano isn't tuned enough in the early years the pins become embedded out of tune and consequenly the piano is impossible to tune.
Any truth in this?

[c18cont]

I refuse to get into this very far, but, I am a fair tech. taught by a company, but never certified, as it was summer jobs for me. I never did anything I was unsure of...promise..

I graduated University with BA piano and later Bac. Mus. Ed.. major choral....(NO big deal...it is just why I never stayed in either piano or organ repair and tuning...and I am saying, I am NOT a tech. now...!!!)

I tell you this to tell a story....It has to do with trusting your technician...!!!

I had an 1880's Richard Lipp 6'2"..(Stuttgart)..and it had one note that slipped a tad....I called the main tech at that time in the area for a complete tuning, as I HATE tuning anyway...

While I was out in the yard talking to a friend, the technician I called, took his blocks and mallet, and drove the pin to the "touchy" string, slightly "south"...

If ANYONE can tell me what was wrong with that, and what happened...You will be widely known as knowledgable on both Lipp in particular, and also some others from the late 1800's!!!! (Technicians anywhere out there?)?

Best,   John Cont

[Bacfokievrahms]

If ANYONE can tell me what was wrong with that, and what happened...You will be widely known as knowledgable on both Lipp in particular, and also some others from the late 1800's!!!! (Technicians anywhere out there?)?

Good evening, I am knightrider and  I bring you another episode of knightrider: the knight who rides on cars.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

If ANYONE can tell me what was wrong with that, and what happened...You will be widely known as knowledgable on both Lipp in particular, and also some others from the late 1800's!!!! (Technicians anywhere out there?)?

Best, John Cont

Some early tuning pins had a very pronounced thread as a screw does, modern tuning pins are actually four consecutive grooves. I guess he hit it and it broke!

[c18cont]

A good answer indeed,

And it probably could have happened, but in this case what happened was much more dangerous, and came from not looking, or paying attention. It required care and luck to set it right...

Anyone else...??   John Cont

[c18cont]

Maybe I shouldn't drag this out, not getting much interest....

The answer is a lot more important than the question, and I actually know little about classic piano construction to talk on it anyway...

What happened when he attempted to drive the pin a bit to tighten it up..(not at all an uncommon practice...even on expensive instruments..) he split a little piece out of the bottom of the pinblock, as it was a blind pinblock..(that is not bored through as is also common. (We could spend some interesting time on the merits of each..as it has to do with humidity...So...what is best, closed pinholes, or open??)

It is of course likely on this 110 year old piano that the pins had been tapped down several times...He should have been more cautious..as some blind block pianos have only the smallest fraction between the pin bottom, and the bottom of the hole to begin with..(see many sites on the web for pictures....) This piano had a super easy action to pull...he should have done that at the least....

Long and short of it....he offered me several free tunings...I repaired it myself later with marine glue..(the best choice for this kind of work on a pin block as you don't add any unwanted moisture...)

I DID show it to the fellow who bought the piano along with a good explanation of the entire piano condition...as he wanted to have it re-built, and was wealthy enough to do so if he wished...I was glad to see it, as that way, it got a new pin block. As he lives a few states away, I don't know who did the job, or how it came out...but the piano scale was supposed to be near wonderful on most Lipp and Son's, so I believe it probably was worth it to him...

John Cont

[janice]

Thanks for the advice. It's not humididy and it's not Rachmaninov.

I haven't read to the end of the thread, which might clue me in.  I can't read it all right now, but...

(hangs head in embarrassment)

what on earth is a Rachmaninov?  I assume that you don't mean the composer.

[iumonito]

The composer.  If you play a piano hard, it goes a little out of tune.  You should not loose unisons, but you do loose equal temperament.

Either that or the bartender has been experimenting again.

[tenn]

I think I'll just get another tuning in 3 months from someone else and see how it goes. Thanks everybody for the advice.

[pianodoc]

What has not yet been brought up is how far off the piano was before the tuning.  If a piano is way off pitch before tuning, it's pretty difficult to get a really clean and stable tuning.  Combined with being a new instrument, it's a difficult situation for any technician.  Was there anything noted on the invoice to give you a clue?

[c18cont]

Good reminder and good point Pianodoc...

Best,   John Cont

[tenn]

What has not yet been brought up is how far off the piano was before the tuning.  If a piano is way off pitch before tuning, it's pretty difficult to get a really clean and stable tuning.  Combined with being a new instrument, it's a difficult situation for any technician.  Was there anything noted on the invoice to give you a clue?

It's never been way out of tune. In fact it's just the wavy sound of unisons being out that bothers me.