An Uncomfortable Student-Teacher Relationship

[eliza]

I'm not sure how much this pertains to the Piano Forum. However, I am having a problem with one of my students:

Uh, well... I might as well just come right out and say it: one of my students is getting vissibly aroused when he plays the piano during lessons, and it's really starting to bother me. I would've talked to him about it, but it's really embarassing and I'd rather not bring it up. Especially with all the laws they have in place about sexual harassment and minors. I don't want to get sued for saying anything. What would you do in this situation? Also; he's currently going through a personal problem and I don't want to make things harder for him.

Thanks for all your help,

Eliza.

[eliza]

   .

[lagin]

how old is he?  how old are you?

[eliza]

My student is 17, and I am 30.

[pianonut]

between your posts and porcorinas (oh, yes, and the mysterious piano man), i've been laughing all day.  what started as a rather dull, pick the weeds, do the laundry has turned into a delightful mental challenge.  what would i do in your situation.  would it embarrass the student to point it out?  maybe with your pencil.

using the same tactics as when students cry might be appropriate.  ignore the obvious, and try to focus yourself on the page that you are discussing and talk a lot.  he won't be embarrassed by the time he stands up, and if you don't appear to notice-it's a moot point.

for instant solution.  accidentally spill your water bottle on him, profusely apologize - reschedule lesson.

[lagin]

Hmm.  Him being 17 makes it harder because you can't just tell his parents.  You could try to subtely embarrass him into stopping without making it look like that.  Like if he's staring too much you could try, do I have something on my shirt?  And look at your shirt in your most authentic way.  You being 30 and him being 17 is good in a way.  You'ld really have a problem if you were say 19.  Then again, I don't know if slightly embarrassing him is the way to go, for you said he had other problems as well.  Do you think this might make his other problem worse?  This may seem like an aweful question, but I'm only trying to avoid this getting ugly, but do you need him as a student?  Could you think of a reason to pass him on to another teacher?  I guess I'd need some more information to be of more help.  All my students are too young for me to have encountered this personally.  Sorry.  If you want, I could ask my teacher if she has ever had this problem before.  Let me know what you think.  btw, do you teach out of your private home, and is there anyone else around when you teach him?

[eliza]

Well, I don't know. It's very hard for me to pay attention amidst all of this. Honestly, I've had to bite my tongue a couple of times because I've almost busted out in laughter. The outline is really obvious and huge.

[eliza]

Well, I want to keep him as a student... he's a very nice kid. He's also very gifted, playing we're currently working on Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata and we've also just started working on Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto.

[pianonut]

are you sure you are 30?  it sounds like you are looking at his pants too much.  definately wouldn't try the foot on foot method of teaching pedalling.  if teachers paid attention to the things their students wear (nail polish, blouses, skirts etc, that some girls/women wear) they might be just as distracting.  i say it would be discrimination to pass him off to someone else.

this is one note to teachers and students.  dress comfortably and not distractingly for lessons.  

[Siberian Husky]

next time you are giving him lessons...make sure your "life long partner" is "visiting"...*wink*

[eliza]

... See, nobody takes me serious. Everybody just laughs. I tried telling my boyfriend about this, but he's not help, he just laughs at me. I mean, granted, he's a handsome and mature boy. But I obviously know nothing will ever happen, he's my student! Another thing I've noticed... he's always starting at my brests, this is not the first time this has happened either, other students have done this too.

[lagin]

i'm taking you serious eliza

[lagin]

Pianonut did have a good point, though.  Have you thought of teaching in a nice sweater?  Something bulky that you could put on to teach him?  I know it sounds dumb, but it might work being that males are visually aroused.  It might deter him.

[Siberian Husky]

eliza...im really sorry but..guys will be guys...he is a ripe 17 year old boy...its like telling a dog he cant eat..

its not that nobody cares about your situation seriously..as uncomfortable as it is to you...just ignore it,,wear more concealing clothing..but dont flame him for it...im not justifying his behavior..im simply saying...its a DOG EAT DOG world

EDIT: grrr

[ted]

It all sounds like good news to me. I wouldn't worry about it. If it's obviously not bothering him with respect to his music I'd just forget about it.

[eliza]

I've done my best to stay concealed, and it's pretty hot where I live anyway, and despite this fact I still wear a sweater (there's no air conditioning in my practice room).

[lagin]

could you try the ,
"do i have something on my shirt?"
if it works great, if he gets crude, you then have ground to take to his parents, you might want to secretly tape that lesson in case he gets crude and then denies it

[jazzyprof]

I mean, granted, he's a handsome and mature boy. But I obviously know nothing will ever happen, he's my student!

Eliza, are you sure you don't have a crush on this boy???

From my perspective, the boy hasn't done anything wrong.  An erection is a totally involuntary reaction.  He hasn't come on to you or harassed you in any way.  There is no need to embarrass him by pointing out the bulge in his pants.  Just keep your eyes glued to his fingers, try wearing loose fitting sweats, baggy pants, and have your boyfriend drop by occasionally during lessons, as suggested.  I know it's not your fault that you're so darn hot...but it's not his fault either that his hormones are raging.  Hmm, haven't movies been made about this sort of thing?

[aajjmb]

what IS WRONG WITH THE KID!  Erection while playing piano?  Tell him to go get a g/f / have a wank

[ted]

I still cannot quite grasp your point. Why does this worry you enough to raise the issue for discussion ? It is surely a natural but trivial occurrence of which no more need be said. Just ignore it.

[possom46]

i'm taking you serious eliza

I had one like this years ago, the problem was he was 14!!! He used to come in wearing his best clothes, hair gelled, immaculate and reeking of aftershave (bless him), I never found it much of a problem, he gave up about a year later, I just made sure that on his lessons I was wearing respectable "piano teacher" clothes 

[i_m_robot]

My student is 17, and I am 30.

ehem...sniff...cough...cough

try relaxing your face (not smiling), hunching over slightly, and not standing close to him (with being too suspicious)

if none of these work then there is nothing you can do but....

*resists urge to joke*

[pianonut]

give him lessons in the afternoon?  asked my husband about this and he says morning lessons might be part of the problem...following Ted's idea about natural occurrances.  this is still making me laugh today.  why am i so silly.  porcorina is disguised again.

i liked the post about your boyfriend dropping in - or being there.  and, or put his pic on your computer and leave it up (full screen).

i don't think i ever took adult students except on the weekend when my husband was around.  made me feel better that no one would accuse me of anything because he was around. 

[sonatainfsharp]

I have to say I have had far scarier situations during lessons than this, so I am laughing quite a bit. I am having a hard time taking you seriously.

First of all, why are you looking so much? I know that sounds silly, but it is a serious question.  "Out of sight, out of mind" as they say. Unless you think he is going to try to pull something on you, I would just not look and forget about it. It's no big deal.

Let me put your situation into perspective a bit:

I do understand that there may be reason for concern, generally speaking. I teach mainly girls ages 8-17 and I am a 27 year old male. I was completely freaked out one summer--a student, I think she was 14 at the time, came in for her lesson. She was warm so she started to take a heavy shirt off since she had a tank top underneath-- generally this would be no big deal. Well, her tank top came up too, she had no bra on, and she accidentally flashed me everything she had. She apologized and said it was no big deal. I, on the other hand, thought I was going to die and go to jail for the rest of my life. It took me two months to get over that 4 second event. I was talking to her at the time, so I was looking in her general direction before turning around so fast that my neck cracked, but I felt so horrible about it anyway. She just laughed at my reaction.

I felt better after talking to some guitar teachers who mainly have high school age boys and girls who want to be "rockers." These teachers have students actually ask them out on dates a few times a year. I had a 17 year old ask me out for coffee last week as a matter of fact. I would talk to her parents about her behavior, but they are freakier than she is, so I just left it alone.

So, anyway, I am just trying to put things into perspective for you. Maybe this helps, or maybe it doesn't. I simply wouldn't worry about it. I mean, what are you going to accomplish?

[aajjmb]

porcorina is disguised again.

How can ou tell that its porcorina (i don't doubt you) lol just wonderin

[shasta]

I still cannot quite grasp your point. Why does this worry you enough to raise the issue for discussion ? It is surely a natural but trivial occurrence of which no more need be said. Just ignore it.

I'm with Ted. 

Elisa, why do you assume it is because of you (i.e. your looks, your dress)??  His arousal is more likely because he is peaceful and relaxed playing the piano.  Be professional, ignore it, and focus on piano.

[inkiepoo]

Why could this be pocorina?

1. Eliza is a newby as of two days ago (pocorina was banned a few day ago)
2. Eliza writes just like pocorina! I smell a rat...

[Bob]

Regardless of whether the original poster was making a joke, inappropriate student behavior is still a serious topic.  In this case, it sounds more awkward, but still something the teacher has to deal with.

When in doubt, tell the parents.  Explain your version of what happened.  Be objective.  If you're professional, there probably won't be a problem.  If there is something that would interfere with teaching or something that can damage you professionally, you need to deal with it.  If there an issue with a child, the parents need to be aware of it.

Be certain you have a door open or a window in the door or glass walls so everyone can see you teach.

The student represents a potential problem.  The student can lie or the student can joke around.  They can't get in much trouble, but you can -- even if you do everything right.

Never touch a student for any reason in any way.  You can never tell with a student how they will interprete this.  If they don't get the explanation, then you need to work on explaining things better or they might just be too stupid to get it (pardon the dis on students, but some of them don't get it.  With that type of student, I don't think moving their hands into position is really going to help them much anyway.).

Invite the parents into the lesson.  There's no reason they can't be there.  If you explain an awkward situation and what you are doing professionally (ie you aren't doing anything wrong) and then you invite the parents into the lesson if they want to be there -- This will show the parents a lot.  You've told them the situation, explained how you do things professionally, and you've invited them in to see for themselves.  It's very up front.

If you're at the piano with the student (or just get two pianos maybe), be sure to sit an arm's length away on the side and slightly behind the student.  Female teachers should never lean over a student.  You can demonstrate things on the upper keys or have the student move if you need the whole piano (or use a second one again).

[Jacey1973]

Ah, this must be a really embaressing situation. Its easy to say ignore it but if i was in your situation i wouldn't be able to ignore `it' so easily!! I guess pupil-teacher relationships can be tricky sometimes, because you build up quite a close relationship when you're taching one to one. It's not like teaching a whole group of pupils.

As long as your pupil isn't doing anything inappropriate then there's not really much you can do- is he aware it's happening?!! (Well you would think so but maybe he doesn't think you've noticed!)

[musicman]

It's strange he's getting aroused during the lesson. If he's focused on the music, his mind shouldn't be on sex. I don't see what's wrong with mentioning it to his parents...maybe I'm missing something here. It might be normal for a teenage boy, but clearly the boy hasn't learnt that there's an appropriate time and place, which is certainly not during a music lesson.

Assuming this is a serious question (which, as some have indicated, and I agree, it is anyway), I think any teacher in that position should immediately terminate the relationship. If this boy is emotionally disturbed, he could the more easily sue for harrassment. These days, harrassment probably includes just looking at him.  The threat of a suit is the last thing the teacher wants, especially when (as it appears in this case) there's no other adult present in the music room.

[dlu]

It's strange he's getting aroused during the lesson. If he's focused on the music, his mind shouldn't be on sex. I don't see what's wrong with mentioning it to his parents...maybe I'm missing something here. It might be normal for a teenage boy, but clearly the boy hasn't learnt that there's an appropriate time and place, which is certainly not during a music lesson.

Assuming this is a serious question (which, as some have indicated, and I agree, it is anyway), I think any teacher in that position should immediately terminate the relationship. If this boy is emotionally disturbed, he could the more easily sue for harrassment. These days, harrassment probably includes just looking at him.  The threat of a suit is the last thing the teacher wants, especially when (as it appears in this case) there's no other adult present in the music room.

Scriabin used to get aroused while playing and performing all the time, and there are countless sexual inuendos in his music.  No, this doesn't make it "OK" but...

And...erections aren't always controllable. Teens tend to have involuntary erections at unpredictable times so, we can't necessarily blame the poor kid...(but...don't let him get distracted by your body, however that is possible, during his lesson...whenever he looks at you in this way give him a perturbed stare...and then nonchalantly continue with the lesson...).

DLu

[bachs_homegurl]

Wow! That is a lot of interesting feedback eliza. My suggestion is simply, introduce this boy to one of your female students...She may not thank you later but the important thing is your comfort while teaching. Let us know how it works out!

[milkcarton08]

I agree with bachs_homegurl maybe he's just not getting enough attention from girls,

- michael

[rob47]

  asked my husband about this and he says morning lessons might be part of the problem...

haha there's a street near where i live called Morningwood. hahahahaha













i'm 22.

[anda]

why is everyone assuming it's the teacher's fault?? i'm "glad" to see the politics "if something's wrong it's the teacher's fault" works everywere, not just in my school...

anyway, if the general context is so bad (sorry to hear there are countries where you can get sued for touching a kid's arm) then you have to protect yourself - try making his lessons open-lessons (invite more of your students to sit and watch - i mean, if he's so good and advanced, they might learn something from these lessons, right?). sit somewhere behind him, so that he can't see you while playing. and remember - it's his fault, not yours!

[happyface94]

Well, I can understand him, I'm 18 and just by reading your posts I find it arousing (I'm kidding)

Anyway, my teacher always dresses very professionally, like someone else posted, demonstrate on the far end of the piano or make him move if you must demonstrate anything.

There's nothing too wrong about getting attracted on someone else, problems occur if the attraction is reciprocate (or if you are purposly making him feel that way).

If you feel weird around him though, isn't it because he's pushed it too far though? In this same instance, how would you react if he was near your age, do you think that at 17 you do not have the necessary maturity?

[rafant]

Dear Prof Eliza,
I agree with Bob in that is a serious issue and with Anda in that, being your student's fault, there is a risk, unjust for you, of being considered your fault, and not only as a teacher but as a woman.
Can we rule out any medical conditions (f. i. priapism) where an erection is uncontrollable? Or some stranger condition where the music causes such arousal? Any of such possibilities could exempt your student.
But I'm afraid that a probable situation is that you are an absolutely lovely and attractive woman, and the boy is fantasising about you.
At 17, he's not a child, but almost a young man, so he knows what's good and bad. A man have the resources for avoiding an erection or for hiding it, if he wants to. Does he attempt to conceal his arousal? If not, he wants you realize it, and in this case he's not behaving respectfully nor gentlemanly, but as an exhibitionist.
While an erection maybe spontaneous, is held by active stimulation or voluntary fantasising. And so in this aspect the boy seems guilty. As Musicman pointed out, there would be no issue at all if he remained concentrated in his lesson.
I'm not sure it is in your hands to stop the things if you keep teaching him. Hardly he would be willing to abandon his fantasising about you, less if he see you often, and maybe he hopes to reach a more advanced stage. It would be better for both that he goes to a new teacher, an aged female one or a male one. Don't doubt yourself in taking this way because he is passing through hard times, since being talented as he is, he won't lack of support and solutions.

[ChristmasCarol]

I'm somewhat dismayed by the guy's responses.  Haven't seen giggles and behavior like this since junior high school.  Personally, I would be extremely uncomfortable with this.  How out of control is he?  I've never experienced anything like this.  I would drop the student if it doesn't stop.  As far as not touching students?  That's ridiculous.   The little kids still like to give me hugs when I leave, and since their moms are standing there smiling we're all okay. 

[hgiles]

Eliza,
Can you take on another student?

I tried to resist the jester's approach, but this is the livliest thread on this forum!

[Nana_Ama]

Regardless of whether the original poster was making a joke, inappropriate student behavior is still a serious topic.  In this case, it sounds more awkward, but still something the teacher has to deal with.

When in doubt, tell the parents.  Explain your version of what happened.  Be objective.  If you're professional, there probably won't be a problem.  If there is something that would interfere with teaching or something that can damage you professionally, you need to deal with it.  If there an issue with a child, the parents need to be aware of it.

Be certain you have a door open or a window in the door or glass walls so everyone can see you teach.

The student represents a potential problem.  The student can lie or the student can joke around.  They can't get in much trouble, but you can -- even if you do everything right.

Never touch a student for any reason in any way.  You can never tell with a student how they will interprete this.  If they don't get the explanation, then you need to work on explaining things better or they might just be too stupid to get it (pardon the dis on students, but some of them don't get it.  With that type of student, I don't think moving their hands into position is really going to help them much anyway.).

Invite the parents into the lesson.  There's no reason they can't be there.  If you explain an awkward situation and what you are doing professionally (ie you aren't doing anything wrong) and then you invite the parents into the lesson if they want to be there -- This will show the parents a lot.  You've told them the situation, explained how you do things professionally, and you've invited them in to see for themselves.  It's very up front.

If you're at the piano with the student (or just get two pianos maybe), be sure to sit an arm's length away on the side and slightly behind the student.  Female teachers should never lean over a student.  You can demonstrate things on the upper keys or have the student move if you need the whole piano (or use a second one again).

I agree with Bob, especially on the inviting the parents to sit in on the lesson part.  If you explain the situation to the parents and they see it for themselves than they can help you find a solution to it.  If you feel that uncomfortable maybe you should refer him to another teacher...

[i_m_robot]

I'm somewhat dismayed by the guy's responses.  Haven't seen giggles and behavior like this since junior high school.  Personally, I would be extremely uncomfortable with this.  How out of control is he?  I've never experienced anything like this.  I would drop the student if it doesn't stop.  As far as not touching students?  That's ridiculous.   The little kids still like to give me hugs when I leave, and since their moms are standing there smiling we're all okay. 

yes one could always cut it off

but accepting that this is perfectly normal whether you like it not is the best option

you cant drop him for some thing he cant really control

itd be like dropping him because he studdards or ticks

or for even coughing


Oh yeah and its a damned shame the last three sentences you (CC) typed even exist

[dlu]

Eliza,
How goes this situation? Have you taken any of our advice? Has any of it worked out?
DLu

[Bob]

Eliza registered on May 16th. 
She was last active May 16th. 
She has a total of 7 posts, all on this thread.

I think it's obvious... 


Still a worthwhile topic.








(... obvious that she ran off with this student. )

[tds]

He's also very gifted, playing we're currently working on Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata and we've also just started working on Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto.

is his name...hmm... vikram, by any chance?

[Jacey1973]

Eliza registered on May 16th. 
She was last active May 16th. 
She has a total of 7 posts, all on this thread.

I think it's obvious... 


Still a worthwhile topic.








(... obvious that she ran off with this student. )

 

[hodi]

this is so funny my stomach ache... lolllllllllllll
i wish i had a good looking piano teacher chick

[Doodle]

The question, "Why is everyone blaming the teacher."

This can be answered, and it was answered when I had my first job.   Everything that goes on in a classroom/private lesson is the teachers fault.   Either through direct or indirect control.   In this (seemingly fictional) example, the teacher is at fault for not sending the student to another (male) teacher.   That would seem to be the best solution.  It is the adults responsibility to recognize a potential (lawsuit causing) problem and avoid it. 

It is my responsibility to stay in absolute control of the lessons.  For students that like to joke around too much, I remain serious and keep them on track.   For students that get nervous, I make jokes, funny faces and break up the tension.   For the student who has problems with teacher/student relationship boundaries.... I wouldn't go near that situation with a 10 foot lawyer.  That is when disscussions with the parents about finding a different teacher become important. 
D

[Chrysalis]

Female teachers should never lean over a student

why not?

[Doodle]

Female teachers should never lean over a student

why not?

Any physical contact is not recommended.  My first piano teacher had large breasts and I remember feeling uncomfortable when she would lean into me to show me something.   I am not a touchy person and it was an unwelcomed invasion into my personal space. 
D

[Chrysalis]

especially this one

and it was an unwelcomed invasion

nice choice of words