Death...?

[thierry13]

What do you think his death? Personally, I WANT that there is something after death. I just can't stand the fact of not existing anymore, and that there's just nothing. I DON'T WANT TO DIE IF THERE IS NOTHING! Seriously... what are your toughts.

[Derek]

I do believe its possible for the consciousness (the soul?) to survive past death. For me, Christianity gives me this consolation. Though I may go through the occasional cloud of doubt, I have cultivated my faith to the point where it is now a conviction, and often I feel its a fact.

I have to be careful however as I'm wise enough to realize being Christian is not the only way to connect with God and even feel consoled about death. My parents are good examples..my mom doesn't think of God as a personal God, more in a nebulous "force" way. Which seems to do her just fine! I like having a God to actually talk to verbally, though. I have since I was a small child.

[ted]

I answered "I think not" because I do not know of a reason to suppose consciousness survives the death of the brain. I cannot recollect being conscious before my brain existed and therefore I tend to think I shall not be conscious after my brain has ceased to exist. In fact, the consequences of injury, illness, surgery and so on seem to indicate that the nature of consciousness depends very much on the physical state of the brain, even during life.

Strictly speaking, that is therefore how I should answer the poll.

[Derek]

On the other hand, don't you suppose its also reasonable to think, well I was oblivious for all eternity before I was born, but now that I am conscious it seems infinitely more probable to exist than to not exist?

[ted]

No, not for me. The overriding consideration is that the nature of consciousness really does seem to depend somehow on the physical brain. Sometimes I wish it were not so, but I rather think it is.

[thierry13]

I think it is the most intriguing question you can ask yourself. A whole life of thinking can not solve this question.

[i_m_robot]

self believes what was before will be what comes after

so the question, at least for self, is not what lies after death

but what came before life

[anony]

I think people often forget about the pains in life in considering death. That is, if existence stops with death, then at least all suffering will stop as well.

[pianonut]

i believe we are given a limited amount of information in this lifetime.  it is impossible for us to know what comes before or after, so we have to go by faith.  if we belive there is a God and He existed (as He is Alpha and Omega - beginning and end) then we know life was before us - and will exist after us - especially since He created us in the beginning to have that choice of living forever (regranted through Christ's sacrifice).  say, if eve had taken from the tree of life there would be no death today, but adam and eve were barred from eden after taking of the other tree.

[cadenz]

personally i would think not.... when we die we don't physically go anywhere we are just motionless

when i think about the soul. i think what is the soul? does a soul exist?

if the soul does it exist, perhaps we can define it, we usually come to a conclusion that its something you can't quantify materially. its doesn't have mass or dimensions, much like an idea.

how can a soul live on outside the body? does an "idea" or a "concept" for instance exist outside the body?

without the body what is the soul? is it not made up from our component parts atleast in part? like our brain, and our thoughts? without these what is our soul?

what if somebody was duplicated with some kind of star-trek teleporter gone wrong. would then two souls be existed? i doubt that would be possible due to the nature and the religious idea of the soul. but if that were to occur, (with cloning perhaps) it would have a cause of concern for the idea of the soul.

[klavierkonzerte]

ahhhhhhhh

when would death just come and release from this  B,I*TCH?
life is just to  F*U C K I *N  HARD  and not fair.
then only reason i'm not killing myself is that god would burn my a*s*s  in hell.

and yes there's somthing after death

[pianonut]

to everything there is a season.  when you're younger life can be extremely hard, as you say (as well as when you're much older).  you have to get into a habit of making as good of decisions as are available to you.  your life gets a bit easier as you go along, if you don't rush.  patience IS a virtue, and asking for directions isn't a crime. 

maybe this should be on the 'what's your motto?' but, i used to be rather unfocused.  probably still am to a degree.  but, when you start each day, if you eliminate the priorities they won't pile up from day to day - making friday the worst day of the week - or the weekend.

back to death - i think it is a reality check.  we never know.  just the other day - my husband and i witnessed a three car pile up.  someone was being rolled away on a stretcher to the ambulance.  i thought, that could be me today, tommorrow, anytime.  you just don't know when it will come - so why worry about death itself - as much as living the best you can when you are alive.  then - whatever the result (i believe we are not under judgement tommorrow - if we judge ourselves today - since Christ died for us).  if you accept the forgiveness of sins - then that is a risk you won't have to worry about tommorrow.

[Chrysalis]

after death:

I believe we loose all our human conciousness and return to the state
before we where born.
From there something new begins.
At least i think:)

but here is a hint: Since nothing is sure, don't be bothered by the fact and live life to the fullest so you won't regret it if there is really nothing after this life..

[cadenz]

I also have some reservations about the idea of afterlife.

firstly is the idea of how long do we go on to exist after physically departing? do we have a limited length of afterlife? if so its just death postponed.

if not: there are certain ideas.... such as heaven and reincarnation

heaven is assigned as being the place for good souls to go, yet i think after a few hundred years here it would become incredibly boring. plus other philosophical problems with how so called "good" people would fare in a paradise.
reincarnation reaches problems when you ask the question of what happens should the population of the world decrease? are we all stuck in a waiting room for a very long time /or/ what if the population of the world was completly annihilated, that'd end the cycle.

[Derek]

Yes, being in a state of sleep (non dream state) does turn consciousness off, and being awake turns consciousness on.

But simply linking the presence of consciousness to a physical state does not explain what consciousness is, nor how it works, nor whether it is merely the result of physical processes. Obviously this is not a proof for the supernatural either, but it does at least leave that question open.

[Chrysalis]

nevermind


[edited]

[Bouter Boogie]

I believe in reincarnation so that's a yes 

[ranakor]

i believe it doesn't matter much as we either exist past our bodies death in wich case we live by the full meaning our society gives to it , either we are just bodies that behave in a logical maneer repeating patterns without any way to affect what we do (all is controlled by our brain ) in wich case we don't really exist as much as we think we do and... does it really matter that we die then?

[Chrysalis]

it doesnt matter if we reincarnate or lvie in something elses body anyway.
imagine we reincarnate.... eventually the sun is gonna blow this system up and so we all burn alive, wow that is a happy ending indeed...

[anony]

Don't worry, you still have a few billion years to plan an escape off this system until the sun eats you alive.

[thierry13]

But simply linking the presence of consciousness to a physical state does not explain what consciousness is, nor how it works, nor whether it is merely the result of physical processes.

If it were the result of a physical process, computers would be conscious. Looking at it this way, our brain is only a computer. There is no way to know, but I don't think computers are conscious. So, if computers are unconscious, then the fact that we are conscious is something other than a physical process. But maybe consciousness only begins at a really high point of intelligence. Maybe not. Toughts on this one?

[Bacfokievrahms]

With the experiences that I've had (listening to several Tupac Shakur cd's released after his death  ) that there is indeed an afterlife and it consists entirely of rapping in late nineties backbeats.

But all jokes aside, I'm experientially convinced (to the point that it's become a habitual state of mind) that there is an afterlife. But it'd be hard to explain to the "uninitiated".

[thalbergmad]

I went to see a retrogressional hypnotist who took me back through my previous lifes. At the end of one particular life, he asked me to move forward in time to 2 days after i died.

I was just floating around with no body and in complete peace and then headed towards a light. Without a doubt the strangest experience i have ever had.

In one of my previous lifes, i fought in the battle of Naseby which took part in 1645. I was wounded by a pike and later died. A few months later i visited the actual battleground. It was exactly as i had seen during the hypno session.

This may seem like crap but it was very real to me.

Any of you guys had this done???

[i_m_robot]

self believes what was before will be what comes after

so the question, at least for self, is not what lies after death

but what came before life

perhaps nu

yes  nu that's it

all life begins and ends with nu

[Bacfokievrahms]

What you mean the egyptian god Nu referring to an all encompassing ocean through which other forms arise (perhaps similar to the tantric tattwa akasha) ? The greek letter Nu that refers to frequencies of wave forms but left solely as a variable thus suggesting that all life is variable wave form? What an interesting response robot.

[ted]

Thierry's last post raises the interesting possibility that consciousness is some sort of highly developed epiphenomenon of the physical brain which reaches such critical mass as to exist on its own. I think this would also imply the interesting consequence that all life forms, from a virus upwards, and perhaps all matter, potentially possess consciousness and free will. I think, in fact, John Conway has proposed some such conjecture recently, though I have not read any details. This would be rather nice, as it would mean that the universe would be somehow "alive" in a sense we hadn't realised.

Marvin Minsky, I believe, at one stage asserted that computers would one day attain this critical mass and become conscious. I don't know about you people, but I have difficulty imagining this myself.

[thierry13]

Marvin Minsky, I believe, at one stage asserted that computers would one day attain this critical mass and become conscious. I don't know about you people, but I have difficulty imagining this myself.

If we DO have a soul, then it is impossible. If we have no "soul", we are only REALLY REALLY intelligent, then this is quite possible and probable, in a far future.

[i_m_robot]

Marvin Minsky, I believe, at one stage asserted that computers would one day attain this critical mass and become conscious. I don't know about you people, but I have difficulty imagining this myself.

with the amount of condensed information flowing through computer processors this is more likely than not

or perhaps

its a seemly random flow of information that resulted in the creation of the brain also resulting in its choatic nature

whereas computers are predefined - (ack) but not always coded properly which could result in an event such as above but at a slower rate - unless the obsession with AI continues

self loves to ramble theories (dont always make sense though)

[chopinetta]

  heaven is too good to be true. but since it's good, i'll just believe in that.

[thierry13]

heaven is too good to be true

Why would it be?

[i_m_robot]

perhaps we lived in something much more

but committed something against some sort of rule and were sent here

maybe this is  hell

or maybe some sort of dimensional prison

[lagin]

I agree with pianonut.  Before life and after death there is God.  Him being perfect and me being not, we would not mix, but Jesus came and died and took care of that.  He paid the price for all the bad things I've done, and that I'm inevitably going to do.  All's I had to do was believe that, accept this totally awesome free gift, and ask Him to be my Lord and Saviour.  How could I not love a God who would rather die for me than live without me!  When I die, I'm gonna go be with Jesus, and you guys can say i'm nuttier than a fruitcake and totally irrational, but I don't care, because it's the truth.

[thierry13]

I'm with pianonut
When I die, I'm gonna go be with Jesus, and you guys can say i'm nuttier than a fruitcake and totally irrational, but I don't care, because it's the truth.

That's the spirit!!     

[janice]

That's the spirit!!     

Yes!!!  And I don't care if you guys think I'm nuttier than a fruitcake either, but I can't wait because I will be with Jesus also!  And won't that be one heck of a party?!?!?!

[inkiepoo]

The Bible is very clear about what happens when we die. We are "asleep" until the Lord comes in the clouds to awaken those who have died with faith in Him. We will meet him in the air and we will go to Heaven. The idea that people go to heaven or hell at death is not true. Those who have died before us are not in heaven looking down on us. I wouldn't want those I love to see all the troubles here anyway. Instead they are sleeping in death.

There are two resurrections: the first group to go to Heaven, the second group later will die a final death. There is no eternal burning hell--God is too loving for that. Instead those who do not want to be in Heaven will be consumed by fire until they are dead. It is a "strange act" for God to allow as it is something against His nature. It is not something He enjoys. It is a sad thing for Him to know that there are those who do not love Him and don't want to be in Heaven.

I'd be glad to give all the Bible texts if anyone wants them.

[i_m_robot]

him...he...?

asleep?

sounds too physical

and a lot different from what one usually hears

but sounds better than "you're all going to hell"

[Derek]

My fellow Christians on this thread may think me heretical for suggesting this but I think its possible to be a Christian and not participate in the ritual of it or even subscribe to its theology. It seems to me being a Christian is more of a state of being rather than a set of words. However, I find Christianity's set of words and theology beautiful and also find it helps to augment my ability to behave like a Christian. It seems to me spirituality is quite an individual endeavor, there is no "mould" into which every individual can be shovelled. That is why as Christians we must be careful when evangelizing not to cause those we wish to bring to Christ to feel alienated or evil because they are not yet subscribing to the theology of the religion. It may, indeed, require humility on our part!

[i_m_robot]

yes agreed

saying things like

"look at your neighbor and say unto him unless you change your ways your soul will burn in the eternal flames of hell!!!!!!!!!!"

makes about as much sense as saying there is no god

while it can be understood that the possibility of an existing god is great (who else created this stuff)

it make no sense to assume that one has knowledge of the way in which this being conducts the rules of the universe

[pianonut]

People used to go to a well to draw water.  Much the same with the Holy Spirit.  You have to be around it for it to flourish and rinse and wash.  If you ALWAYS (not talking about missing work or anything) associate with disbelievers, you will be pulled away from the work of the Holy Spirit, which is revived in those who believe.  Sometimes you just see it in the face of someone who believes and are encouraged, but more often it is what a person says that is encouraging.  So many things in this life are DISCOURAGING.  You can tell the fruit by what is said.  If you don't feel brought up or lifted in your spirit, it's not God's Spirit.  Depression is not from God.  Joy is.

PS what i'm trying to say is that very smart people often intuitively know that this life is a rather hard existence, and seemingly pointless.  If there is no point to it, it leads to depression.  if there is a reason to live (for Christ and for others- as He did for us) then there is joy because you are awaiting something that "eye has not seen, nor ear heard."  Something better.  Hope.  Without hope, there is nothing, really.   

[thierry13]

www.near-death.com

Look at this. Proven cases of reincarnation and Near-death experiencers. Really great!

[Chrysalis]

Thierry
Who are you trying to convince... us or yourself
We all wish it is true

[thierry13]

Well, my whole purpose on this topic is simple. I was really questioning myself those days, and I really can't stop on an idea. So, I try to fix a personal opinion, and debating on a subject that can not end is passionating to me too  Arguing on different points of view is cool. I'm not trying to convince anyone. Nor me, because it is impossible to know for SURE SURE.

[pianonut]

it is only proven for the person who has experienced it.  much the same will be for those who have faith, and then are ressurrected.  Christ himself said he would be in the grave for three days and three nights, king David is still sleeping, the saints are said to await the ressurrection.  whether a person is cremated, buried, whatever, they will still await a ressurrection.  they do not have the capacity to ressurrect themselves...or give themselves conciousness.  this is NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN PROVE.  it's like people showing you pictures of UFO's.

I believe the difference between the so-called after death experiences and the AT death experience to be more believable.  i believe the light that people often see is a foretaste of actually meeting our maker.  He would be light of our lives, and never having experienced seeing Him would make it a thrill the very first time.  Also, people have mentioned a warmth and love that would not be a part of reincarnation.  Reincarnation and near death cannot be superimposed.  Either you believe in RA or NU or whatever and believe yourself (god) to control death, or you believe it is beyond your ability to control and rely on God.  If our souls mean anything to him, he would not reincarnate us into different things (but maintain our distinct identities).

[thierry13]

In fact, the conclusions they came at is that you have a soul body, and go to heaven, before God makes you continue your journey into another body. The human is not yet perfect, so we must continue the growth of our soul by living in a physical body. The soul grows with human/physical pain. We can only stay in heaven for the time we do not have to continue soul growth. So our soul leaves us, go in heaven for a certain time, then we have to go back on earth to continue soul growth. And this is an infinite cycle.

[pianonut]

this is what demons would have you believe.  the reason i say that, is that there would be no consequence for sin.  righteousness and sin would be equal.  but, with sin came death. and, since Christ is the only one who has been truly righteous, we have no release from death through the ressurrection unless we are granted it (granted acceptance into His kingdom - either now, or in the judgement to come)  i prefer praying now for repentance and saving grace.  why wait? 

[i_m_robot]

demons

the only demons are demons of the mind (self believes)

those part that keep a person down

that tell a person to just give up

demons being little creatures of satan are excuses... in a way

it's basically saying a person is not in control of his or her life

but guided by things unseen and unheard (physically)

it is highly doubtable there are little creatures whispering in our ears

saying "the devil is in all of us" would be a more accurate statement

it is easier to believe in one's self with the idea that one is aided by a supernatural being

but this is tempory and very fragile (any tragedy could affect it)

but a belief in one's self is much stronger

not some random inspirational whim

but a genuine belief

one much harder to obtain

a belief in self can heal one's self and others or destroy the world around one's self

[rob47]

Being the lazy sack of crap I am I'd rather die than live.  Sleep is my favourite thing in the world.  If you're worried, no, I'm not suicidal in any way, I love my life, but get the impression death would be very relaxing.

[ted]

Part of the trouble with death, it seems to me, is that a very small percentage of the population deal with dying and death every working day of their lives while the rest of us are present at very few deaths. Nowadays it is considered healthy for all manner of people to be present at a birth. The shared experience of a death, however, seems to occur only in cultures and societies we tend to term primitive. I have been present at such deaths and there seems to be a healthier atmosphere with them. I have often wondered if this difference is a fault of our "advanced" culture, and that demystifying the process, so to speak, might induce a greater comfort, and a realisation of "what's what"  than the all too frequently feared and institutionalised ritual of death.

Not strictly to do with the topic, but relevant nonetheless.

[Siberian Husky]

Being the lazy sack of crap I am I'd rather die than live.  Sleep is my favourite thing in the world.  If you're worried, no, I'm not suicidal in any way, I love my life, but get the impression death would be very relaxing.

self thinks rob needs a dime-bag

[Chrysalis]

are you a robot too ?