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Topic: Going against the norm  (Read 2828 times)

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Going against the norm
on: May 24, 2005, 01:53:12 PM
How often do you go against the norm when performing? How is it looked upon? Do you ever get punished (bad critics or somethign) for being an artist? What are your stories?

boliver

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #1 on: May 24, 2005, 02:04:18 PM
 "Jesus Christ!  Doesn't this kid play anything NORMAL!?!?"--overhead by me on stage while playing a concert in Paul Hall (Juilliard)

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline quantum

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #2 on: May 24, 2005, 02:08:19 PM
Silence..................

Sometimes occurs after one of my insane improvisations.  See Audition forum for an example recording. 

I still don't know if people like the stuff or not. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #3 on: May 24, 2005, 03:32:55 PM
"Jesus Christ!  Doesn't this kid play anything NORMAL!?!?"--overhead by me on stage while playing a concert in Paul Hall (Juilliard)

koji (STSD)

geez, during the concert?

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #4 on: May 24, 2005, 06:25:40 PM
geez, during the concert?

  Yes, said in that elderly stage whisper which somehow carries more than shouting.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline i_m_robot

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #5 on: May 24, 2005, 06:50:54 PM
let self tell you a secret

it's not a whisper
WATASHI NO NAMAE WA

AI EMU ROBATO DESU

立派のエビの苦闘及びは立派である

Offline Kassaa

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #6 on: May 24, 2005, 07:11:56 PM
haha, what were you playing koji?

Niw, I once played Chopwaltz Op. 18 on a extremely heavy grand piano, so my repeating notes were crap, and in the intermission, I heard some people say: "that chopin waltz was a bit too fast".

Offline paris

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #7 on: May 24, 2005, 07:24:06 PM
when i was younger we had exams and i played bach.

after my performance one teacher said that I played bach like i was playing chopin  ;D  ugh...
Critics! If one would be a critic, one should begin with self-criticism !
    -Franz Liszt

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #8 on: May 24, 2005, 08:56:46 PM
when i was younger we had exams and i played bach.

after my performance one teacher said that I played bach like i was playing chopin  ;D  ugh...

I was told I play bach like beethoven and haydn like crap. I was auditioning with a Haydn sonata once. The jurors complained back and forth while I was playing. Needless to say I hardly got crap for scholarships.

boliver

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #9 on: May 24, 2005, 09:09:16 PM
haha, what were you playing koji?

  It was, admittedly a rather long and difficult program, but then again, the doctoral recitals at Juilliard are required to be difficult and somewhat original.  I recall doing the Copland Sonata, Scriabin 4th and 7th sonatas, some Soler, and some other weird things.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #10 on: May 24, 2005, 09:21:29 PM
  It was, admittedly a rather long and difficult program, but then again, the doctoral recitals at Juilliard are required to be difficult and somewhat original.  I recall doing the Copland Sonata, Scriabin 4th and 7th sonatas, some Soler, and some other weird things.

koji (STSD)

did you get your doctorate yet? If I remember correctly you were suppose to graduate soon.

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #11 on: May 24, 2005, 09:22:45 PM
did you get your doctorate yet? If I remember correctly you were suppose to graduate soon.

  Yup; ceremony was last Friday.

"dr" ::) Attwood

"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline jlh

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #12 on: May 24, 2005, 09:30:29 PM
  Yup; ceremony was last Friday.

"dr" ::) Attwood



Congrats!  Angeletti would be proud!

Me??  I've got probably another 8 years for that title...
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #13 on: May 24, 2005, 09:31:52 PM
  Yup; ceremony was last Friday.

"dr" ::) Attwood



congrats all around.

Offline ahmedito

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #14 on: May 24, 2005, 09:33:02 PM
Some months ago I played Liszt Hungarian 12th... right in the middle, before the horrible trills in the high register I hit completely the wrong chord. My teacher kept asking me to really play it freely, completely changing the rythm and doing huge rubatos... I was so fed up, after a rehearsal where apparently it wasnt enough... that when I hit that chord wrong, I just resolved it into I dont know what, did some huge arppegio all the way up to the piano, and started improvising on the themes, everything in octaves and really loud up and down, some corny sequences, the theme in a very mushy cantabile (like 3 extra minutes.... then I went into the trills and continued the piece as if nothing happened.) I heard one of those whispers Koji mentioned:

"What the hell is he doing?"

...


My teacher loved it, by the way :)
This summer when I get back home and have a computer of my own, Im definately putting some of my favorite stuff on the audition room.
For a good laugh, check out my posts in the audition room, and tell me exactly how terrible they are :)

Online ted

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #15 on: May 24, 2005, 09:47:57 PM
 I am neither professional nor performer so the social consequences of doing this do not concern me. I feel that anyone working sincerely in any artistic endeavour must constantly push the boundaries of what is "normal". How else are we going to discover anything ? If something new works, fine, if it doesn't, fine too, we've learned something and we'll try again. I see even less point in worrying about what other people consider normal in music. Just do whatever you want to do. Rules are for fools.

Koji:

Congratulations on your wonderful achievement. I hope that this helps put your musical future on a secure basis and gives you more freedom to play as you wish.
"Mistakes are the portals of discovery." - James Joyce

Offline Goldberg

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #16 on: May 24, 2005, 10:43:38 PM
Fernandito:  ;D haha!

I've done a similar thing, but nowhere near as crazy! It was...hmmmm...let me think. I believe it was during a Chopin nocturne. Yes, that's right, op. 55 no. 1, a piece that I was never entirely sympathetic to, and which I wasn't very interested in learning at first, but it was actually the first piece my last teacher assigned me and I wanted to give him a good impression. At the end there is that descending deal with both hands playing two separate melodies (though it is by no means complicated counterpoint or anything) with rather awkward fingerings, and that section is followed by a long arpeggio sequence that I never really took the time to  *learn*. Well, as might well be overwhelmingly obvious I more or less made both things up as I went, but at the same time the end result was pretty similar to what was actually written...

The most I've "screwed around" was in the HR6 when I performed it at my school to musically illiterate people. I skipped that C-sharp major transition section because I couldn't play it, I changed all of the cadenzas at will and on the spot, wrote in at least two of my own (short) cadenzas, and changed the dynamics moderately here or there. It was partially modeled after one of Cziffra's recordings...not quite as successful though!

But to put it more generally for the topic, I advocate changing scores around on the spot for exciting spontaniety, but it depends on the music. I have no problem messing around with the HR6 for instance, but would never touch a note of a Chopin Ballade, or indeed a "better" Liszt piece. And as for playing unique or obscure pieces, I am also quite interested in it but haven't had much chance to play such a piece lately, and probably won't for a while unless I can whip up a few Godowsky etudes or Alkan pieces. I think the best I can do is Ornstein's "9 Miniatures" which I hope to learn and perform over the summer, or perhaps Alkan's 3 Romantic Andantes.

One thing that has more appeal, though, is unknown Baroque, pre-Baroque, or Classical music--and for the latter I consider Haydn to be unknown, though there are hundreds of better examples. I'd like to play pieces like Gould used to play, from Gibbons and Byrd and so on, and even some pieces by earlier salon pianists like Hummel, Kalkbrenner, and Moscheles, whose works may not be upper-class but are certainly worth it for creating that kind of historical atmosphere!

Offline rob47

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #17 on: May 25, 2005, 05:11:36 AM
what you need to do, re: going against the norm, is make your performances the handbook for what the norm is, thus defining in your going against-edness what the new norm is.

*shut up rob.*
"Phenomenon 1 is me"
-Alexis Weissenberg

Offline teresa_b

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #18 on: May 27, 2005, 11:24:48 AM
Hi all,

This doesn't exactly qualify as going against the norm in any artistic sense, but at age 15 I was playing in a student recital and I stopped right in the middle of Bach and said (unfortunately, audibly enough to hear)  "s--t."   :-[

It cost me my conert career.  (OK, not really.)  But my sister, who heard the blasphemy, has not let me forget it to this day.

All the best, Teresa

P.S.  KUDOS to you,  Koji.

Offline teresa_b

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #19 on: May 27, 2005, 11:27:08 AM
Oops, I meant "concert" career.   My conert career is doing fine.  :D

Teresa

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #20 on: May 27, 2005, 11:28:34 AM
Hi all,

This doesn't exactly qualify as going against the norm in any artistic sense, but at age 15 I was playing in a student recital and I stopped right in the middle of Bach and said (unfortunately, audibly enough to hear)  "s--t."   :-[

It cost me my conert career.  (OK, not really.)  But my sister, who heard the blasphemy, has not let me forget it to this day.

All the best, Teresa

P.S.  KUDOS to you,  Koji.
reminds me of my girlfriend. She was playing some piece for recital. she was doing real well until the end. She completely blanked on the last chord. She tried a couple that were obviously wrong, then proceeded to stand-up and say I am sorry and ran off stage.

boliver

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #21 on: May 27, 2005, 11:29:38 AM
Oops, I meant "concert" career.   My conert career is doing fine.  :D

Teresa

I read over your post a couple of times and didn't even notice that. LOL.

Offline ludwig

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #22 on: May 27, 2005, 11:36:34 AM
  Yup; ceremony was last Friday.

"dr" ::) Attwood




oh Wow, congrats Thracozaag, I'm not sure about the PHD programs in US, can you enlighten me? What kind of things are there? Or do you have to write a thesis and research? Can you do a purely performance one??



Anyways, on topic, I often do stupid things when I was young and played wrong notes in concerts... like turn to the audience and smile or chuckle, and continue...hehe One time I completely had a blank, so improvised for like 4 bars before returning to the original piece...hehe :)
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."ÜÜÜ

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #23 on: May 27, 2005, 12:36:47 PM

oh Wow, congrats Thracozaag, I'm not sure about the PHD programs in US, can you enlighten me? What kind of things are there? Or do you have to write a thesis and research? Can you do a purely performance one??


  Technically, it's not a Phd, because it's a performance degree (you can get a Phd in musicology, though) and therefore is termed a Doctorate in Musical Arts (DMA).  The program at Juilliard consisted of classwork, 3 solo recitals, 1 lecture recital, written and oral comprehensives, and a thesis. 

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline ludwig

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #24 on: May 27, 2005, 01:30:21 PM
Thanks Thracozaag.... I'm just curious to know what it invovles..Is the DMA a 3 year degree? And the PHDs in the US, can it be done through music education too? Or just musicology? (Sorry about the questions, this is probably what I'll be doing next year)....thanks in advance for any info (promise last off-topic post)



"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."ÜÜÜ

Offline thracozaag

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #25 on: May 27, 2005, 02:42:52 PM
Thanks Thracozaag.... I'm just curious to know what it invovles..Is the DMA a 3 year degree? And the PHDs in the US, can it be done through music education too? Or just musicology? (Sorry about the questions, this is probably what I'll be doing next year)....thanks in advance for any info (promise last off-topic post)





  If you're psycho, you could probably do it in 3 years, but generally people take at least 4 to do it.  I believe the phd's in US CAN be done through music education as well, but don't hold me to it.

koji (STSD)
"We have to reach a certain level before we realize how small we are."--Georges Cziffra

Offline Corsair

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #26 on: May 27, 2005, 04:33:42 PM
Fernandito:  ;D haha!

I've done a similar thing, but nowhere near as crazy! It was...hmmmm...let me think. I believe it was during a Chopin nocturne. Yes, that's right, op. 55 no. 1, a piece that I was never entirely sympathetic to, and which I wasn't very interested in learning at first, but it was actually the first piece my last teacher assigned me and I wanted to give him a good impression. At the end there is that descending deal with both hands playing two separate melodies (though it is by no means complicated counterpoint or anything) with rather awkward fingerings, and that section is followed by a long arpeggio sequence that I never really took the time to  *learn*. Well, as might well be overwhelmingly obvious I more or less made both things up as I went, but at the same time the end result was pretty similar to what was actually written...

yeah, i hate op. 9 no 2 in particular, it's nothing more than a middle class favourite. last time i played, i did it as an encore and extended the little four-note trill thing at the end (the one that beginner pianists think is some kinda deathtrap) so that it lasted for about 30 seconds, it was intended to be something of a scathing quip at the banality of the piece and this got a few laughs but afterwards i still got people saying "the trill at the end was too long". ::)

Offline Torp

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #27 on: May 27, 2005, 05:08:50 PM
I'm all for people going against the norm...I just hate it when people go against the norm just to go against the norm.  Not sure I can explain what I mean by that.  I guess it seems like people often try to be "different" without having any substance to there differences.  In other words, go against the norm to make a statement, just make sure you have a statement to make.  Otherwise, it just seems to come across as trite and shallow.

Jef

PS - Dr. Thracozaag, congratulations on your achievement.
Don't let your music die inside you.

Offline Mozartian

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #28 on: May 27, 2005, 08:17:42 PM
I don't understand the prejudice of people against lesser known composers. I mean, really- who cares who wrote it if it's good music?
It's especially infuriating nowadays, when you have all these really famous and popular composers/"musicians" who can't compose/perform worth anything; and then all these composers (who wrote truly beautiful music, music deserving of the name) from the past are completely ignored... ugh. Makes absolutely no sense.

Okay okay, rant over.
::)
[lau] 10:01 pm: like in 10/4 i think those little slurs everywhere are pointless for the music, but I understand if it was for improving technique

Offline SirSteinway

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Re: Going against the norm
Reply #29 on: May 28, 2005, 04:10:49 AM
I love practicing non-comformity in my music.  During worship services on Sundays I get odd looks from my piano teacher, who is our organist; she is directly across the stage from the piano and she shoots "amused" looks at me all the time.  ;)
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