Compound time...again

[lea]

Hi its me again......

ages and ages ago i sent in a post thing about compound time, simple time etc

amee replied and this is what she said(please read right down to the bottom pleeze   )

What is compound time?  
What is duple, triple, and quadruple time?  
 
I'll try my best to explain, although I'm not crystal clear on the facts myself.    
 
Compound time is when the beats can be divided into threes, for example a dotted crotchet (it can be divided into three quavers).  Examples of compound time are 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8.  The opposite of compound time is simple time, where the beats can be divided into twos (like a crotchet beat can be divided into two quavers).  Examples of simple time are 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4.
 
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Hopefully you have understood my explanation on compound time  
 
Now, the question is what is duple, triple, and quadruple time?  You can describe time signatures in two ways,  
 
1) as duple, triple, or quadruple  
2) as simple or compound.  
 
So here are some full descriptions of time signatures:  
 
2/4 or 2/2 - simple duple time  
3/4, 3/2, 3/8 - simple triple time  
4/4, 4/2 - simple quadruple time  
 
6/8 - compound duple time  
9/8 - compound triple time  
12/8 - compound quadruple time  
 
So quite simply, the top number in a time signature refers to whether it is duple, triple, or quadruple time.  2 or 6 is for duple, 3 or 9 is for triple, and 4 or 12 is for quadruple.  Here is where the division comes in; in compound time you need to divide the top number of the time signature by 3 to get whether it is duple, triple, etc.    
 
The bottom number refers to whether it is simple or compound.    



.........so basically amee was explaining how to use maths (in her case division) to get the top number of the time signature

is there nyway u can use maths to get the bottom number.....To find out what kind of time the time signature is you  do what???(using maths eg division and using ur knowledge of how simple time is in 2, etc)


i would really appreciate it if u cud help

thanx

lea

ps thanks a bunch 2 88keys for that interesting note intervals thing


and if u have nything to do with maths and music (NOT THE MOZART EFFECT!!!) then pleeze instant message me or reply 2 dis convo

thanx


lea

[88keys]

There is absolutely no way for deducing the bottom number of the time signature by a mathematical formula, because it has no pure musical meaning.

The bottom number simply tells you how long the unit beat is.  For example, in a time signature of 3/4, you count 3 quarter notes per measure. A signature of 3/8 means you count 3 eighth notes per measure.

Musically, 3/4 and 3/8 are the same thing: You count 3 "somethings" per measure. The only difference in the notation.

So how do you choose the bottom number for the time signature of a piece?

In times past, it was mostly a matter of convention: Double time was always 2/4, Quadraple time was always 4/4, and compund times always had 8 on the bottom (as in 6/8, 9/8, 12/8).

For triple time, the common choices were 3/4 and 3/8, with the decision usually based on readability and clarity. Dancelike forms such as waltzes, minuets  and scherzos were an exception - they were nearly always written in 3/4, regardless of how confusing this notation was (see the scherzo of Beethoven's 9th - written in 3/4, but would have been much clearer in 3/8).

In more recent music (beginning in the early 19th century), clarity gradually overcame tradition as the most important factor for deciding the bottom number. Mendelson, for example, had no problem writing his famous scherzo for Midsummer's Night Dream in 3/8 (rather than the traditional but cumbersome 3/4). Debussy and Mahler have plenty of piece written in 6/4 (rather than 6/8), or 4/8 (rather than 4/4).

If you ever see such time signatures, just remember the bottom number has no effect on the "feel" of the music. A piece written in, say, 4/8 should be approached exactly as if it was written in 4/4. Don't forget, however, to count the rythmic units you are expected to (i.e. don't count in quarter notes, if the bottom number isn't 4...).

[frederic]

i never use maths when i count.
For compound time, just thought that there are 3 in each beat instead of 2. So it's sort of like not writing as a triplet in simple time.

Im not too sure what amee means by dividing the two numbers or something.
The bottom number is the note value. 4 for crochet (quarter), 2 for minim (half), 8 for quaver (eighth), and 16 for semiquaver (sixteenth), and so on...
The top is simply telling you how many of these notes are there in a bar.
So whats this division?

[88keys]

The top number divided by the bottom number tells you the total note value per measure.

i.e. in 2/4 time, every measure can hold a minim (half note), because the fraction 2/4 is equal to 1/2.  It is no coincidence that time signatures look, visually, like a  fraction (with the numerator on top and the denomenator at the bottom) - from the technical viewpoint, time signatures are fractions.

Of-course, time signatures are far more than that. As far as the musical meaning is concerned, what matters is the number of beats per measure and which of them are the strong/weak beats. The division thing, while technically true, is not very relevant to actually understanding the music.

To further illustrate this point:

Mathematically speaking, the fractions 3/4 and 6/8 are equal. But 3/4 and 6/8 are completely different time signatures: One is triple time, while the other is compound double time. Even though the two time signature can hold exactly the same total note value per measure (3/4 of a whole note), the internal division of the measure into beats is different: 3 beats/measure in the case of 3/4, versus 2 beats/measure in the case of 6/8.

On other hand, 3/4 and 3/8 are musically the same thing. To all practical purposes (except notation) they are identical time signatures. The fact that, numerically, 3/4 is twice as large as 3/8 is not very relevant - it just means that in 3/4 time, all notes would be notated at twice their values when compared to 3/8 time.

[lea]

hey freddy and 88keys

thanks soooo much!!! i understood some of it, but some thigs i still dont

i was wondering, if The bottom number refers to whether it is simple or compound then how do u tell what numbers are compound and what ones are simple??

thanx soooooooooooooooooooooooo much 4 all your great help!!

lea  

[88keys]

The bottom number does not refer to whether the time signature is simple or compound. It merely tells you the notated duration of each beat.

It is actually the top number which tells you whether the time signature is simple or compound: If it is 6, 9 or 12 then we're dealing with compound time.

In other words: 6/4 is no less "compound time" than 6/8. It is just that a signature of 6/4 is extremely rare in classical music (although it is quite common in music from the late 19th and 20th century).