Can women compose as well as men?

[contrapunctus]

I have had the urge to do a controversial topic, so here it is. I am just trying to start a philosophical debate. Do women have the faculties to compose as well as men? I am asking this because, as you know no major composer is woman and there are only a few minor ones.
I can only think of four reasons as to why this could be:
1) Women do not have the faculties to compose as well as men
2) women were supressed by the male-dominated society at the time
3) women rarely if never got formal musical education at the time
4) Combination of the aformentioned

I do not think number 2 could be a possibility because many women authors and poets were extremly succesful during those times. They always found a way to get there work published ( nom de plume).
I do not think number 3 could could be a possibility either because look at the Big Five Russian nationalists: they composed some great music without a formal conservatoire education. Therefore, only number 1 could be the answer.

I am not trying to be a chauvanist; I am just trying to start a philosophical debate.

[Fugue]

Well, Clara Schumman and Fanny Mendelson (not spelled right, I know. I can't spell at all) were both composers who wrote some splendid music, but both of them stopped composing after their husband's death in the case of the former, and the behest of her brother in the latter. Personally, I feel that it is a comination of 2 and 3, for although women did recieve some musical education in the past centuries, very, very few ever got any serious musical education. And since, excluding prodigies such as Mozart, composition is a discipline that requires extensive training, very few women composers were to be found. Hope that made sense (literally, I just had some new medication my doctor prescribed me, and I feel abit drowsy.)

[thalbergmad]

i see no reason why a woman cannot compose as well as a man.

Perhaps they know that it will be several times harder for them to succeed, so they don't bother.

[lostinidlewonder]

I agree that it was because there was no system for furthering education for women. An intelligent woman wasn't regarded as highly as they are today, in fact it was better that the woman looked after the family, brought up the children and satisfied their husbands rather than get distracted in their own interests. That was the patriarchal system in its heyday.

Cecile Chaminade is another woman who wrote brilliant music from someone who was denied education in the male dominated society of her time.

[musicsdarkangel]

I bet that there were a few great female composers that we never will know about.

[ted]

Amy Beach and Mary Lou Williams also spring to mind along with quite a few others. I think the answer to the original poster's question is clearly yes. Therefore the reasons for the general lack of prominence of female composers are probably social.

[pianonut]

you can read about some women composers that are not freqently discussed, but known in their day. 

history of women composers:
www.ambache.co.uk/women.htm

and current nyc women composers:
www.ibiblio.org/nywc/

you're right that there are less of them.  and, i don't have a clue why.  i often feel inspired to write down things that come to me (just like poetry).  just never seem to have enough time to finish them completely and get them corrected by a professional composer.

[ted]

"just never seem to have enough time to finish them completely and get them corrected by a professional composer."

Why would you do that, Pianonut ? Either the work is what you meant to say or it is not, and the only person who can judge that is you.

[pianonut]

thanks Ted!  you boost my confidence.  my pieces are always on the short side.  this keeps me from feeling like a full-fleged composer.

[contrapunctus]

I agree that it was because there was no system for furthering education for women.

The Big Five Russian nationalists which included rimsy-korsakov and mussorgsky wrote some very good music, but they were not formally educated in music

[dmk]

There are many good Australian composers I can think of who are female:

    -   the late MIRIAM HYDE: https://www.amcoz.com.au/comp/h/mhyde.htm.  

    -   ELENA KATS-CHERNIN: https://www.amcoz.com.au/comp/k/ekatsc.htm

    -   MARGARET SUTHERLAND: https://www.amcoz.com.au/comp/s/msutland.htm

    -   ANN CARR-BOYD: https://www.amcoz.com.au/comp/c/acarboyd.htm

The list goes on.....

[contrapunctus]

This is supposed to be a philosophical debate on whether men are superior to women in the issue of composing, not a "name as many female composers as you can" contest.

[Nana_Ama]

Of course they can!  We all have brains don't we?  I don't see why women can't compose just as well as men simply because they are not as famous as men.  I think it's more that they don't have to opportunity to compose that would hold them back, however this does not make it impossible

[mikeyg]

the average woman can compose just as well as the average male, just like the average  woman has the same IQ as an average male.  However, men have much greater extremes.  This is partly why there are more "great" male thinkers.  this may also be why there are more great male composers.  So few people who try to compose become great composers, and so that upper eschelon is probably 90 percent male.

But women can still do great things.  What I said wasn't trying to be sexist.

Don't hurt me.

[m1469]

Well, first of all, Contrapunctus, I understand that you are simply trying to take a position of extreme for the sake of "trying to start a philosophical debate."  So you say, this thread is not about who can name the most women composers, however within your initial argument you state :

I am asking this because I do not know of a prominent women composer in the Baroque, classical, romantic, or early twentieth century eras, and I have read extensive biographies of most major and semi-major composers from those eras.

So is this thread about knowing the women who compose or not ?  If it is,  then people pointing out women who have composed/do compose seems entirely appropriate and should sufficiently satisfy the argument.  There are many women who compose, and not knowing about them can be very related to social issues.  But this is not really your point, is it...(?)  So I would be inclined to throw out entirely that sentence which I have quoted above because for that matter, there are also many men composers whom people do not know about.

Your real question is about whether women have the faculties to compose or not, and I assume that you mean, as do men.  There are a few things wrong with this also in that, you are still using known men composers as a basis for comparison (who's got it, who hasn't ?) when it is not really about whether the composer is known or not.  And if there were not any known composers (including our own self), we would not know anything of composition.  So yes, who did what is important afterall. I would say that the very fact that women can be listed as "prominent" (which means what in this context exactly?  Popularity?  Fame? ) composers is enough to prove that they do have the faculties to compose... but this will not satisfy the debate, obviously.

To take it further, what exactly are those "faculties" that you speak of then ?  Intelligence?  Are you saying this is solely a quality of the male?  If so, then this thread is not really about composition at all (which is more likely the case) but about man vs woman (not a recommended battle... but bring it on .. just joking... but seriously... bring it on... no really, let's not... he he).  So is the faculty for composition that of inventiveness?  Is this a solely masculine quality then?  ETC.

Without using accomplished men as examples to prove your point or without using unaccomplished women, please prove it to me anyway.  What exactly is the point here, by the way?

m1469

[Siberian Husky]

Dear m1469,

Aint nothin better than a strong opinionated woman,

Sencirely Your Gardener
Luis The Mexican

[contrapunctus]

Well, first of all, Contrapunctus, I understand that you are simply trying to take a position of extreme for the sake of "trying to start a philosophical debate."  So you say, this thread is not about who can name the most women composers, however within your initial argument you state :

So is this thread about knowing the women who compose or not ?  If it is,  then people pointing out women who have composed/do compose seems entirely appropriate and should sufficiently satisfy the argument.  There are many women who compose, and not knowing about them can be very related to social issues.  But this is not really your point, is it...(?)  So I would be inclined to throw out entirely that sentence which I have quoted above because for that matter, there are also many men composers whom people do not know about.

Your real question is about whether women have the faculties to compose or not, and I assume that you mean, as do men.  There are a few things wrong with this also in that, you are still using known men composers as a basis for comparison (who's got it, who hasn't ?) when it is not really about whether the composer is known or not.  And if there were not any known composers (including our own self), we would not know anything of composition.  So yes, who did what is important afterall. I would say that the very fact that women can be listed as "prominent" (which means what in this context exactly?  Popularity?  Fame? ) composers is enough to prove that they do have the faculties to compose... but this will not satisfy the debate, obviously.

To take it further, what exactly are those "faculties" that you speak of then ?  Intelligence?  Are you saying this is solely a quality of the male?  If so, then this thread is not really about composition at all (which is more likely the case) but about man vs woman (not a recommended battle... but bring it on .. just joking... but seriously... bring it on... no really, let's not... he he).  So is the faculty for composition that of inventiveness?  Is this a solely masculine quality then?  ETC.

Without using accomplished men as examples to prove your point or without using unaccomplished women, please prove it to me anyway.  What exactly is the point here, by the way?

m1469

You obviously want me to bring it on, so I will. Females have many innate diferences compared to males such as childberth, etc. So, it is possible that females could have innate intellegence diferences too. The fact that human beings evolved in the way where males must hunt, and females stay home and raise children makes it even more likely that there is a fundamental innate defference in the intellegence of the sexes. Hunting involves bigger brain capacity than does nursing for obvious reasons. This difference of intellegence may have found its way to modern times. I admit that there are many many females who are smarter than myself, but as mikeyg said earlier there are many more males considered great in all fields than females, and I believe that this ability to exceed far far beyond the average which is much more common in men in today's society shows that men are more capable of extreme intellegence than women.  

[Siberian Husky]

OMG dude..your doing the stupidest thing in the world..your facts are subjectively driven emulettes of verbal diarrhea..i mean..hey..im a manly kinda guy..but i havea great deal of respect for women and i do not doubt their capacties nor do i favor a man's capacity over a womans...to do so is to attribute an uneducated over opinionated subjective fixation on miniscule "facts" that are reenforced by vague data that characteristics ambiguity to a magnitude that couldnt concretely solidify ANYTHING for the sake of holding an argument like this..in other words..just give up

[contrapunctus]

OMG dude..your doing the stupidest thing in the world..your facts are subjectively driven emulettes of verbal diarrhea..i mean..hey..im a manly kinda guy..but i havea great deal of respect for women and i do not doubt their capacties nor do i favor a man's capacity over a womans...to do so is to attribute an uneducated over opinionated subjective fixation on miniscule "facts" that are reenforced by vague data that characteristics ambiguity to a magnitude that couldnt concretely solidify ANYTHING for the sake of holding an argument like this..in other words..just give up

You are just B. S. ing. I think that there is a need for this kind of study. Every body seems to think it is horrible when somebody suggests that there is any defference between the sexes at all. I agree with Harvard's president that this needs to be investigated. I said earlier that there are many many women smarter than me. But I think it is insane that you politically correct liberals are inhibiting the progress on this subject which most definately needs to be investigated. Oh, and I have great respect for women's abilities also, and you said "stupidest." Funny.